• inlandempire@jlai.lu
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    4 months ago

    Computer literacy is weird because it feels like millennials were born into it and had to learn how to use the tools available… Then said tools were made a lot simpler with a lot less control over them, and Gen Z was born into apps and saas and did not have the chance to properly learn

    We generally only taught a single generation to master our tech, I think it’s scary, but also I trust the Zoomers to figure it out, they’re creative

    • MaermanOP
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      4 months ago

      You make some good points there. I remember LAN parties in high school where we would spend hours troubleshooting network problems and calling older brothers for advice. I learned a lot from those experiences, because I was forced to. I think a big part of the changes we are seeing in computer literacy is what I would call the Apple philosophy: if a toddler can’t use it, we need to simplify. Basically, as you said, things are getting simpler with less granular control. Of course, Apple is far from the only company doing this stuff, but they seem to be industry leaders in the sense of ‘dumbing down’ tech.

      I recently had a friend say that privacy is a luxury these days. My first thought was that there is nothing luxurious about it. It takes hard work, inconvenience and savvy. And I’m not even close to Stallman levels of privacy paranoia. I know just enough to acknowledge that I know nothing. I feel similarly about tech in general. I have been using Linux for ten years, I use VPNs, I have played around with DNS settings, et cetera. But I realize that I have barely scratched the surface of what is possible and available to those willing to spend the time and get it done.

      Anyway, I’ll shut up now. Thanks for replying thoughtfully, and thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

    • neidu2@feddit.nl
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      4 months ago

      I think so too. My kids are around the age I was when I first started tinkering with PCs, but they don’t have any awareness of what’s going on under the hood, (to be frank, nor do they seem to need it, as everything is so polished these days).

      I’m thinking of asking their teachers if I can take them out of school for a day each and bring them to work with me for educational purposes so they get some perspective in the form of networks and servers.

      Sure, they’re mostly interested in gaming, but I want them to see what kind of infrastructure is needed for a multiplayer game, specifically the hardware that they never get to see.

      I’m building a new server stack in a couple of months, and most of it will be used for testing, so I’d like for them to help build and connect it.

      • RBG@discuss.tchncs.de
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        4 months ago

        (to be frank, nor do they seem to need it, as everything is so polished these days)

        The problem is if you don’t know basic concepts of computers you cannot transfer your knowledge from one program to the next. Folder structures are a bizarre thing for many people and if they see one in program A, then they won’t understand that in program B it works the same way.

        I have never had any issues learning any new software from scratch, but I see people my age not figuring out where to click next or where something they are looking for might be hidden in the options. Then an update comes that changes things and they are back to square 1 and helpless.

        • neidu2@feddit.nl
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          4 months ago

          I just had a chat with my oldest (almost 13 years y.o.) asking him some theoretical questions in the hope to spark some curiosity: “When you connect to a Roblox game, what do you think you’re connecting to?”. It took him a few leaps of imagination to realize that he’s connecting to a physical machine somewhere, and now he’s curious as to how such a machine looks. So that server stack I’ll be setting up, he’s interested in tagging along.

          He already knows full well that there are more to PCs than just the windows UI, as I’m a linux guy, but I don’t think they’re aware of just how much can be done with a computer once you go outside of the usual GUI app that connects to some cloud service.

          So, provided that his teacher agrees (after all, I have to take him out of school for what effectively will be “alternative education” for a few days so we can fly down to the head office), he’ll end up with bragging rights of having dealt network hardware that costs more than the average computer, and computers that cost more than the average house.

          • Dreyns
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            4 months ago

            This could be a very formative memory even if he get disinterested from computers, getting this kind of perspective on things can go a long way !

            • Trainguyrom@reddthat.com
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              4 months ago

              I have memories of some random afternoons at the consulting firm my mom worked at, where everyone’s just poking at spreadsheets. I can’t imagine how cool the memory of going into the server farm and doing some hardware work there would be

          • MaermanOP
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            4 months ago

            Good on you. You can teach your son some valuable perspective, while getting in some quality time as well. Please let us know how it goes, if you don’t mind. I feel invested now.

