• ProcurementCat@feddit.de
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    11 months ago

    It doesnt matter what russia says or does in this regard. What is important is if Turkey sticks with it and provides protection for those ships or not.

    • sunbeam60@lemmy.one
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      11 months ago

      Ah, yes, Turkey, the dependable ally which still hasn’t agreed to Sweden’s accession to NATO!

        • sunbeam60@lemmy.one
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          11 months ago

          All I’ve seen are words from Turkey. First the words were “we won’t accept Sweden”. Then the words were “we will accept Sweden”. Still Turkey has not officially accepted Sweden and Sweden is not yet a member. Erdogan says a lot. His actions is what I count.

          • mim@lemmy.sdf.org
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            11 months ago

            His country’s economy is in the toilet, the last thing he needs it to antagonise one of their largest (if not the largest) trading partner: the EU.

            Doubt he will continue blocking it, but time will tell.

    • 133arc585
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      11 months ago

      Every nation should kick Russians out, block their accounts,

      The Russian people are not making these decisions. Moreover, those who have left Russia are probably among the least likely to support Russia anyway.

      What good comes from attacking the people of a country because you disagree with the leadership of the country? This is the same disgusting rhetoric used in the USA after 9/11 where there were widespread calls to kick out ALL Muslims and people from the middle east.

      • hitwright@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Something around 80 percent of russians actually support Russian imperialistic goals. You can’t exactly pity them at this point. The protests were almost non existant in Russia.

        Even if Putin drops down tommorow, it’s likely that the whole Russia expansion desire remains. Shit even Navalny doesn’t want to drop occupied Georgia.

        • rolandtb303
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          11 months ago

          Those polls you got your source from are actually polls done by state-run polling facilities. of course poeple are going to say what the state wants to hear. here’s a video on it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uQCNjIHeqU

          Btw, by saying that “80% of Russians support this war”, you’re spreading Russian state propaganda.

          And of course protests in Russia died down, people get jailed for like 10-15 years in prison if they protest, so by fear of getting jailed, protestors stop. it isn’t pretty but it’s how the system works.

          • hitwright@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            These stats are more or less what is reported in my country. Can’t fact check everything, since it’s more or less the first time it got some shade. Most pro-russian populus here also support Putin and find Ukrainians as nazis, so this didn’t seem far fetched.

            Seeing different level of protests in Russia (against the war) and in Belarus (against Lukashenko) does show that participation was/is quite little. Even before the war, there were larger protests after Navalny.

            There were a few Russians I can deeply respect and can call good russians, but they are the minority sadly. For example Ruslan Zizin.

        • priapus@sh.itjust.works
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          11 months ago

          Where do those stats come from? The stats I have found are significantly lower than that. It is also important to note that Russians who are against Putin and the war are far less likely to respond to a survey asking them about the war. In the survey I found, only 18% of citizens surveyed that were against Putin felt comfortable sharing this. It’s not at all unlikely that many were too scared to say they were against the war.

          It feels you are heavily oversimplifying this to support your beliefs. Even if it were true that most Russians supported the war, many of them are faced with constant propaganda, and it would not be entirely fair to contribute this to any moral failing.

          • rolandtb303
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            11 months ago

            He’s parroting Russian state-led polls, which many people in Russia either just hang up because they just don’t want to answer, or say what the state wants to hear. You can see how lopsided this becomes, with many people just saying yes because they don’t want to be jailed for opposing the government. Even if some people do have the guts to say no, the votes saying yes will overshadow them massively.

            And ironically by that guy spreading that poll and notion around, he’s spreading Russian propaganda.

            • LwL@lemmy.fmhy.ml
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              11 months ago

              Replace russian with jews and think about how your comment sounds again.

              Of course it’s not like all russians are against this war, both because of propaganda and the imperialism in the culture (though again that’s very perpetuated by propaganda). That doesn’t mean all of them support it, the numbers are also definitely not actually 80%, and even if they were 80% i can’t put into words how fucked up it is to discriminate against the other 20%, almost 30 million people, just because you perceive the majority as being bad.

