Hey, mods? Mind explaining which parts of the comments you removed were “misinformation?”
Was it the part where I said the opinions of the people sending the bomb shipments don’t change the genocide when the IDF uses them regardless?
Was it the part where I said the US brutally exploits the Global South with predatory IMF loans?
Was it the part where I called Israel a “settler-colonial” project?
Was it the part where I said a democratic One State Solution is the only way to end the genocide, given Israel’s dependency on Settler-Colonialism?
Was it where I said Biden approved the IDF’s invasion of Lebanon?
Was it the part where I said the Democrats are supporting the IDF in committing genocide?
Or maybe it was the part where I said the US uses Israel to help secure the Petro-Dollar, and therefore doesn’t care about the Palestinians at all, and hasn’t since the 1940s?
Here’s what Joe Biden has to say:
Just want to know which part of that is “wrongthink” on Lemmy.world. This blatant defense of Zionism is ridiculous.
Probably the parts where you said “Biden has given Israel everything they want”, which is blatantly false, and your statement that “They are doing the same amount of genocide”, which cannot be meaningfully assessed when the genocide in Gaza only ramped up under Biden – and there is good reason to believe that Trump would, in fact, be much worse.
The Dems are evil, but being dishonest about their flaws is foolish, unproductive, and deserving of censorship.
Well you did say that Dems and Republicans are supporting the same amount of genocide when clearly Republicans are the only one of the two supporting the genocide happening to the Ukrainian people.
Its lemmy.world. Admin are Nazi sympathizers at BEST.
I know, but this was especially mask-off.
Thank you for always doing a good job posting.
🫡
When strawman versus just one person isn’t anywhere near enough
600 upvotes you reddit migrants must be proud
Kamala might fund genocide in Israel. But Trump will fund genocide in Israel, and genocide here.
We can be ideologically pure when we don’t have fascists at the doorstep. Thousands of children just FUCKING VANISHED during Trumps term. What’s going to happen during his second? Texas was (is?) putting barbed wire in the river on the fucking border. Trump will give free rein to murderous politicians (Texas is also about to execute another innocent man btw). People are going to die here.
I watched the presidential debate between Harris and Trump, and one of Harris’s main talking points was that the Republicans weren’t doing enough at the border.
At least the meme acknowledges what a messed up hair trigger situation it is there, as it has been forever, and debunks the naive belief that USA simply cutting off its support would magically bring peace to the region instead of World War 3.
Oh yes. This will surely win over those far left voters.
Insulting people is how you get voters, right?
Don’t forget grossly misrepresenting their points of view
I know Lemmy isn’t the place to speak badly of anyone far to the left, but honestly?
If they aren’t going to be persuaded to vote Harris by the other side of the ticket, I’m not optimistic they’ll be persuaded by people on the Internet being sweet and polite to them.
So imo, who gives a shit about insulting them? It’s pretty clear OP wasn’t intending a post like this to win hearts and minds.
Nobody expects Kamala to solve it. They do expect her to stop supporting genocide.
i mean, to my knowledge maybe i’m wrong i don’t follow this conflict very closely, but so far the only source i’ve seen for it being genocide was the ICJ ruling that it “might be genocide if this continues getting worse” which i dont believe was followed up on.
A number of history scholars or whoever have claimed that it “amounts to genocide” or is “effectively genocide” (im being really generous with the phrasing here) which people have equated to mean “there is genocide”
The ICC has put out a warrant for the funny israeli guy, doesn’t mention genocide.
I don’t know if any countries have explicitly called it genocide? Aside from maybe south africa, idk how they raised the case. But if you know of any cases, inform me, i am actually curious about that one.
and if we go with a strict definition of genocide, I.E. “strictly killing related to ethnicity” and extrapolate that to a test of “would the killing stop if the conflict stopped” i personally so no reason why israel would continue to kill people in the same capacity as they are not, or at all, if the conflict magically stopped entirely.
People also point to the UN definition of genocide being incredibly broad. The US bombing japan in WW2 would arguably be genocide under that definition, most wars would constitute genocide. Now to be clear, i don’t think it’s bad, it’s just a legal definition, meant to be held out in a court of law, which usually tend to be pretty vague, until tried.
Frankly, i think it would also be rather unprecedented for someone in a higher position of power to call this a “genocide” as well. Who knows what kind of a mess that would entail. It’s certainly not something you want to throw around if you want the rest of the government, and the american public to like you. Which is, the goal of politics.
I don’t really see any reasonable expectation for her to call it a genocide. Expectation to callout war crimes and various other wrong doings? As well as retracting support? Absolutely.
