Depends, are you a believer in means/ends unification a la Anarchism, or are you more of a Marxist? Socialism will not be brought about by personally abstaining from retirement accounts and whatnot, and the State does not provide enough of a welfare net to avoid this issue. Workers must invest to survive, as they must consume products of Capitalism.
The forced participation in the investment market is a way to make people believe like they own capital while only giving back a pittance from the stolen value
In the absence of a real alternative, I don’t think offering investing advice goes against leftist beliefs. After the Revolution, we can do away with investing altogether. But that Revolution is not yet here, and neither is the welfare of Retirement that brings.
All Workers must leech from each other to survive in Capitalism, so long as it exists, unless their wages are high enough that they may ensure their future subsistence through savings alone.
I agree that we must move against it, but participation is a necessary sin.
My point is more that what @sub_ubi@lemmy.ml was offering initially, ie Personal Finance advice, is the necessary sin. Capitalism has made it necessary that Workers in the Imperial Core engage with it ruthlessly to ensure their own existence, there is no path outside of this unless you earn so much individually that you can avoid it.
We agree in concept, but I believe you place more of an emphasis on Moralism. If you’re arguing for Means/Ends unity, ie we must live and construct our goals in the same manner presently as we build them to ensure the ends match the means, then that’s a separate argument.
Marx engaged in stock market speculation for his own personal enrichment. Marx isn’t some moral guideline everyone must follow, of course, but it does call into question the position that leftists must avoid basic personal finance strategies.
I completely disagree. Doing what you must to survive is not against any of the socialist principles that I follow. In a similar way, as a vegan, I don’t think it is against the principles of veganism to kill and eat a wild animal (or a fellow human) if you are in a situation where that is literally the only way to survive. Every person, and every thing on this planet, has the fundamental right to fight for their own existence even at the detriment of others, and to me that principle outweighs all else. It is in the absence of necessity that other principles, such as those that say murder is wrong and that it is wrong to benefit from the work of others, come into play.
I don’t necessarily disagree and have retirement accounts myself.
But how do we draw the line between this and buying property to rent to others? Is being a landlord acceptable as a communist if we realize we are forced to participate in the system and need the extra income?
But how do we draw the line between this and buying property to rent to others? Is being a landlord acceptable as a communist if we realize we are forced to participate in the system?
Directly and purposefully shifting from Proletarian to Bourgeoisie is probably not a good move for a Communist. Materially, one could become a Landlord and intentionally take no profit, which would benefit the Proletariat, but would merely be charity work within a dying system. Instead, joining a Renter’s Union or owning your own home outright is better, the former helping all of your local proletarians and building up power.
When it comes to investing, it’s important to think of aggregates. A Proletarian clawing back some of the wealth stolen from all of the Proletariat does not mean said Proletarian has taken back more Value than they have had taken from them in the first place.
Finally, we must consider what it means to behave Morally in Capitalism. Yes, we all can and should boycott the worst of the system, but unfortunately, we are forced to engage with it. The only path out is to organize, no amount of self-flaggelation and rejection of wealth will change this process. Moralism is a dead-end, Materially.
It’s a complicated subject philosophically, so you must consider what your goals are, and why. Communism isn’t about being the most morally upstanding victim of Capitalism, but a path to eliminate and replace the system altogether.
Are you saying that personal gain from the work of others fits in the socialist world view?
Depends, are you a believer in means/ends unification a la Anarchism, or are you more of a Marxist? Socialism will not be brought about by personally abstaining from retirement accounts and whatnot, and the State does not provide enough of a welfare net to avoid this issue. Workers must invest to survive, as they must consume products of Capitalism.
have been trying to write a reply but both of yours ITT make the point much better than I can
Thanks, comrade!
The forced participation in the investment market is a way to make people believe like they own capital while only giving back a pittance from the stolen value
Yes, I agree.
I’m not saying that having a 401k makes you a bad communist, I’m saying that it’s against our beliefs
In the absence of a real alternative, I don’t think offering investing advice goes against leftist beliefs. After the Revolution, we can do away with investing altogether. But that Revolution is not yet here, and neither is the welfare of Retirement that brings.
If you are willing to leech from other workers, go for it
All Workers must leech from each other to survive in Capitalism, so long as it exists, unless their wages are high enough that they may ensure their future subsistence through savings alone.
I agree that we must move against it, but participation is a necessary sin.
That’s what I’ve tried to say the whole time, some participation is impossible to avoid, but it’s still against the principles
My point is more that what @sub_ubi@lemmy.ml was offering initially, ie Personal Finance advice, is the necessary sin. Capitalism has made it necessary that Workers in the Imperial Core engage with it ruthlessly to ensure their own existence, there is no path outside of this unless you earn so much individually that you can avoid it.
We agree in concept, but I believe you place more of an emphasis on Moralism. If you’re arguing for Means/Ends unity, ie we must live and construct our goals in the same manner presently as we build them to ensure the ends match the means, then that’s a separate argument.
Marx engaged in stock market speculation for his own personal enrichment. Marx isn’t some moral guideline everyone must follow, of course, but it does call into question the position that leftists must avoid basic personal finance strategies.
I completely disagree. Doing what you must to survive is not against any of the socialist principles that I follow. In a similar way, as a vegan, I don’t think it is against the principles of veganism to kill and eat a wild animal (or a fellow human) if you are in a situation where that is literally the only way to survive. Every person, and every thing on this planet, has the fundamental right to fight for their own existence even at the detriment of others, and to me that principle outweighs all else. It is in the absence of necessity that other principles, such as those that say murder is wrong and that it is wrong to benefit from the work of others, come into play.
I don’t necessarily disagree and have retirement accounts myself.
But how do we draw the line between this and buying property to rent to others? Is being a landlord acceptable as a communist if we realize we are forced to participate in the system and need the extra income?
Directly and purposefully shifting from Proletarian to Bourgeoisie is probably not a good move for a Communist. Materially, one could become a Landlord and intentionally take no profit, which would benefit the Proletariat, but would merely be charity work within a dying system. Instead, joining a Renter’s Union or owning your own home outright is better, the former helping all of your local proletarians and building up power.
When it comes to investing, it’s important to think of aggregates. A Proletarian clawing back some of the wealth stolen from all of the Proletariat does not mean said Proletarian has taken back more Value than they have had taken from them in the first place.
Finally, we must consider what it means to behave Morally in Capitalism. Yes, we all can and should boycott the worst of the system, but unfortunately, we are forced to engage with it. The only path out is to organize, no amount of self-flaggelation and rejection of wealth will change this process. Moralism is a dead-end, Materially.
It’s a complicated subject philosophically, so you must consider what your goals are, and why. Communism isn’t about being the most morally upstanding victim of Capitalism, but a path to eliminate and replace the system altogether.
Index funds are surprisingly close to market socialism and can be flipped to the benefit of society with little change.
Just like national socialists were actually socialists
Seems a rather harsh comparison for a state-owned index fund that’s operated for the benefit of society!
Market socialism is just social democrats in a bad makeup