Russia annexed territory from Ukraine, and was amassing troops for a further invasion. US intelligence said as much, Russia denied any such plans, then invaded, and ever since, hundreds of thousands of Russian and Ukrainian human beings on Ukrainian soil have been having their flesh shredded by high-powered weapons.
I’d say the fact that Russia:
Annexed quite a bit of Ukrainian territory before the war
Lied about its plans to invade, and
Has troops on the ground all over Ukraine
… shouldn’t really be facts in dispute, and to me those that adds up to “Russia is in the wrong” even without adding in any additional facts which might be more disputable. But you don’t see it that way?
No, I do not in the slightest; considering your analysis rather tellingly leaves out Amerika’s armament of fascists, said armed fascist pogroms against “ethnic Russians” in their territory, the endless violations of the Minsk agreements on the part of the West, and, oh yeah; Amerika literally blew up Nordstream to cut off Germany’s access to Russian gas.
So forgive me when I see you clutching pearls about “how many people injured in this ethnic violence” and think you’re literally so full of shit that when they give you your pre-burial enema, you’ll lose five and a half feet of height.
I’m really not trying to be combative with you brother. I’m not going to be friendly to the viewpoint you’re supporting, but I’m just a person like you – trying to make sense of the world and telling you how I see it. You’ve got no call to be getting insulting or cursing at me just because I’m disagreeing with you.
I think the fascist pogroms against ethnic Russians in Ukraine didn’t exist. The Russian government’s lies leading up to the invasion are well-documented, so it seems weird to argue that their claims of violence against ethnic Russians in Ukraine is unimpeachable evidence that it was happening. Do you have documentation or support for it happening? Do you have a ballpark for how many people were killed or injured in this violence?
I don’t know why you’re talking so mockingly about that question. The objective facts of what was happening are important.
You are right to ask for evidence. The propaganda machine makes it hard to find the truth. The historical context of this war is rarely reported in western media. They used to report on it but now they pretend the history is different and are silent on any facts that would support an alternative narrative. A brief internet search reveals (and I have deliberately found a mixture of sources, most of which are anti-Russia):
After the Maidan coup, ‘Volodymyr Bondarchuk… believes Ukraine’s politicians are not fighting for democracy and ideals “but to control access to money”. Cynicism and frustration towards post-Maidan politics, and the lack of change, in Ukraine is growing.’ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36021231
UN Reported, ‘the total civilian death toll of the conflict has reached at least 3,390. The number of injured civilians is estimated to exceed 7,000.’ https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2021-11/aPR32_final_ENG.pdf. The same document reports: ‘Thirteen civilian casualties resulted from active hostilities: four killed (all men) and nine injured (seven men and two women). Seventy-seven per cent of these (four killed and six injured) were recorded in territory controlled by self-proclaimed ‘republics’, and 23 per cent (three injured) in the Government-controlled part of Donetsk region. For example, on 14 April 2021, a man was killed by mortar shelling in armed group-controlled Donetsk; and on 19 June 2021, a man was injured by heavy machine gun fire in Government-controlled Avdiivka (Donetsk region).’
UN Security Council meeting on 29 May 2018 reported’: “The conflict [in eastern Ukraine] continues to test the credibility of international and regional organizations and erodes the trust Member States need to work together in the interest of Europe’s stability,” said Rosemary DiCarlo, Under‑Secretary‑General for Political Affairs. Repeated pledges to respect the ceasefire as laid out in the 2015 Minsk agreements had failed to end the fighting, now in its fifth year. Destruction and immense suffering continued, she said, noting that the civilian death toll stood at more than 2,700, with up to 9,000 injured.’ https://press.un.org/en/2018/sc13357.doc.htm
Nah, see, I’m not cordial with sealions at all. And that’s exactly what you’re doing. JAQ’ing off, I think they call it now. So we’re just gonna ignore all the shelling in the leadup to the 2020s? We’re just gonna ignore the GLOBAL HEADLINES that made? We’re just gonna ignore the 14,000 dropped bodies since 2014? We’re just gonna ignore all the Wolfsengels, Totenkopfs, and other assorted nazi paraphernalia while you hoist all those water buckets?
I can’t wait to see what you’ll ignore when those chickens finally come home to roost. Fuck out my inbox; you’re no longer welcome to a dialogue with me. It was funny, now you’re just sickening me.
Nothing says “My viewpoint’s on solid footing” like responding to clear factual questions with vigorous anger, insults, and angry refusal to continue the conversation.
But sure, it’s 100% up to you who you want to communicate with and how. I’ll not respond to you again if that’s your preference.