Although little fun fact, right now the harris campaign isn’t running on policy, as policy gives something for trump to attack, so without policy he can’t attack anything she says, aside from her character, so it’s pretty likely they’re trying to outwit trump in that regard, if you’re wondering why she doesn’t talk about things like this more specifically.
Trump would be a disaster for the middle east. He wouldn’t even be good for Israel. Sure, he’d support Israel now, but Trump loves strongman leaders, and there are plenty of them in the middle east, so he’d love Netanyahu, but he’d probably also cozy up to any other regional strongmen and destabilize things even more.
But, the Biden/Harris admin has been effectively sponsoring the genocide by giving military aid to Israel. It’s clear that Israel is the biggest military power in the region, and it has been for decades. It has no need for military aid. The best way to help civilians is to make Israel afraid to piss off its neighbors. Right now it’s convinced it could beat them in any war, so it’s happy to grind the Palestinians into dust, daring Iran, Egypt, etc. to interfere.
Yes, it’s a complex geopolitical issue, and an all-out regional war would put many more civilians in danger, not just the Palestinians. But, giving military aid to Israel while they engage in genocide isn’t a good way to prevent a regional war.
Even if you’re a single-issue voter who doesn’t care about women’s reproductive health, doesn’t care about the rule of law, doesn’t care about free speech, doesn’t care about corruption, and is only 100% focused on the fate of Palestinians, even then you should be voting for Harris. Even if you don’t like her policies, there’s still a slight chance she’d listen to reason once elected. Trump would be an utter disaster.
The best way to help civilians is to make Israel afraid to piss off its neighbors.
But you see, Israel existing at all is what pisses off its neighbors and that will never change no matter what they do or don’t do.
They know.
make Israel afraid to piss off it’s neighbors
Yes, but have you considered that those neighbors are Muslims?
The majority of people want an end to the Unconditional Military Support of Israel. That is the requirement for the US to abide by US and International Humanitarian Law as well. It’s not that complicated. You can’t say you want to support civilians on both sides when you provide one side with the weapons used to commit genocide against the other unconditionally.
The argument for people who are anti-genocide to vote Harris, is that Trump will not only be much worse than the current administration, but will not be able to be swayed by public pressure in the same way Harris might be. The harm reduction argument is true for domestic policies, but is meaningless for foreign policy when the current administration is assisting Genocide.
Harris is significantly more likely to be pressured to change course from public pressure than Trump, that is the right argument for getting people who are anti-genocide to vote Harris despite the current administration’s policy. Because the fight doesn’t end after the election, but the fight will be much more difficult under a Trump administration.
The argument against that is that the best time to make a politician to promise something is when their job is on the line. The vote is really the only way normal Americans have to get their voice heard, and it, along with bribe money from lobbyists, is the only thing they listen to.
The other argument is that morally, many people can’t bring themselves to vote for someone enabling a genocide. Especially since Kamala is connecting herself so much to Biden saying she’d do all the same things, a vote for her is a stamp of approval for all of the current administration’s policies.
I’ve heard people say she has to support a genocide because so many Americans are pro-Israel, and she’ll lose the election if she doesn’t show unconditional support. That basically forces the anti-Zionist coalition to vote against her to show their numbers and prove they are to be listened to as well.
The argument for people who are anti-genocide to vote Harris, is that Trump will not only be much worse than the current administration, but will not be able to be swayed by public pressure in the same way Harris might be.
It’s also the “current administration”. I’d imagine that despite all of the people pretending otherwise (and kind of buying the “She’s Biden”, weak-ass attack line from the Trump camp), a Harris-Walz administration will not be exactly the same as the current Biden-Harris one.
The vice presidency is largely a ceremonial role, and she has to walk a fine line while campaigning for the job of POTUS to not criticize the “current administration” that she’s nominally part of and therefore is not likely to break with it very much publicly, but I would find it utterly unsurprising if she charted a completely distinct course from Biden on many issues when she assumes the role.
I hope you’re right, but I’m concerned that Harris not breaking from Biden on his unpopular positions is seriously hurting her chances to win the election right no. It’s a way closer race than it should be
I was banned from r/LateStageCapitalism for politely supporting a post with this reasoning. I pointed out that Trump would make the conflict even worse for innocents, and voting third-party to make a statement against neoliberal Democrat rule (which is bad) is a position that, in this moment, only the least-vulnerable in America can take when there is a risk of outright christo-fascism threatening the least-enfranchised.
Banned. “This is a socialist sub.” Proceeded to see a post from a mod openly mocking anyone who entertained lesser-of-two-evils arguments; they sounded like a sneering teenager. Over there, it’s all theory and no parsing of theory with reality.