          • variants@possumpat.io
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            4 months ago

            I just had a baby and I’m already planning how to get her to help me run my home lab as a way to get her to figure all this stuff out, maybe run some game servers or do a little local blog. Then I think about how I can teach her to solder a hand wired keyboard or maybe build a little fpv drone with me and then I start to remember that kids sometimes just don’t like what you do so you never know what you could get them interested in or not or if you will each have the time when they’re older

            • VinS@sh.itjust.works
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              4 months ago

              3 and 5 years old here. They can get interested as long it’s short and they can do meaningful work. I’ve teared down a second hand game boy color that had his fair share of Pepsi in it. The old one helped me clean with a toothbrush for 10 minutes, then he had to show me what parts were going where (with guidance). Then boot up and verify it works. We try to include them in everything we do and they love to help. We try to avoid the “it’s adult business” and they just sit around and never be interested on whats going out around them. The 3 year old can cut mushrooms with a wood knife and the 5 stir them when cooking.

              It’s definitely more work, stuff will be broken but I think it’s worth it.

        • Trainguyrom@reddthat.com
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          4 months ago

          Folder structures are a bizarre thing for many people

          When learning about this I learned that in the analog days folks would actually put physical folders inside of physical folders and it both makes tons of sense and is mind blowing at the same time. -Late Millennial born to IT parents

    • Raphaël A. Costeau
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      4 months ago

      In my country, this generational divide doesn’t make much sense. But comparing those born in the 90s and early 2000s with those born from the late 2000s onwards, there is a fundamental difference: there was, even in the public education system, a variety of computer courses available to many people. With the arrival and hegemony of the app model, which is designed with the idea that it is intuitive and does not require anyone to be taught how to use it, computer courses have been disappearing. As a result, millions of young people use computers daily and have no knowledge of simple concepts such as shortcuts Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V, let alone advanced features of Office suites, not to mention that they have no idea what LATEX and Markdown are.

      • inlandempire@jlai.lu
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        4 months ago

        That’s super interesting, I do remember being taught as a kid how to use Google Image search (circa 2005), Gimp for photo manipulation around the age of 12 in 2008, we had technology classes with electronics, technical drawing, even some plastic bending machine, and light programming (made a robot figurine execute recorded moves in sequence)

        I do wonder if it’s still the case in my own country

      • Jessica@discuss.tchncs.de
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        4 months ago

        To be fair, the overwhelming majority of people regardless of age don’t know what LaTeX or markdown are. Not the best examples. I’m a millennial with a 4 year STEM degree and I maybe used LaTeX once because it was required, and before Discord became a thing, I’d never heard of markdown. Most people who use Discord probably don’t even know it supports markdown.

        • Raphaël A. Costeau
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          4 months ago

          I agree that is a extreme example. That’s precisely why I started with keyboard shortcuts. I don’t think anyone is required to know LaTeX and Markdown, but it seems to me that fewer and fewer younger people know them. If there are fewer people who know the basics, there are proportionally fewer people who know the advanced ones.

    • RecluseRamble@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      4 months ago

      It’s really not a generational thing. Every generation has their nerds and they always are just a tiny minority.

      The late Gen X/early millennials may have been an outlier because they were forced to learn to get anything working but also from those years most don’t care about tech.

    • RandomVideos@programming.dev
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      4 months ago

      Im surprised that a lot of people that are my age, even if they are using computers a lot, dont know how to search the solution for a problem or follow some instructions on how to do something

    • Fisch@discuss.tchncs.de
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      4 months ago

      I’m Gen Z and I still know all this stuff because that’s just what I’m interested in. I don’t think it’s a huge issue that those things were made simpler for the average person and that they don’t know how it works. It’s not like you can or need to know everything.

    • Tregetour@lemdro.id
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      4 months ago

      Then said tools were made a lot simpler with a lot less control over them

      Which needs to be reversed if we’re to remain free in Western democracies. Access to and control of computing - general purpose computing in particular - is practically a civil liberty now. I look at legislators in my own country, and I’d wager 50% of them don’t understand this, 40% kind of grasp the problems but are apathetic, and 10% are on the enemies’ payrolls.