      • Hubi@feddit.de
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        11 months ago

        People are sanctioned, people are unhappy, people protest their government that allowed it to happen. It’s how you put pressure on the leadership of a country. How else would you solve this? You can’t force Russia’s hand in this, but you can make the situation for their people uncomfortable.

        The alternative would be to say “Russia pls open the grain corridor again” and I think you can imagine their response.

        • SolanumChillEse@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          There’s an abundance of contemporary evidence that shows this doesn’t work but it’s basically a foreign policy meme at this point. We tried this in Iraq and it just ended up killing a bunch of children and had no effect on Saddam’s hold on power.

        • 133arc585
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          11 months ago

          People are sanctioned, people are unhappy, people protest their government that allowed it to happen. It’s how you put pressure on the leadership of a country.

          This doesn’t follow. First of all, no change happens internally in the USA despite its own citizens complaining of material conditions; so to say that people being unhappy and protesting necessarily leads to change is false. Second, every other sentence people say about Russia is calling it “authoritarian”, “dictatorship”, etc: you can’t simultaneously pretend its an authoritarian dictatorship and also that the people protesting have any say in its trajectory.

          You can’t force Russia’s hand in this, but you can make the situation for their people uncomfortable.

          Which is just wrong. You’re making the everyday civilian uncomfortable. You aren’t doing anything against those who actually make decisions. Instead you’re punishing someone for their nationality, or where they were born or choose to live. It’s punishment for something they didn’t do and it’s not constructive.

          The alternative would be to say “Russia pls open the grain corridor again” and I think you can imagine their response.

          Sure, I understand that you’re saying Russia isn’t going to just cooperate with requests. But it’s also not going to be any more likely to cooperate because you’ve made the lives of their citizens, or people of Russian ethnicity living on foreign soil, any harder.

          In the end this just punishes innocent people and does nothing to achieve the stated goal.

        • BartsBigBugBag@lemmy.tf
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          11 months ago

          Sanctions have never once shown to lead to regime change. There’s entire books on the effects of sanctions, it can actually serve to strengthen support. The primary effect of sanctions, in every case though, is suffering for the regular people.

      • XbSuper@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Because the only way to force change in a country, is to push it’s people to make that change. It mught not be pretty, but it’s reality.

        • muspimerol@feddit.de
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          11 months ago

          And what power do Russian expatriots have to effect change in their home country exactly? Huge numbers left precisely because they disagree with the politics, which poses a huge demographic problem for Russia. Forcing them to go back would be counterproductive, not to mention plain xenophobic.

        • 133arc585
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          11 months ago

          You can’t simultaneously call Russia an authoritarian dictatorship and say that its people have the power to change the country’s trajectory.

          Because the only way to force change in a country, is to push it’s people to make that change.

          The correct way to say this is: “the only way to force change in a country, is to push the people who can make change to make that change”.

          • jscummy@sh.itjust.works
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            11 months ago

            Because authoritarian dictators have never been overthrown by their people? Not entirely disagreeing with you, it’s a big hurdle to overcome for change but it does happen in plenty of countries

      • AnarchoYeasty@beehaw.org
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        11 months ago

        Except that isn’t remotely true. For example we can set up trade embargos and cut Russia off from all trade under US sphere of influence so they’ll only be able to trade with Brazil India Iran and China. We can also seize foreign owned assets owned by Russians in western nations. More aggressively we can send US/NATO war ships to Ukraine to provide an armed escort for Ukrainian ships carrying grain in order to ensure that shipments do not delay.

    • Sethayy@sh.itjust.works
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      11 months ago

      Yeah and why don’t we put em in re-education camps while were at it! That’ll teach those dirty Russians /s

  • rusticus1773
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    11 months ago

    If we haven’t already, all foreign assets of Putin and all Russian leadership and oligarchs need to be seized immediately. Unless the pain is felt by those with power nothing will change.