Nice to see r/LateStageCapitalism is still letting tankies run off allies.
Yeah. I have all that garbage filtered from my feed and advise others to as well.
Here’s the Socialist argument for Harris.
Ho Chi Minh would have know all about America’s long history of slavery and genocide.
Ho helped the American OSS run missions in Vietnam during WW2.
Your allies don’t have to be perfect.
Your allies don’t have to be perfect.
You say her critics are haggling about being perfect? Progressives arent even asking for perfect, they are asking for the bare minimum to follow our existing laws: neutrality.
And your implicit minimalization of whats going on is pretty terrible. We arent talking about school vouchers, PETA, or something trivial and grey shaded here, its a much more black and white and life and death conversation. Therefore actively supporting a genocide in a far rightwing war with American weapons and now American boots on the ground and American interference in the UN VS being truly neutral and enabling peace are pretty darn far apart high cost positions.
If Israel didnt have those weapons, they wouldnt be able to do so much killing, with so much impunity. This is illegal, unethical, and the cost to the western world order and our reputation is astronomical. So your characterizing it as strving for perfection doesnt seem right to me.
And you arent even considering the second order effects to the concept of democracy and sanctity of borders globally. We have neutered the UN, and that enables and encourages every militant thug in the world.
Ho Chi Minh would have know all about America’s long history of slavery and genocide.
He still wanted help against the greater threat.
Trump is literally talking about being a dictator and ending elections.
There’s a big difference between “not perfect” and “enabling a genocide, giving weapons to an ally that is starting a war with all the Middle-East and the UN, and burning children alive in hospital refugee camps”.
There were lynchings going on during the time Ho Chi Minh was hosting the American soldiers who were fighting the Japanese. And Ho tried to get American support before the US spurned him.
And how is getting Trump in going to stop the Israelis? He’d be giving them nukes on Inauguration Day.
Thats probably true but is still a guess. Trumps infinite capacity to be bribed-- probably cheaply-- must conflict at some level with his overt antisemiticism. Once he gets enough of his little fingers on our taxpayer money he wont need AIPAC bribes, and then what will he do? His and Vance’s answer to “The Jewish Question” will be the same answer he gives to every other nonwhite subgroup. AIPAC must be thinking of how to deal with Vance and hasten Trumps demise along. Its the only plan that makes any sense for them.
We know Harris will 100% support Israeli demands and continue whatever Biden starts, which is bad enough.
And, obviously, Trump will end America one way or another, so thats a consideration too.
Yeah this place is definitely just like, getting canvassed hardcore. big rip
This is extremely misleading. Fuck Trump 10000 times and kamala is the only sane choice, but stop trying to paint over reality to try and make her look like she’s not just a lesser evil.
She didn’t just “not promise to solve 1000 year conflict” (which the genocide has been going on for the last 75 years),
she did promise to continue funding genocide with American taxpayer dollars. (Of which the US has been giving and average of $5 billion in tax dollars and weapons to Isreal per year for the last 75 years, since they first invaded Palestine).
We are voting for her because she is the lesser evil. We don’t have to be happy about it or stop criticizing her on her bad policies.
Basically: Vote for Harris, but also fuck her for vowing to continue funding genocide. Trump would also keep funding genocide, and he’d also destroy what’s left of the west, on top of every other obvious reason he should never be in power again (and never should have been).
Right wing morons and shills can’t exactly base their arguments on how much better Republicans are, so they come at it sideways with this bullshit.
Well, jokes on them because “the left” isn’t made up of complete morons like they have in the MAGA movement. Despite neoliberal whining to the contrary, the left has been consistently the most reliable voting demographic the Democrats have, and that’s despite the fact that the establishment shits on us at every opportunity.
OP consistently makes posts that only divide the Dem base.
Considering they started out with AI posts lying about early voting, I guess it’s an improvement?
vote third party IMHO
fuck the two party regime that got us cornered here. vote for either party is providing genocide legitimacy.
Sounds good on paper or if not on battleground state. I remember people pissed at DNC in 2016 got us Trump the first time.
Technically running the least popular candidate in history while simultaneously pied pipering the most dangerous candidate in history was not perpetrated by “people pissed at DNC”.
Blame the voters for consistently snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is a core tenet of Dem strategy, and of liberalism for that matter.
I remember people pissed at DNC in 2016 got us Trump the first time.
Other people would blame Clinton’s campaign for refusing to move to the left to get more votes.
They had a very “vote for me or fuck you” approach, much like OP’s meme.
