• zephyreks@lemmy.ca
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      11 months ago

      Considering the US built itself on a foundation of corporate espionage… Well, duh? Everyone does it, including American companies on other American companies. If your technology lags behind others, corporate espionage is the easiest way forwards. Globalization was supposed to slow down corporate espionage by making the technology more easily available (as evidenced by the relatively mundane technology that gets stolen today), but that’s unraveling.

      Corporate espionage is reason for sanctioning companies, not countries. If your IP is necessary for national security, it should be owned by the government and protected as such. Otherwise, I have no sympathy for private profit-driven companies losing their competitive advantage because of decades of underfunding on their cyber security systems.

      • Varyk@sh.itjust.works
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        11 months ago

        The “relatively mundane technology that gets stolen today”? Like hypersonic missile guidance systems? Every type of personal data of entire populations? Turbines that power literally every major source of power the US and China have been using since they started using electricity?

        These are not mundane technologies.

        As for sanctioning companies rather than countries, if the companies who steal this tech are owned by the government, in whole or part, this is not a “private” theft. This is state-owned theft. Malicious action of one state against another.

        Yes, the US should invest more in cybersecurity, but blaming the victim is a poor justification for theft.

        • zephyreks@lemmy.ca
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          11 months ago

          Here’s where s Chinese worker literally stole a troubleshooting robot from T-Mobile, Chinese companies stole electric vehicle designs, it just goes on and on

          Oh no! Not a troubleshooting robot! Whatever will they do…

          Again, if it’s a state secret that’s important for national security, it should be protected by the government. It doesn’t matter who’s attacking (because, y’know, crown corporations exist and can be sanctioned as individual entities), but it matters who’s defending. An attack against T-Mobile’s troubleshooting robot or Rivian’s electric vehicle is not an attack against the US. Private companies operate in a domain where corporate espionage is prevalent. Expecting corporate espionage to not happen is silly.

          Corporate espionage is how Korea (Samsung, etc.), Taiwan (TSMC), Japan (Hitachi, etc.), and China jump-started their economies. Hell, it’s how the US jump-started it’s economy and was an act that Alexander Hamilton strongly supported.

          Often times it’s state-sponsored or state-condoned and certainly partially state-owned (simply because the economies of these countries are intricately tied into the success of these companies, and these companies receive significant government investment through government-owned and government-managed funds).

          For more, please see Hamilton’s “Report on Manufacturing” here: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015014667409;view=1up;seq=3

          State secrets crosses the realm into true espionage and should be punished as such, but corporate espionage? If the technology is owned by a private company, it clearly was seen to be harmless enough for the state to not bother protecting.

          • Varyk@sh.itjust.works
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            11 months ago

            Interesting how you ignored the theft of hypersonic missile software and metadata of entire populations, then went straight back to victim blaming.

            “simply because the economies of these countries are intricately tied into the success of these companies, and these companies receive significant government investment through government-owned and government-managed funds” - yes, this is exactly my point. State-sponsored they of IP, specifically citizen data and weapons systems is not mundane and it’s not okay.

            Nobody expects theft not to happen, scarecrow, the problem is that country C is having threats against country A while stealing strategic and military data.

            However you justify theft, theft is wrong, and in this case, dangerous. This is a bad thing that the Chinese government and companies are sponsoring. It doesn’t matter that other entities do it too, it’s still a bad thing.

            Your incorrect argument is that because there is a LOT of rape, rape is fine. You are wrong. Rape is still horrific, malign behavior, regardless of how many people do it.

            • zephyreks@lemmy.ca
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              11 months ago

              Your incorrect argument is that a rapist gets to make that determination. They don’t. It’s like saying “my rape was ok, but yours isn’t!”

              That’s not how things work. It’s either ok or it isn’t.

              Maybe if it was a country that didn’t built it’s entire economy on the back of corporate espionage, you might have a bit of an argument.

              • Varyk@sh.itjust.works
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                11 months ago

                So your argument is repeating and agreeing with what I just told you: that a malicious act is malicious regardless of how many people do it. Thank you for conceding that point, however odd it is to frame my argument as your own argument. Given you’re still taking my side, I’m fine with it…

                And then right after that you vaguely argue against yourself that because one country commits corporate espionage, it’s okay that other countries commit corporate espionage.