    • histic@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      4 months ago

      The weird thing is I know a lot of millennials that could use a dos computer just fine but struggle with anything modern

      • Scrollone@feddit.it
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        4 months ago

        So maybe we shouldn’t worry after all? Future generations will make fun of us because we can use Windows XP fine but we don’t understand how TikTok works?

  • sunglocto@lemmy.zip
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    4 months ago

    Gen-z here - I know how to torrent lol. It’s insane how tech illiterate a lot of my friends are, even in my IT classes don’t know what HTTPS is or what an ethernet cable is so… yeah

    Feels weird being known as “the guy who’s an expert at computers” despite being a noob

    • Vilian@lemmy.ca
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      4 months ago

      bro you’re on lemmy, you’re already outside of the curve for most gen-z

        • thoro
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          4 months ago

          16 years ago, that was Reddit for me.

          Guess we’ll see.

    • Holzkohlen@feddit.de
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      4 months ago

      I feel like if you know how to look up the answer and can follow a guide to apply 5 steps, you are probably more capable than 80% of the people on this planet.

    • CaptainEffort@sh.itjust.works
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      4 months ago

      I’m an older Gen Z, but same here. I really don’t know that much but can torrent, so people see me as some sort of tech god lol.

      My younger sister on the other hand, also Gen z, is so tech illiterate that her downloads folder is a mess and thinks deleting installers will delete the installed program.

      • Dizzy Devil Ducky@lemm.ee
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        4 months ago

        It’s absolutely amazing how we went from the majority of people not knowing how to use a computer in the beginning of computers to everyone knowing how to do at least the bare minimum on a computer in the 2000s to now circling back to the majority of people not knowing how to use a computer because pretty much everything they do can and probably is done on a phone. It’s also real scary to think since I’d assume most of us Gen Z-ers aren’t properly able to object to privacy eroding tech bills because we’re too tech illiterate to understand the impacts.

        • entropicdrift@lemmy.sdf.org
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          4 months ago

          It’s also real scary to think since I’d assume most of us Gen Z-ers aren’t properly able to object to privacy eroding tech bills because we’re too tech illiterate to understand the impacts.

          Millennial here, putting my tinfoil hat on for a minute:

          This is exactly what the big tech corpos wanted all along. They’ve been curving the arc of history towards people at large being digitally dependent but incapable of self-service. They want addicts, not citizens. Serfs, not an educated populace.

          In the 70s, 80s, 90s, and into the early 00s there was this “hacker culture” which was centered on the idea that as long as we keep our wits about us we could use computers as a great equalizer. The common person was empowered. Any and all software would be distributed for free so anyone who couldn’t afford it could get it. Bill Gates was painted as a villain because he was overtly capitalistic. The corpos were kept in check by a diverse, rapidly evolving market and a ton of savvy users who knew what they wanted.

          Giant corporations pretty much caught on that they needed there to be fewer tech savvy people who could get one over on them. When politicians needed to ask experts what to include in school curriculums, guess who had lobbyists ready to go? Microsoft and Apple. Eventually Google too.

          And now that there are fewer tech savvy people? Everything got shittier. Shinier, faster, dumber, more locked down and shittier. And the enshittification is just going to accelerate until people straight up reject it, then it’ll pause for 6 months to a year and start up again.

          • Dizzy Devil Ducky@lemm.ee
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            4 months ago

            That’s a theory I can actually agree with. Sounds plausible enough to be true, given what we know about large corpos.

      • Scrollone@feddit.it
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        4 months ago

        thinks deleting installers will delete the installed program

        Now I get why Windows XP had an alert that said you weren’t going to uninstall the program when you tried deleting a link to a program

    • el_abuelo
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      4 months ago

      20yrs ago I had to help my comp sci housemate build a website for his module. I was not a CS student.

      Some things never change.

      • Wugmeister@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        4 months ago

        I think the core of the problem is that back in the bad old days, things needed to be tuned up a bit before they would work right and there was a marked lack of standardization. Now, not only do our devices work right out of the box, bit they also have little quality of life stuff as well. I haven’t bought a battery-powered device in years that wasn’t partially charged when I got it, and most devices come preinstalled with all the basic utility apps.