But when looking at exit polling, progressives showed up and voted D like we always do. Clinton lost by slim margins in a couple of important battleground states she mostly ignored.
And I’m not saying all that to bring up old wounds, it’s because Hillary’s people became Bidens people who became Kamala’s.
They’re still the ones making these policy decisions that are wildly unpopular.
They shouldn’t be in charge still, but they are.
ah yes, the tired old “poor defenseless hillary had no power to change her fate and did nothing wrong” theory.
Blaming voters for her terrible campaign and DNC shenanigans is really insulting to women. Hillary had a million times the agency of every voter you try to slam for Hillary’s own mistakes. Saying otherwise minimalizes her.
She still blames everyone but herself for the loss. Thats not leadership.
And voting third party is saying “I don’t care whether we get a bit of genocide or a lot of genocide,” which itself is legitimizing genocide.
Genocide is binary.
Trying to make it analog is just trying to justify the unjustifiable.
I think the gulf you are seeing between your position and people saying they will vote third party is because you seem to believe that Biden has been pushing back on Israel, and many of us do not beleive he’s been doing anything but putting on a show for the rubes.
You are framing it as a lot of genocide vs a little genocide, and thats position doesnt sound right given the actions we have seen in the past few days. American forces are about to directly enter the fight with Israel, and Biden seems to be setting up a mobilization the entirety of the US military when one of our THAAD operators inevitably gets killed. and congress has been bought off so no one is checking what the president is doing.
Yes, Trump is a monster. But on this issue we dont know that Biden is any better-- and it sure does seem there has been a lot of lying going on.
“Harm reduction” is not in the vocabulary of these internet addicted “intellectuals”.
Genocide is binary.
Anything that furthers genocide is not capable of being harm reduction.
So then where the fuck do you get off advocating for letting the guy who’s already handed Israel East Jerusalem, West Bank, and The Golan Heights back into office to recognize Gaza as Rightful Israel Clay?
You are claiming the moral high ground over us lowly votescolds while taking the course of action that would actually be what furthers genocide.
Nor are things like “strategic voting.” It’s really unfortunate
No people know what it means to pick the less disgusting turd out of the bowl. They’re just tired of eating shit for “strategic reasons”.
Am I the only one who just realized that these people who are so tired are usually just kids who’ve voted in at most two elections and didn’t even participate in the primaries or local elections?
If y’all put half the energy into being consistent voters that ya did in removed about “having to” once in a blue moon when you’re dragged by the hair to the polls first.
I’m in my forties. I’m a millennial.
This is just some more ‘damn kids’ boomer bullshit.
Keep in mind that most of them (like OP) are right wing agitators trying to drive a wedge.
While I agree this is definitely a big issue, most of my friends are various leftists. There is a clear line where the white, straight, cis, financially secure, and healthy ones are, or were, definitely of this mind. Though, in my case, few of them are still this way, after years of discourse with everyone else, who don’t have the privilege of not having to vote DNC, lest our lives become quantifiably more dangerous.
This has “I don’t care about your principles, lick the boot bigot” energy.
Kinda gave the game away by admitting you get called bigot enough to be seen as a generic NPC complaint to you
I wouldn’t assume that when anti-Zionists are being called antisemites on the regular these days.
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They are doing the same amount of genocide
Try to make your point without spouting misinformation.
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In the above comment, we see the following items directly out of the alt-right playbook:
- Never play defense (doesn’t provide backing for their statement, because they can’t, and instead just tries something else)
- Control the conversation (spins things and tries to change the subject)
- Ship of Theseus (changes fundamental things about their argument without admitting it)
Why is @cowbee@lemmy.ml using the alt-right playbook for their online argumentation? I’ll leave that up to the reader.
I played defense, I never changed the subject, and never changed the fundamentals of the argument. You made the baseless claim that Trump would be far worse for the Palestinian people, while Biden has given Israel everything and then some, without backing it up. You can’t actually answer my point so you slander me as alt-right despite advocating for Marxism.
😂 You see, the socialists are the real fascists. Ian Danskin would be horrified to see this perversion of his work.
Genocide is happening either way. Only option for american peasant is to go into opposition to the two party regime.
Voting 3rd party in this election isn’t the grand protest against the 2 party system you think it is.
Organize. Build a coalition. Those are great things to do to oppose the regime.
Voting third party or not voting aren’t opposing the regime. They’re telling the regime “I don’t care whether you’re a little bit evil or very evil.” Harm reduction comes by voting for the lesser evil in the ballot box. Opposing the regime comes in actually building a coalition for less evil, not advocating for actions that’ll make the more evil option more likely.
Genocide and harm reduction do not belong in the same sentence.