    There are also a number of Western companies still operating in Russia. That needs to change.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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      11 months ago

      Russian economy is basically independent of the west at this point, there’s no economic leverage left that the west can exercise.

    • ScaraTera@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      I do believe that this was a terrible move by the kremlin, but there are some rules that must be followed even between enemies. If we all do petty thing, whats the difference between us and them.

      • Syringe
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        11 months ago

        I think a better argument is that Russia is holding a few more cards here than we do. If we want to get petty, they have explosives planted in a nuclear reactor that they could just blow up.

        If we want to go in and kick their asses, we risk global war.

        There’s a lot of reasons that this is bad, but there are a lot of really smart people working on these problems.

        “What’s the difference between us and them” not only is an emotional appeal, it dehumanizes them, which weirdly makes your argument the same as theirs.

      • abraxas
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        11 months ago

        The answer to the paradox of tolerance is usually “the one fighting for peaceful coexistence is in the right”.

        I mean, every action a police officer takes in any country parallels to some of the worst crimes imaginable. An armed person saying “You are not allowed to leave” is a felony in my country punishable by up to life imprisonment. While people argue about problems with police behavior or severity of criminal penalties, it is generally agreed upon that an arrest of a suspected violent offender is always less severe than civilian kidnapping.

        And perhaps outside of the police, for every person I’ve met who is so anti-cop they consider arresting even a serial-killer unacceptable, I have found common ground of some severe behavior they feel is only rightly done by the party trying to find a peaceful coexistance.

        • ScaraTera@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          Now I agree that there must be some method of repercussions for weaponizing food, however this is an unideal world. Holding assets’ hostage will only lead to a migration from western assets to maybe Chinese ones, and as a south-east Asian, I can guarantee you that’s the last thing the world needs tight now. Similarly, brash actions using the hegemony of the dollar will only lead to increased scepticism over it and the rise of yuan.

          • abraxas
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            11 months ago

            I don’t really disagree with what you’re saying, but I have a point we should agree on. Your previous discussion point spoke to ethics or morality, to “rules” even between enemies. Your current rebuttal is instead one of pragmatism.

            I agree it may not be pragmatic to respond fully to Russia as would be entirely just. The Nuremburg trials were entirely just (at least in my view), but nobody doubts there are hundreds of rulers that get handshakes instead of a death conviction based entirely on the unreasonable cost, paid by innocents, of doing the right thing.

            The rules at this point suggest Putin should have been stripped of all power and prosecuted by Ukraine. Military conquest is simply unacceptable on the world stage, and that does (or should) apply to all governments at this point. But rules are often only followed when possible and best for everyone

            • ScaraTera@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              Yes so I brought up the idea of rules to be followed because in my opinion pragmatism is the only enforcer of said rules. When we talk about using the dollor as the world’s reserve currency pretty much everyone knew USA could freeze assets unilaterally but trusted them not to. Similarly I feel that there are certain untold rules built on trust that simply should not be broken.

              As for idea that military conquest itself is a crime and must lead to Putin’s prosecution. I do not agree with this arbitrary enforcement of this law only because this time around there is a lot of internet awareness over the war. There have been several instances in modern history where a large, supposedly imperial power has invaded a smaller country without the permission of the UN over self interest. I’ll try not to call whataboutism but justice half served is no justice at all.

      • Spzi@lemm.ee
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        11 months ago

        If we all do petty thing, whats the difference between us and them.

        (Not) invading / annexing your neighbor, to name one.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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          11 months ago

          US currently occupies a larger percentage of Syria than Russia is occupying of Ukraine.

            • ghost_laptop
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              11 months ago

              Whattaboutism don’t vindicate the US.

              Also, the US is still occupying Puerto Rico, Hawai’i, Virgin Islands, France has the Guyana in South America, you only care when white people get fucked, you sleazy piece of racist.

