Sorry, not trying to be spammy it just hit my front page twice, and I have the same response both times! :)
Yeah a lot of the anti biden posts feel orchestrated to discourage people from voting similarly how it worked for trump against Clinton
I’ll say this: Though the result is the same, I feel much more okay with posts pushing a specific third party they’re inspired by than going the same “anybody else” route we take with Biden without actually naming someone or listing policies.
When they don’t name anyone, I’m more likely to agree with you it’s just a distraction unwilling to focus on a genuine plan of action.
Likewise, a lot of “Biden or else” is sure starting to feel like a cult that’s turning “no more genocide” as a “is vote for Trump” election campaign.
WOAH! You can’t just talk about CONSEQUENCES! That’s just trying to THREATEN people into VOTING the way you want them to!
This is wonderful and needs to be pasted on every one of these posts…
Don’t make him tap the sign
You can dislike Biden, but a vote for anyone else is a vote for Trump.
This is true because we are not a democracy. We only pretend to be one.
While that may be true, nothing will fix that in this upcoming election. Vote Biden, then set to work fixing our democracy.
Popping up every four years and complain about the two party system, only to disappear afterwards is never going to solve the problem.
You’re a flawed democracy with an outdated election system. The FPTP one seat districts forces two party politics.
I hate this line of thinking so much. Flawed democracies are still democracies. Democracy isn’t a word that means “fair elections”.
We’re a republic.
Which is a type of democracy.
It’s more like half a vote for trump, so they’re only half supporting a fascist dictator which is slightly better
You’re a broken record
This is fucking insidious.
I vote for anyone else, is in fact, a vote of that person.
Not in a two party system.
*not under first past the post / winner takes all voting, which leads to a two party system.
if you aren’t with me, then you are against me.
It’s a black and white fallacy. When the only thing that is being expressed is criticism or discontent.
Hi! I’m a mathematician. I specialize in creating logical arguments as well as finding and explaining the flaws thereof. The Black and White fallacy does not apply here. First, we need to keep in mind the principle of charity, whereby we try to figure out what was meant by our interlocutors when we argue with them, as far as we can by what they said. In this case, the argument here is not literally that all votes that are for someone other than Biden are instead counted for Trump (this premise would have a great many flaws far beyond the fallacy you gave) rather, it is a statement of the failures of certain voting strategies which are well-established mathematical facts. Specifically, if you prefer candidate A over candidate B, and all other candidates have a combined extremely small chance of winning, choosing not to vote for candidate A is effectively making candidate B’s victory more likely.
Hope that clears things up.
If you vote for anyone else other than Biden, it increases Trumps chance to win (due to a lower amount of total votes for Biden) since we are a 2 party system even though we pretend we aren’t. Is this not widely known? We know it’s not a literal vote for Trump, but it might as well be a theoretical one.
Is this not widely known?
It is, in fact, widely known.
since we are a 2 party system even though we pretend we aren’t
De-jure we are a multi-party system. De-facto we are a 2 party system.
If you vote for anyone else other than Biden, it increases Trumps chance to win […] We know it’s not a literal vote for Trump, but it might as well be a theoretical one.
Without splitting any further hairs, yes; that’s essentially correct.
It’s really an orange or grey thing.
The only “black and white” part of this is that Biden or trump WILL win the election.
It’s not black and white, but red and blue.
Fallacies apply to debate, not to actions like voting.
Fallacies can apply in any situation where reasoning and logic is used. In my experience, most successful actions are backed up by reasoning.
“Reasoning about” isn’t the same as “performing” an action.
I agree that the person who you originally replied to is wrong (see my comment below) but you’re putting forth a bad argument. It is true that reasoning about and performing an action are different. However, this isn’t relevant to whether bringing up the fallacy in this context is valid. To the point: we are currently talking about and (ostensibly) reasoning whether a specific course of action is good or not. I think that it’s good to vote for Biden. I am overwhelmingly likely to vote for Biden. However, if I voted for Biden because I thought Trump was an actual robot, and therefore unnatural, and therefore bad I’d be committing the appeal to nature fallacy. Now, it just so happens that my counter-factual self would have stumbled upon the correct conclusion, but the fallacy would have been committed nonetheless.