Genocide is binary.
Someone who’d go as far as calling them the “American Peasant” probably doesn’t know enough about their interests to be talking at them about what their interests as a class are.
We know what we are: wage slaves. Other than being technically ahistorical, “peasant” is close enough to what we are: the oppressed class. I don’t see a problem.
How do I just know you wrote this on a $3,000 rainbow-LED gaming rig you bought with your parent’s engineer wages?
Someone who’d go as far as calling them the “American Peasant” probably doesn’t know enough about their interests to be talking at them about what their interests as a class are.
What an amazingly privileged response.
Calling out the inherent privilege carried by those who’d feel comfortable letting the republicans win to “teach the establishment a lesson” is not, in fact, a privileged response.
Voting 3rd party for progressivism is the biggest self own in history. We could have had Gore, but nooo.
Behind every upset conservative victory, there was a progressive who insisted they shouldn’t have to be voting for the lesser of two evils.
- There are two choices in the United States 2024 election. No third party stands a ghost of a chance of winning. No, not even if the 30,000 people you can reach on Lemmy all vote for Timothy Greenparty.
- A Trump victory in 2024 would not only be just as bad if not worse for the citizens of Gaza than Harris would, but also pose an existential threat to a large number of vulnerable Americans (trans people, immigrants, women seeking abortions).
- Given the margins of victory in 2016 and 2020, Kamala might not win if leftists don’t vote for her.
- Snoozing fascism for four years is better than inviting it through the door now, and buys us time to build our defenses for when it comes back.
I’d like to focus my counterargument. Which of these statements do you disagree with?
I don’t care if either regime removed wins, either one is L for me.
Y’all keep trying to do this left/right american politics bullshit, which inherently enablers the regime.
They’re both identical, right?
They serve the same function within the regime. But sure one is funded by Exxon and another one microsoft, so they are different in that way.
this post is so based
More like:
Will solve conflict in the Middle East by letting Israel kill whoever they want, and take any land they want, with full support from the US
vs.
Will solve conflict in the Middle East by letting Israel kill whoever they want, and take any land they want, with full support from the US
I’d tack on:
but explained in a more presidential, civil fashion.
to option 2
First and foremost, this isn’t a 1000 year war. It’s a bit over 100 years at most. The colonization of Palestine started around 100 years ago. Israel was founded in 1948.
Secondly, Kamala isn’t working towards achieving shit. Her government is literally still sending weapons to Israel as Israel is shooting at UN peacekeepers, burning people alive, attacking five different countries, and much more worse.
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There are still indigenous Palestinian Jews in Palestine (and some are still anti-Zionist), and the “non-Jewish” Palestinians are for the most part simply the descendants of Palestinians who at some point converted from Judaism to Christianity or Islam.
“Land without a people” my ass.
Jews are not Israelis, and the Ottomans are not Palestinians. Conflating these things is an important part of how the Zionist entity justifies itself.
Also, the 29 “massacre” killed and wounded less than a hundred people. It was part of a larger wave of violence that killed over a hundred Jews, but also killed over a hundred Arabs, and the Jews in Hebron were taken out of the area by the British, not driven out by the violence. Conflating these sparse and disorganized religious riots with the massive and highly organized ethnic cleansing that took place in 48 is a politically-motivated lie perpetuated by Zionists to insist that their claim to the land they’ve stolen is anything but fraudulent.
that was 15% of the population of Hebron (4th largest city in Palistine at that moment) at the time, you have to understand how sparely populated Palistine was in the 1920s
but also killed over a hundred Arabs, and the Jews in Hebron were taken out of the area by the British, not driven out by the violence.
blatant denial of history, they were driven out again in 31 and 36, and the British were the ones who killed the vast majority of Arabs.
The jews are not Israel but Israel definitely wants people to keep conflating them that way.
and the palestinians are not the ottomans, for that matter
No, but there were Jews in that area. And even more Jews all over the peninsula.
How many of them were Israeli?
They were Old Yishv, they were part of the foundation of Israel.
Are they the same as the Yishuv who collaborated with the Nazis?
Unironically I’ve heard this talking point before, when shouting down a nazi at a rally at my school in 2014. You know the english spelling of Yishuv so I’m going to assume you know what demographic they’re from, and that that’s not physically possible. You can down vote me all you like, but at least I can say I don’t agree with nazis
I agree. Those who care about Palestine should vote for Kamala because Trump is fully pro-genocide; but implying that Kamala has a valid plan, or even an existing plan, to help Palestinians, is untrue. She’s going to do nothing or as little as possible.
The choice is between evil and more of the same, it’s not between good and evil.