    • PlexSheep@infosec.pub
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      4 months ago

      Gen-z too, finding can be somewhat hard but the mega threads help. Torrenting itself is easy of course. Just get transmission or any other FOSS client, put on a proper VPN and good to go.

    • MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca
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      4 months ago

      I feel this, especially since I’m more into networking, but my work is more generalist.

      I open my mouth about networking and people’s eyes glaze over. Even very experienced senior people can’t really understand what I’m talking about when it comes to some of the more intermediary networking concepts. Meanwhile I tune into a podcast that’s networking focused and they’re basically speaking Latin for me.

      There’s so much that I don’t know. I get the broad strokes of things but I’m hopelessly lost on so many of the more nuanced bits of networking.

      I really want to break away from generalist work and get into a network focused position, but after 10 years as a generalist in various MSP companies, most places won’t take me seriously as a networker and won’t even sit down for an interview.

      I’m good at other stuff, damn near expert level with some things, but my passion is networks and the workplaces I’ve been at just don’t care to help me learn any of it. My current place barely has any networking more complex than a profile based L2L VPN… Switches are basically ignored, and VLANs are rare.

      I facepalm every time I discover that the guest network is just bridged into the same subnet as the LAN. I’ve raised the issue a few times and never been given the green light to fix it, often because the network isn’t able to be managed remotely.

          • lemmyvore@feddit.nl
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            4 months ago

            Yeah.

            Next step, modify your resume to say you did networking at previous positions. Don’t lie, just focus on the network stuff. I’m assuming you did that too.

            • MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca
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              4 months ago

              Well, I’m probably going to try to get my ccnp for kicks. I’ll re-do my CCNA, then do my ccnp. By the time I go for my NA cert I’ll pretty much be ready to go for the np cert.

              I’ll build a new resume emphasizing my network stuff, though my resume is already fairly heavily focused on networking as is, and try again.

              I’m pretty happy with my job in almost every way, I know most of the things I would need to know to be successful, despite it being a more generalist position, and my co-workers are cool. Management is better than most, and the pay is more than the last two generalist positions I’ve worked, plus it’s work from home, so I’m pretty comfortable where I am for now. The pay, despite being higher than I’ve gotten previously, is a pretty far cry from what I probably deserve, just way too low, under $55k USD (I’m not in the US, but the conversion puts me under 55). From what I’ve seen online, median salary for a systems admin, which is basically what my job mostly entails, is around $73k USD… So I’m around $20k/yr shy.

              I know network admins are similar, depending on the complexity/importance of the network they administrate. I’m aware of people in networking that are making more than 100k USD a year; and right now I consider that to be where things start to cap off for networking. I’d be pretty happy with $73k USD.

    • Katzastrophe@feddit.org
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      4 months ago

      Fellow Zer here, my elective IT class had grading done depending on how well you could use the computer:

      ‘A’ if you could do everything perfectly well, ‘B’ if you needed some help from the instructor, ‘C’ if you needed a lot of help, ‘D’ if you couldn’t even get past the login screen on the windows machine.

      We had a lot of people who got a pity ‘C-’

    • AllHailTheSheep@sh.itjust.works
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      4 months ago

      I’m in the same boat. I’m a comp sci student but the amount of tech illiterate comp sci students I meet every day is astounding and concerning

  • jaxiiruff@lemmy.zip
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    4 months ago

    Dude I was born in 2000 and I get so mad when I realize how true this is. Apps/“smart” phones might be regarded as the biggest double edged sword in the history of technology.

    It literally feels like we are at a moment in history where we are evolving backwards by force. This will only worsen as the ipad babies grow older.

    You will own nothing and be happy. You will also know nothing and be happy.

    • meowMix2525@lemm.ee
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      4 months ago

      We are actively being held back by companies catering exclusively to the lowest common denominator.

    • Riven@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      4 months ago

      Might be a bit dramatic. All sectors of industry are using more and more tech, we have more people in the workforce now that are tech literate than we did decades ago.