My point was more about the fact that voting in our FPTP system, mathematically, is an act not subject to the same “black & white” fallacy label as a discussion about who is the best candidate, because it actually is a choice between the top two candidates, which is why splitting the vote has been an enduring strategy.
But your illustration about the Fallacy fallacy—that is to say that even if something were a fallacy, that doesn’t in itself mean it is untrue—is also a fair point.
That’s not how voting works but whatever you need to say to feel better.
Ideological purity is great from the privileged position you must be in. The real results of Stein voters in the last election is millions losing rights to bodily autonomy, children being forcibly separated from families, a Christian nationalism Supreme Court, and a president playing favorites during the worst pandemic in living memory. There may be some compromises needed to fix a broken system but third parties are not likely to do anything except split the vote and cause harm
Give me a fucking break if you think Hillary Clinton losing is because of Jill Stein
Stein and Johnson had between 2 (FL) and 20 (MI) times the number of votes making up the margin between Trump and Clinton in FL, WI, MI, and PA. That would have made a difference.
Either way, no third party is viable under the current system and pretending otherwise is the luxury of people who won’t be targeted if the Trump administration is allowed back into power.
It is the luxury of the profoundly dense as well. Plenty of non-cis white males vote third party.
Cis white males don’t benefit from a Trump presidency either, they just don’t get fucked quite as much as everyone else. They’re still going to get poorer and suffer from reduced workers rights.
The only people who are truly safe are the ultra wealthy
If enough people vote third party, it’s supposed to pull the big two towards them to recapture those voters. If the Dems aren’t courting these voters, it’s their fault and an indication that they can’t be trusted to represent us. Instead, they ignored us completely and will continue down the same bullshit paths that brought us here. If we don’t vote third party, nothing will change because the Dems view us as suckers who will fall in line. That’s why they shamelessly did Bernie dirty. Biden and the Dems have been flopping around their hardon for Israel while it’s obviously splitting their base. It’s almost like they want to lose.
Having said all that, I may vote for Biden this time anyway because I told myself long ago that I would vote for the first prez who rescheduled or legalized cannabis.
i’m pretty sure it was the other way around. jill stein lost by fewer votes than hilary stole from the green party. the democrats spoiled the green revolution.
trump was carrying on the obama-era policy of child-separation, as biden continued after trump. biden also voted for most of the members of the court who overturned roe v wade. i don’t think biden is the guy for people who don’t like what trump did.
There were absolutely changes in the separation policies across administrations. While it’s not perfect, we are compliant with international law and it was Trump driving from the sidelines that killed an immigration reform bill earlier this year.
He could have only possibly have voted for 2 of the five in the majority in Dobbs. Any Democratic nominee to the court would be better for human rights and policy reform. Congressional majority beyond Sinema and Manchin could bring real court reform.
The point still is that the philosophical argument for third party ignores the reality of the current system and the real cost for not presenting a unified front with the current voting system. Republicans are working to lock in any systematic advantage they can so the odds are already skewed. Democratic governments, currently at the state and local levels, are the only ones addressing gerrymandering (CA) and ranked choice (MA) which could make third parties viable but right now they are a vanity vote that distracts from the real harm being caused by one party.
I haven’t voted for a Democrat for president since 2008, and no amount of mischaracterization of the material facts is going to change that. if Democrats want my vote, it’s not as though they don’t know what Jill Stein or Cornel West or Claudia de la Cruz are doing to earn it.
Sometimes it feels better to rage than to compromise but I’m guessing there is nothing I can say to change your mind. For those on the fence who may read this though: a third party will not win and not voting Democrat will cause real harm to any community that does not strictly adhere to Christian nationalism ideals.
Removed by mod
So you aren’t familiar with first past the post voting? Here’s a hint, it’s “how voting works” in this country.
The more people seen voting for alternative parties the more apparent the electoral systems failure will become.
But sure sit by and watch the groundhog day that is the american electoral system.
I can’t wait for those alternative parties to get <10% of the vote while fascists destroy the country and never give a shit who you voted for.
since democrats and republicans are both fascists, the only way to vote against fascism is to vote for a party other than them.
It seems like you don’t actually know what fascism is.
I certainly do.
Who is this pointing it out to? The major players are already very aware that it’s fucked but only one party is doing anything about that (ranked choice). If your voting block is so fickle then they will turn their focus to shoring up their core bases, ignoring yours. The other side sure isn’t interested in any improvement.