9 years of headlines vs. “just trust my liberal-ass analysis bro, i swear this isn’t made the fuck up out of state department cloth, bro; don’t you believe in debate” No. No I do not. Not with the likes of your kind.
This is accurate, yes; the neo-Nazi organization and their involvement in the 2014 revolution are real.
How does that justify Russia’s invasion? Are they defending Ukrainians against neo-Nazis, by bombing Ukrainian cities, and a Jewish leader is leading the Ukrainians in a war of aggression on Ukrainian soil against their well-intentioned de-Nazification effort? I’m not trying to be flip about something so serious, but it sounds like that’s what some other people in this thread are telling me. Would you agree with all of that, or how would you characterize it?
Russia sees this war as a war for their existence. They tried to join NATO several times after the fall of the USSR and were prevented from doing so. The current Russian state is capitalist, yes, but they are on the other side of the imperialist bloc they would have rather been a part of. What does that make NATO but an explicitly anti-Russian alliance? And even if we were to pretend it isn’t, why should Russia trust NATO? Especially after the US and EU sank the Minsk agreement and revealed that they only supported it in bad faith anyway? Especially since the US has been openly talking about shutting down the Nord Stream pipeline since even began construction? Especially since US state representatives were present during the Maidan revolution, shaking hands with Nazis in photos, and discussing in leaked audio how they will engineer regime change in Ukraine (said engineer has continued to be involved in the Biden White House).
Given that last time Nazis were on Russia’s border, over 10 million Russians (over 20 mil Soviet citizens) perished in a war of record-breaking proportions, and now Nazis are here again and the US is attempting to make them part of the Western imperial club with nukes and everything… What, in your opinion, is the rational, compassionate action that Russia supposed to take?
I think the real reason Russia invaded was because they could not tolerate Ukraine joining NATO. The US wouldn’t do anything different if this had happened in Canada during the cold war. Hell, they invaded Cuba for this. I’m sympathetic to Russia on this one because I do NOT want a unipolar world.
A Jewish leader does not mean that Ukraine is not dangerously far right wing. It’s like saying racism is defeated in the US because it had a black president. As for bombing Ukraine? Look up Ukraine’s cluster bomb usage in 2014-2022. When your soldiers are using weapons that are banned in most of the world on your own citizens, and your soldiers are wearing skulls on their uniforms, you surely have to ask if you’re the baddies?
Basically, I think NATO didn’t leave Russia much choice. And I don’t support fascist nations anyway. Sorry, no links this time. At the airport.
Of course they did; conveniently skipping over the why is literally the only reason Empire gets to sit back and pearl-clutch and breathlessly justify their literally terrorist movements against the EU’s access to resources. Exactly what I thought.
Russia annexed territory from Ukraine, and was amassing troops for a further invasion. US intelligence said as much, Russia denied any such plans, then invaded, and ever since, hundreds of thousands of Russian and Ukrainian human beings on Ukrainian soil have been having their flesh shredded by high-powered weapons.
I’d say the fact that Russia:
… shouldn’t really be facts in dispute, and to me those that adds up to “Russia is in the wrong” even without adding in any additional facts which might be more disputable. But you don’t see it that way?
No, I do not in the slightest; considering your analysis rather tellingly leaves out Amerika’s armament of fascists, said armed fascist pogroms against “ethnic Russians” in their territory, the endless violations of the Minsk agreements on the part of the West, and, oh yeah; Amerika literally blew up Nordstream to cut off Germany’s access to Russian gas.
So forgive me when I see you clutching pearls about “how many people injured in this ethnic violence” and think you’re literally so full of shit that when they give you your pre-burial enema, you’ll lose five and a half feet of height.
I’m really not trying to be combative with you brother. I’m not going to be friendly to the viewpoint you’re supporting, but I’m just a person like you – trying to make sense of the world and telling you how I see it. You’ve got no call to be getting insulting or cursing at me just because I’m disagreeing with you.
I think the fascist pogroms against ethnic Russians in Ukraine didn’t exist. The Russian government’s lies leading up to the invasion are well-documented, so it seems weird to argue that their claims of violence against ethnic Russians in Ukraine is unimpeachable evidence that it was happening. Do you have documentation or support for it happening? Do you have a ballpark for how many people were killed or injured in this violence?
I don’t know why you’re talking so mockingly about that question. The objective facts of what was happening are important.
You are right to ask for evidence. The propaganda machine makes it hard to find the truth. The historical context of this war is rarely reported in western media. They used to report on it but now they pretend the history is different and are silent on any facts that would support an alternative narrative. A brief internet search reveals (and I have deliberately found a mixture of sources, most of which are anti-Russia):
spoiler
That’s the problem, you are denying a genocide that has lots of evidence.
