America’s Abrams tanks are failing on the battlefield in Ukraine as Russia has labelled them “empty tin cans”.
  • SineIraEtStudio@midwest.social
    321·
    6 months ago

    Relevant text:

    Ukrainian crews say the fundamental problem is that the Abrams were built for advances aided by air power and artillery, which Ukraine lacks.

    Russia, meanwhile, continues to make heavy use of drones in its attacks, which the Abrams struggle to defend against.

  • Joker Charlie@lemmy.zipEnglish
    133·
    6 months ago

    There a lot of factors in to why the Abrams isn’t doing as well in Ukraine. Like the article stated, drone attacks are a new threat that no older tank was designed for. Then there is the lack of training. The US has trained a lot with these tanks and know their weaknesses and develop their tactics with this knowledge in mind.

    • krolden
      121·
      6 months ago

      So why did they send them to Ukraine?

      • deranger@sh.itjust.works
        10·
        6 months ago

        Because it’s good to get rid of old equipment, at least from the military’s perspective. They get money for the old hardware and now can justify getting more new stuff.

        • krolden
          51·
          6 months ago

          Really? Sounds like they just make easier targets

          • DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social
            13·
            6 months ago

            To people that don’t know what they’re talking about, or are still refusing to acknowledge that Ukraine has more tanks than it started with and Russia has many, many, many, fewer, sure.

            The discrepancy is so large that Ukraine has more tanks than Russia now. That they’re effectively obsolete for their price is irrelevant, it’s still better and requires more firepower to deal with than a couple dudes with rifles.

      • Joker Charlie@lemmy.zipEnglish
        39·
        6 months ago

        For the same reason they have sent billions of dollars there…to show their support. This isn’t the first country that the US has provided equipment for with little or no training…or without critical equipment onboard (i.e. specialized RADAR or electronics systems)

        • krolden
          101·
          6 months ago

          Lol nothing shows your support like tin cans that get blown up easy.

          • Joker Charlie@lemmy.zipEnglish
            22·
            6 months ago

            Once again, it depends on how their are used, deployed, and how the crews are trained. The Ukraine may be using them in ways that they were not designed, or using tactics that put the tank in a bad position.

    • mctoasterson@reddthat.com
      5·
      6 months ago

      Right, they need close air support, infantry support, scouts, supply chain logistics etc. all working together to be peak effective. If you just give some dudes an Abrams and a crash course in driving it and firing the main gun, they will be better off than the same crew of randos in a technical made out of a Toyota Tacoma, but they will still be vulnerable to modern threats.

      It’s easy to understand why the modern drone threat is uniquely game-changing if you think of war like chess. Most advanced powers have now figured out that having a developed drone program is like giving yourself infinite pawns. You keep trading pawns for the opponents more valuable pieces. If Russia is able to spend a few thousand in drone hardware and explosives and destroy a multimillion dollar tank, they’ll make that trade any day.

      • Joker Charlie@lemmy.zipEnglish
        2·
        6 months ago

        There could be many reasons. I don’t know where they are deploying them, how much training the crews have had and many others that factor into survivability. I’m not saying the Abrams is the best tank ever, just saying that there are many factors that can contribute to why they aren’t doing well in the field for the Ukraine.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
          65·
          6 months ago

          Sure, I agree with that. There are tangible factors that make T-72 a better tank though. It’s a simpler design, making it easier to produce and maintain. It’s more manoeuvrable, it’s lighter so it doesn’t get stuck in mud. Doesn’t use a turbine engine, which has been a cause for endless problems. So, while many factors combine to decide overall effectiveness, the quality of the weapon itself is important as well.

          • Joker Charlie@lemmy.zipEnglish
            11·
            6 months ago

            Each tank has their advantages, but if you’re going to have an army use a tank with little to no training or spare parts, the T-72 is definitely a no brainer.

            • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
              43·
              6 months ago

              Or you know a tank that will be used in actual battle conditions where you’re not going to have guaranteed support. The whole NATO strategy has been to invade small defenceless countries and brutalize people there. You don’t need to worry about stuff like logistics in these situations. A real war is a different animal.

              • Joker Charlie@lemmy.zipEnglish
                11·
                6 months ago

                Once again, it depends on where the tanks are deployed and what training the crews have. We do not know if these weapons were deployed and used in the same way. Unless you know this, you can’t really say.

                • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
                  31·
                  6 months ago

                  Western media has been telling us that Ukrainians have been trained up to NATO standards. So, going by that we have to assume that that’s the quality of NATO training and weaponry on display.

          • BlueBockser@programming.dev
            33·
            6 months ago

            more manoeuvrable

            Ah yes, there’s nothing quite like a 4 km/h reverse speed. That’s a really tangible factor making the T-72 a better tank.

      • MrScruff
        64·
        6 months ago

        1. That article talks about the t-14 armada like it’s a real tank, it’s obviously absolute garbage

        2. There a list a mile long of visual t-72b3 visually confirm kills

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
          76·
          6 months ago

          T-14 is a new design that’s currently being tested, meanwhile any kind of tank can be taken out. The fact that you think that’s remarkable shows that you’re utterly clueless on the subject you’re opining on. The question is how different tanks compare, and Abrams so far is the one tank that looks to be pure garbage.

            • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
              42·
              6 months ago

              Evidently you’re having trouble with the concept of something being in development. Try applying the same logic to F-35, how long has that turd been in development now with only 30% of them being functional?

                • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
                  41·
                  6 months ago

                  How many times have F35s been used for anything other than crashing into the ocean?

          • BlueBockser@programming.dev
            23·
            6 months ago

            currently being tested

            They’ve been “testing” it for more than a decade at this point and even if Russia is able to actually bring the T-14 into service, they won’t be able to produce any significant number of them for the same reason their tank corps isn’t using many T-90M right now.

            pure garbage

            Go look up Operation Desert Storm and rethink what you wrote there.

            If there’s anything here that’s garbage, it’s your notions about tank design.

            • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
              42·
              6 months ago

              They’ve been “testing” it for more than a decade at this point and even if Russia is able to actually bring the T-14 into service, they won’t be able to produce any significant number of them for the same reason their tank corps isn’t using many T-90M right now.

              Uh yeah, developing new weapons platforms takes a long time. Look at how long US has been fumbling trying to make F-35 work. Also, if you still think that Russia doesn’t have industrial capacity to mass produce these, then you might want to read what people with a clue have to say https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/attritional-art-war-lessons-russian-war-ukraine

              Go look up Operation Desert Storm and rethink what you wrote there.

              LMFAO yeah, Abrams is great at blowing up tanks from the 70s with barely trained crews. Not so good at modern warfare against a peer competitor.

              If there’s anything here that’s garbage, it’s your notions about tank design.

              Any tank where electronics start to break down when it rains is very obviously a giant piece of shit.

              One, parked under a tree, was almost immobile during CNN’s visit, due to an engine problem, the crew say, despite the vehicle having just been shipped in from Poland. They also complain of how, in rain or fog, condensation can fry the electronics inside the vehicle.

              https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/29/europe/ukraine-war-us-tanks-intl/index.html

              • Joker Charlie@lemmy.zipEnglish
                11·
                6 months ago

                So the superior Russian army destroying the ill trained Ukrainians is not the same thing? Interesting…

                • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
                  31·
                  6 months ago

                  Given that Ukrainians have been trained up to NATO standards for the past eight years, you’re presumably admitting something about the quality of NATO training. Interesting…