After 2016 there was no one saying “wow we should have talked more about basic income”, the existential threat to democracy was kind of the bigger deal there. Even after 2020, the slim majority in congress limited the progressive power and handed the decisions to the center right dems (Sinema and Manchin).
But sure, splitting the vote to dilute the pool further or hand a win over to the other side will sure move the needle.
So you voting for fascist cheeto or brain worms?
I’m voting third party as I have in the general for years. I’ve said this before.
Brain worms it is.
I’m sure your dislike of Biden will make up for Trump declaring himself dictator for life.
Having concerns is fine, but in a 2 party system, not voting for the lesser evil is same as voting for the greater evil.
Trump is even worse for the Palestinians and Ukraine so this is a red herring.
Biden better start working harder to earn more votes then.
not voting for the lesser evil is same as voting for the greater evil.
no, it’s not.
You seem more reasonable then a lot of the other mouth breathers on lemmy. What policy decisions do you look for in a presidential candidate besides being anti genocide? I have yet to hear anyone from that camp speak on any other positions they care about, and it’s rather worrying.
Universal healthcare, college for all, raise the federal wage to a livable wage, guaranteed housing, massive increase in public transportation, 4-day work week with same pay, tax the rich at a 50% or greater tax rate, ban corporations from owning housing. These are just a start.
What candidate supports all those that has a viable chance of winning?
Winning? No this is all acedemic. So we can have a moral high ground while the world burns. Winning? Lol
viability is a myth. john kerry was supposedly viable.
Dr West is the closest but he won’t win. The United States is a very conservative country. Even Pelosi said we’re capitalists. I hate it here.
It’s how it works in a two party system.
If you think a 3rd party candidate has any hope of winning this year, you’re delusional.
I’m not sure you understand first past the post, and how it disenfranchises you
…And yet all sorts of people want to talk about “not voting for Biden” says the opposite
I am (once again, unfortunately) voting against Trump. That means there’s really only one box for me to check in our rigged, corrupt, popular-vote-undermining, first-past-the-post system.
And yet I still don’t consider that a vote for Genocide Joe, it is just a vote against Trump in the only way our two-party oligarchy will allow.
You can tell we have a great system of governance by how it encourages us to gaslight ourselves to relieve the cognitive dissonance it creates.
I respect your decision even though I can’t vote for Genocide Joe. I’m so tired of people trying to guilt me into voting for him like they have a say over my vote.
I get that you don’t think Trump was that bad, and respect your decision
“My PRIMARY goal is to have GOOD THINGS for the UNITED STATES which is why I am deeply concerned about Joe Biden and will NEVER vote for him.”
“Yeah what good things? Fixing the problems definitely sounds like a priority, I love good things.”
“Joe Biden FUCKED UP our marijuana policy and BETRAYED US which is why I cannot POSSIBLY support him and I can’t see why you are CRAZY AND CONFUSED and said I am a Trump supporter.”
“That sounds like a big reform, which yes it would be great, but it’s not like failing to pass it means sliding into fascism, also he pardoned everyone in federal prison for possession, and the Democrats have advanced multiple bills for federal decriminalization which the Republicans keep defeating (*), and Biden requested the DEA to reschedule it. Is there something else you would you want him to do, on his end?”
(there is an interval of silence)
(*) slight oversimplification
“My PRIMARY goal is to have GOOD THINGS for the UNITED STATES like GOOD MARIJUANA POLICY which is extremely important which is why I CANNOT support Joe Biden and will plan NEVER to vote for him. This message will repeat in thirty seconds from now.”
Based on real events
I’ve encountered similar “discussions.”
You can also point out that the President cannot decriminalize a drug. That requires an act of Congress. This is the link to the bill most likely to see a vote. It includes record expungement as well as decriminalization. It’s cosponsored by 113 Democrats and Matt Gaetz, ‘cause he knows how to party.
Not a big Biden guy myself, but I’m still voting for him because I’m not stupid and I know exactly what’s at stake.
According to CNN, current third-party alternatives would seem to be more damaging to Biden.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/17/politics/third-parties-elections-what-matters/index.html
Sounds like Biden and the DNC fucked up.
Yeah it really sucks that Trump’s going to be elected, but at least a select group of people on Lemmy can feel validated
How so? Neither of them have any say in third-party candidates. They’re running under Green Party, No Labels, and Third Way.