      These are random numbers to explain my point. Look at it this way, in the 90s maybe 20 percent of people knew how to use computers but 12 percent of those were truly tech savvy and knew the ins and out of using a pc.

      Now a days 90 percent of people know how to use a pc (regardless of the form it presents itself, be it pc, phone, tablet, etc) but only like 30 percent of them might be truly tech savvy.

      It’s still a step up from back then, and because of the nature of tech in industry there’s always gonna be plenty of people who know how to use pcs well and if there aren’t then that’s just more money for us who do know.

    • AOCapitulator [they/them, she/her]@hexbear.net
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      People thought the same thing about written language, that it would ruin everyone’s memory cause they could just write things down and wouldn’t have to go through the honorable effort of rembering everything

      Although, to be fair, they didn’t have capitalism then so our similar worries might be more well founded lol

    • Kairos@lemmy.today
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      4 months ago

      Because its convenient for them. For people who only have a phone Netflix for $2 or so a month is great.

    • 31337@sh.itjust.works
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      4 months ago

      Where I live, I would still need to pay for a VPN to use torrents. I’ve been banned from an ISP before for torrenting (thankfully, I had multiple ISPs available for me).

      At the moment, I just “pay” legally because I get a few “free” streaming plans from my mobile provider and ISP. Occasionally, I just use a free streaming site if I really want to watch something that’s not available to me. Every once in a while, I try anonymous p2p such as Tribler or torrenting over I2P, but it’s still extremely slow, unfortunately. I’ve never used Usenet, but I think it’s about the same price as a VPN or seedbox would be?

      • spaceaape@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        4 months ago

        Get into a private tracker, or rent a VPS in a country that doesn’t bend to the whim of capitalism, torrent to that vps and stream or sync it locally. I find that to have more peace of mind than using a vpn w/Killswitch.

        • geophysicist@discuss.tchncs.de
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          4 months ago

          To get into a private tracker you need to have a good seed to leech ratio, and to do that you need to upload a lot, which is what gets you on the ISP hitlist. This solution is by definition not useful for people in countries where the ISPs enforce no torrenting

          • spaceaape@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            4 months ago

            First, torrenting isn’t illegal, and No ISP “enforces no torrenting” lol

            Your understanding of the solution here is a snake eating its own tail. Might wanna think on that one bud. Did the chicken or the egg come first? Solid Ratio or the private tracker account? Figure out how private trackers work first, then come correct.

            The real answer here is that there are intro private trackers one can join on an invite or free join days. If one desires, one then works on their ratio there to get into a better private tracker.

            Copyright holder’s pay people to take snapshots of all the IP addresses currently leeching or seeding specific material on public trackers, so they can contact the ISP with the info and request they do something about it.

            • geophysicist@discuss.tchncs.de
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              4 months ago

              Are you deliberately being obtuse? They do enforce no torrenting of copyrighted material. Downloading they tend to not care, but uploading will get you legal notices in many EU nations

              • spaceaape@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                4 months ago

                No you’re just not understanding. Torrent is a web protocol, like http, ftp, and more. It’s not inherently illegal.

                When you’re downloading you spend less time on the public tracker and have less chance of being caught downloading than if you’re seeding, or uploading. In the states, the copyright holder takes snapshots of the public trackers IP address pool for specific torrents of their intellectual property, and requests your ISP send you a notice and threaten disconnection.

      • areyouevenreal@lemm.ee
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        4 months ago

        Usenet seems to work really well, and can be surprisingly cheap. Try FrugalUsenet. If you want both VPN and Usenet then try something like Eweka. They do deals where you get both Usenet access and a cheap VPN. It’s about €105 for 15 months or €6.99 per month.

  • stinerman [Ohio]@midwest.social
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    4 months ago

    Ahh the halcyon days of downloading one song from a private FTP server with upload ratios, found by Lycos FTP search. Over a modem, natch, so it took about 50 minutes…and that’s when your mom didn’t kick you off the internet so she could make a call.