              • space_frog@lemmyfly.org
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                11 months ago

                Okay che, remind me where I said the atrocities committed by the USA were totally cool? I’m just against wars of aggression and conquest. Take that as you will.

            • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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              11 months ago

              Calling whataboutism is a logical fallacy used to justify having a different set of standards for oneself and ones adversaries. It’s not a serious argument. The west has positioned itself as having some sort of a high ground while doing the same and worse that it accuses Russia of doing. This isn’t about vindicating anything, it’s about having a consistent set of morals.

  • magnetosphere @beehaw.org
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    11 months ago

    It’s a really good thing that I’m not President. I have NO patience for this shit. Stopping Ukraine’s food shipments is simply unacceptable. I would have sent the Navy into the Black Sea by now, and possibly started a war with Turkey if they tried to stop the ships.

    The world does not need people like me in charge.

    • AnarchoYeasty@beehaw.org
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      11 months ago

      Fuck man I wish our world leaders would actually take action on stuff like this. Direct war with Russia appears to be becoming more and more an inevitable conclusion. They are going to cross a line sooner or later that will necessitate it. The only question is how long will we allow them to fuck over Ukraine/Their neighbors/The world before we do so. I’m anti wars of imperialism but despite what edgy tankies might believe the only imperialism at play in Ukraine is Russian imperialism. And I am absolutely in favor of war to end genocide and Russia is committing genocide.

  • eleitl
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    11 months ago

    Fun fact: only 2.5% of the grain went to the poor countries in need. And none of the non-Russian parts of the deal were honored, so not really a surprise it was dropped after Erdogan won the election.

  • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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    11 months ago

    After the Grain Deal was struck, Western Europe became the top importer of Ukrainian grain, and a negligible amount of it ended up feeding the “Millions of hungry people around the world”. The bulk of the African, Asian, and Global South countries, rely on Russian grain and not the Ukrainian. This does not affect global food security. Perhaps correct the title to not spread misinformation?

  • zephyreks@lemmy.ca
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    11 months ago

    If the US would start dialogue with China it might actually stand a chance of taking on Russia and winning without destabilizing the region. Direct US intervention in the region would be akin to Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan: it would serve to destabilize the region.

    The US will never consider this because it prefers a weak Russia to a strong China.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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      11 months ago

      Do you really think that China is really so stupid that they would trust US at this point?

  • Blursty@lemmygrad.ml
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    11 months ago

    How come people here are taking AP News at face value? It starts with “LONDON (AP) — Russia on Monday…”

    You know you’re not getting the straight story here, don’t you?

  • Hexadecimalkink
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    11 months ago

    I believe this is because the EU didn’t fulfill their part of the deal to allow for Russian fertilizer exports. And most of the Ukrainian grain was being exported to developed countries, which wasn’t the intent of the deal. This reporting doesn’t reflect all of the facts on why the deal failed. It’s not the Russians being evil.

    • nodq@kbin.social
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      11 months ago

      Are you really trying to blame anything else other than Russia? If Putin didn’t invade Ukraine we wouldn’t have these issues and wouldn’t be in the current situation. Sigh…

      • AnarchoYeasty@beehaw.org
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        11 months ago

        You are mistaken friend. It was actually western capitalists disguised as Russians who invaded Ukraine. Don’t you know that at least 1/3rd of the “troops” invading Ukraine is actually notorious war monger Joe Biden himself in disguise? Stay woke.

            • AnarchoYeasty@beehaw.org
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              11 months ago

              I had hoped the imagery of capitalists pretending to be Russian soldiers and 1/3rd of the soldiers being Joe Biden in disguise and saying stay woke was all clues enough that I didn’t need to drop a /s on there but alas

            • ours@lemmy.film
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              11 months ago

              I hope so. These it’s harder and harder to tell the bonkers conspiracies, satire and trolls apart.

        • LwL@lemmy.fmhy.ml
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          11 months ago

          No shit there are issues with capitalism

          But they have absolutely nothing to do with this situation