                You’re making a case in support of my argument that malicious acts are malicious regardless of how many people commit them, and then subsequently arguing against yourself, which I do appreciate, so thank you for your support!

                Protip: try not to precisely paraphrase the argument the person you’re arguing against has put forward, including their example, and then agree with their point and example; this will usually lead to you losing the argument.

                • zephyreks@lemmy.ca
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                  11 months ago

                  There’s no reason for country-level sanctions for private corporate espionage. It’s that simple.

                  It doesn’t matter if corporate espionage is malicious and it’s frankly hypocritical for America to be calling out other countries’ corporate espionage.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
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      11 months ago

      Nah, China hasn’t been stealing anything. Western companies made an explicit choice to do business in China at the cost of tech transfer. Today, China has long outpaced the west in many technological areas. Meanwhile, imagine still peddling cultural genocide conspiracy theories. If you want to see what actual cultural genocide looks like then go to US or Canada and see what settlers did to the indigenous population.

  • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
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    11 months ago

    This bit in particular sums up why US is in a panic right now

    “Finding buyers for US debt is the top mission of Yellen. From a medium-and-long-term perspective, China is disposing of US debt,” it says. “Who else will buy it? Japan is the biggest creditor of the US but cannot buy more. The United Kingdom is facing an economic recession and sold $30 billion of US debt in April.”

    • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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      11 months ago

      China holds <$1T of US debt. Sure, they’re the second largest foreign holder of US public debt, but we could easily replace that debt if needed. The Treasury itself bought much more than that after the 2008 crisis, and we could do it again. Private citizens hold way more than China does through mutual funds and whatnot, and investors would buy more if rates go up.

      The real problem is that interest rates for public debt is going up, so we’ll end up paying a lot later share of our budget toward interest if we don’t reduce our debt load. Those older, cheap Treasuries will be maturing over the next decades, so the time to act is now. I’m in favor of raising taxes somewhat and cutting spending across the board (I think a lot of it is waste that could be caught in audits). But China doesn’t factor in at all when it comes to debt concerns.

      • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
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        11 months ago

        Thing is that as US will be issuing more bonds there’s going to be little market for them. Back when 2008 crash happened, the only reason US pulled through was cause China stepped in to buy enough bonds to stabilize US market. Fat chance of that happening this time around.

        Meanwhile, demand for dollar globally is dropping meaning that dollar based economy is starting to shrink. And major US allies are starting to have significant economic problems of their own, which means they’re not able to bail US out.

        • Avid Amoeba@lemmy.ca
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          11 months ago

          China doesn’t have the luxury of letting the US economy tank. If that were to happen there’s not enough demand around to keep enough of their factories working to avoid their economy from tanking as well.

          • 133arc585
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            11 months ago

            About 16% of China’s exports in 2022 were to the USA. It would certainly be a significant hit, but to suggest there would no longer be adequate demand is unlikely to be true.

            For example, Russian oil exports lost a lot of their direct importers, yet demand has not dropped significantly or in a way that is harmful for them. The volume of their exports has remained relatively constant, but the fraction of the total that different importing countries represent has changed. Even the price dip recovered.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
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          11 months ago

          China is already the main trading partner for most countries in the world, and a bigger economy than US in terms of PPP. The only one who seems to be inhabiting the dream realm here is you.

          • Qazwsxedcrfv000@lemmy.unknownsys.com
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            11 months ago

            As if our dear Uncle Sam does not trade 😭😭 Oh yeah by PPP Indian economy is larger than that of Japan and Germany combined too. Hurray India is an advanced economy now. Give the per capita figure a look and wake up.

            • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
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              11 months ago

              You keep on laughing while you can there. Soon even the most propagandized elements of society are going to be forced to engage with reality. Then the rest of us will laugh. 😂

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
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      11 months ago

      These “near-schizophrenic” economic controls are the reason China has had continuous growth for decades, meanwhile western economies have had three major crashes in the past three decades along. 😂

      • steltek@lemm.ee
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        11 months ago

        You know you’re making an argument for the US (and others) to impose even tougher controls and sanctions on China, right?