  • Churbleyimyam@lemm.ee
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    4 months ago

    I heard that some employers are having to teach new ‘gen z’ employees how to download email attachments…

    • Kit@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      4 months ago

      Gen Z struggles with file systems in general, because the vast majority of their technical experience is on mobile OS’s. However, Gen Z compsci students are somehow far beyond the skill set that millennials had at their age. Or at least that has been my experience with interns over the past 12 years.

      • SkyeStarfall@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        I guess because the Gen Z comp sci students are the people who are truly fluent in computers. We were immersed in the internet and digital technology from a young age, but also had the curiosity to go beneath the surface of them, and get a real understanding of how things work. Most people just use the technology superficially, even if they have grown up with the internet and computers.

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        4 months ago

        I was born in 2001. I didn’t use a smartphone until I was like 16. We grew up with regular computers too. I also grew up with Windows XP and 7, as well as playing Doom using DosBox. Then again I am a computer science graduate, so maybe not the best example.

      • HumanPerson@sh.itjust.works
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        4 months ago

        Gen Z here. Totally agree, though I personally am a bad example for this one. There was someone in my CS class once who I was put into a group with for a project. I needed some code that they had, so I asked them to put it on my flash drive. It was taking a while and eventually I asked why. They didn’t know where their IDE saved their code, and were using Windows search to try and find it. They were pretty good at actual programming, logic, etc. though.

        • Jako301@feddit.de
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          4 months ago

          Tbh, that’s something I can totally understand. Some programs use very obscure savefile locations, usually hidden behind 10 subfolders somewhere under your documents.

          • HumanPerson@sh.itjust.works
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            4 months ago

            I think the teacher specified that we use eclipse, and most who didn’t were using vscode. If I recall correctly, they did use eclipse. I don’t remember how it handles saves, but I don’t think it does that.

      • AVincentInSpace@pawb.social
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        4 months ago

        Everybody always says this, but I’ve yet to talk to anyone who even has an anecdote of talking to a Gen Z person for whom that’s true.

  • Fonzie!@ttrpg.network
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    4 months ago

    What’s the original to template? It looks hilarious!

    Found it! It’s eat hot chip & lie. The text in the original reads:

    any female born after 1993 can’t cook… all they know is mcdonald’s , charge they phone, twerk, be bisexual , eat hot chip & lie

    • Omgboom@lemmy.zip
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      4 months ago

      Besides 1337 who is good?

      Literally any private tracker is a million times better

    • MaermanOP
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      4 months ago

      Depends on what you’re looking for, really. I’m unsure about the rules regarding sharing specific sites, but if you DM me, I can throw a few recommendations your way.

    • Fisch@discuss.tchncs.de
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      4 months ago

      1337 is fine for most stuff, I think. Private trackers start to make sense when you want to automate downloading shows and movies but if you just wanna pirate some game, you’ll probably find it on 1337 with a ton of seeders anyways.

    • CodingCarpenter@lemm.ee
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      4 months ago

      Ha I was actually just thinking that we need to teach them as I was reading this. We had to go through a shit ton of trial and error. God forbid if he started with something like LimeWire. Viruses… Viruses everywhere

    • ElderWendigo@sh.itjust.works
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      4 months ago

      Teach us then 😭

      I think this hits on another big generational difference. Those who grew up in the early days of personal computing and the Internet didn’t have teachers or a hallucinating language model to spoon feed them instant answers. They had to actually RTFM thoroughly before they could even think of asking in some arcane BBS, forum, or IRC for help from elders that had absolutely zero tolerance for incompetence or ignorance. MAN pages and help files came bundled, but the Internet (if you had it) was metered and inconvenient on a scale more like going to the library than ordering a pizza. They had to figure out how to ask the right questions. They had to figure out how to find their own answers. The Internet was so slow that all the really interesting bits were often just text. So much indexed and categorized one might need to learn a little more just to find the right details in that sea of text. There was a lot less instant gratification and no one expected to be able to solve their problems just by asking for help.

      I’ve seen way too many kids give up at the first pebble in their path because they are so accustomed to the instant gratification that has pervaded our culture since the dawn of smart phones.

  • Neps@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    4 months ago

    I was born after 2000 I have to teach my parent how to torrent its not a generational thing lol