Warning, extremely graphic and disturbing: https://youtu.be/-M33UUZCSSs
A lecture by John Mearsheimer discussing the start of the ukraine conflict: https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4
I also recommend watching Ukraine on fire documentary by Oliver Stone.
Can you send me some of this evidence? How many people were killed in this genocide?
Warning, extremely graphic and disturbing: https://youtu.be/-M33UUZCSSs
A lecture by John Mearsheimer discussing the start of the ukraine conflict: https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4
I also recommend watching Ukraine on fire documentary by Oliver Stone.
Look two comments above that was posted 15 minutes before you asked this. It seems you’re bent on trying to deny what doesn’t fit your ‘feelings’.
Nah, see, I’m not cordial with sealions at all. And that’s exactly what you’re doing. JAQ’ing off, I think they call it now. So we’re just gonna ignore all the shelling in the leadup to the 2020s? We’re just gonna ignore the GLOBAL HEADLINES that made? We’re just gonna ignore the 14,000 dropped bodies since 2014? We’re just gonna ignore all the Wolfsengels, Totenkopfs, and other assorted nazi paraphernalia while you hoist all those water buckets?
I can’t wait to see what you’ll ignore when those chickens finally come home to roost. Fuck out my inbox; you’re no longer welcome to a dialogue with me. It was funny, now you’re just sickening me.
Nothing says “My viewpoint’s on solid footing” like responding to clear factual questions with vigorous anger, insults, and angry refusal to continue the conversation.
But sure, it’s 100% up to you who you want to communicate with and how. I’ll not respond to you again if that’s your preference.
9 years of headlines vs. “just trust my liberal-ass analysis bro, i swear this isn’t made the fuck up out of state department cloth, bro; don’t you believe in debate” No. No I do not. Not with the likes of your kind.
How about response on the wall of info Redtea sent you? You didn’t commented any of that, signifying BCR is absolutely correct.
Here’s russian propaganda from US Congress in 2018.
This is accurate, yes; the neo-Nazi organization and their involvement in the 2014 revolution are real.
How does that justify Russia’s invasion? Are they defending Ukrainians against neo-Nazis, by bombing Ukrainian cities, and a Jewish leader is leading the Ukrainians in a war of aggression on Ukrainian soil against their well-intentioned de-Nazification effort? I’m not trying to be flip about something so serious, but it sounds like that’s what some other people in this thread are telling me. Would you agree with all of that, or how would you characterize it?
Russia sees this war as a war for their existence. They tried to join NATO several times after the fall of the USSR and were prevented from doing so. The current Russian state is capitalist, yes, but they are on the other side of the imperialist bloc they would have rather been a part of. What does that make NATO but an explicitly anti-Russian alliance? And even if we were to pretend it isn’t, why should Russia trust NATO? Especially after the US and EU sank the Minsk agreement and revealed that they only supported it in bad faith anyway? Especially since the US has been openly talking about shutting down the Nord Stream pipeline since even began construction? Especially since US state representatives were present during the Maidan revolution, shaking hands with Nazis in photos, and discussing in leaked audio how they will engineer regime change in Ukraine (said engineer has continued to be involved in the Biden White House).
Given that last time Nazis were on Russia’s border, over 10 million Russians (over 20 mil Soviet citizens) perished in a war of record-breaking proportions, and now Nazis are here again and the US is attempting to make them part of the Western imperial club with nukes and everything… What, in your opinion, is the rational, compassionate action that Russia supposed to take?
I think the real reason Russia invaded was because they could not tolerate Ukraine joining NATO. The US wouldn’t do anything different if this had happened in Canada during the cold war. Hell, they invaded Cuba for this. I’m sympathetic to Russia on this one because I do NOT want a unipolar world.
A Jewish leader does not mean that Ukraine is not dangerously far right wing. It’s like saying racism is defeated in the US because it had a black president. As for bombing Ukraine? Look up Ukraine’s cluster bomb usage in 2014-2022. When your soldiers are using weapons that are banned in most of the world on your own citizens, and your soldiers are wearing skulls on their uniforms, you surely have to ask if you’re the baddies?
Basically, I think NATO didn’t leave Russia much choice. And I don’t support fascist nations anyway. Sorry, no links this time. At the airport.
You conveniently skip over the reasons WHY Russia invaded.
Of course they did; conveniently skipping over the why is literally the only reason Empire gets to sit back and pearl-clutch and breathlessly justify their literally terrorist movements against the EU’s access to resources. Exactly what I thought.