You say that, but your choice of messages are certainly a regularly occurring help to Trump.
Where’s the part where it helps Trump? We supposedly live in a democracy, I’m voicing my opinion.
Where’s the part where it helps Trump?
The part where the reality is we have a plurality voting system (“First past the post”) in place today.
We supposedly live in a democracy,
We do.
I’m voicing my opinion.
You are.
I’m not saying the rule of law should prevent you from doing what you’re doing (I’m not a fan of fascism). However, you’re being willfully ignorant if you acknowledge our plurality voting system, but claim your work convincing people not to vote for Biden doesn’t also helps Trump become president again.
Vote for whoever you want. Biden, Trump, third party, write in, don’t vote, your choice. Democracy at work.
You asked how you’re helping Trump. I answered. Once again you ignore the reality of the plurality voting system and refuse to acknowledge the consequences of your actions in helping Trump become president.
I guess every NBC News, CNN, MSNBC, WaPo, news orgs that dare criticize Biden are all “helping Trump” too then, right?
Sorry, I’m not taking your distraction bait.
If you are so strong in your convictions, so honest in your statements, and so solid in your belief of what you’re doing is right, why is it so difficult for you to admit the reality of what you’re doing? Even if I don’t agree with what you’re doing and why, I don’t see why you dance so hard around the fact that plurality voting, with your actions to convince people not to vote for Biden, are helping Trump?
Why is that so hard for you to admit?
only votes for trump help trump.
“oh no! Biden lost the whole election because of a meme on something called Lemmy!” Really?
If you base your vote or non-vote off of memes on a social media site…
In a way, yes. The mainstream media has consistently failed the electorate for years and years. They don’t get a pass.
It sounds like you want to get rid of journalists unless they make the candidate you want look good. Slippery slope.
I don’t get it, what you detail is democracy, and these people are being hideous about it, if someone wants to vote third party then that’s they’re democratic right and to nag and ostracise someone for they’re democratic right is manipulative.
if someone wants to vote third party then that’s they’re democratic right and to nag and ostracise someone for they’re democratic right is manipulative.
Oh, right, only the people you agree with have the right to freedom of speech.
No I am glad to look through the comments and see everyone use they’re freedom in a dignified and informative way, when freedom of speech turns to calling someone a slur *(used as a slur perhaps) like fascist or form a fictitious narrative meant to repress and shame is when I take issue.
It’s nothing new. They scream and voter shame every election year. Been dealing with this for awhile now.
Its reductive and sickening.
Keep doing you mate.
If the race is neck and neck, and you vote for Micky mouse because you wanna feel superior to everyone around you, all you’ve done is make things worse.
Depending on your location, you may have directly helped trump.
a vote for mickey mouse doesn’t help trump. only a vote for trump helps trump.
Wrong. In some cases, if your district is competitive, and you’ve decided to vote for not-trump, if you vote for anyone but the other competitive candidate (in this case Biden), you allow trump to pull ahead due to first past the post voting.
Edit: hypothetically if only 4 people vote,
2 for trump 1 for Biden 1 for mickey
Trump wins.
Edit edit or more compelling…
5 total voters.
2 for trump 1 for Biden 1 for Mickey and one abstains
Trump wins. If the mickey and the abstain voters don’t want trump, their best action was to vote for Biden, as that would have achieved:
2 for trump 3 for Biden 0 for mickey.
Biden wins.
You’re already moving the goalposts.
Bullshit. All conditions I just laid out, were declared in my above comment. Including location dependence.
Edit because you seem to need help… The location dependence I’m referring to is that you need to be in a sufficiently competitive location for that clause to be relevant.
you said a vote for anyone but Biden is a vote for trump. you’re backing away from that now, softening the claim to say it “allows him to pull ahead”. I’m just trying to keep the rhetoric honest.
Calm down. I’m in California. My vote doesn’t count.
Go cry to the 65 million that don’t vote at all.
This is a thread with you in it, not a broadcast to all possible non voters.
Are you the politics police?
No but I’ll happily call out people manipulating context to maliciously try to deflect and derail.
Your anti Biden campaign is what counts here because a) we are all here and b) every voter who reads it is not in California. You want to hate Biden that’s totally fine and cool, but leave this hypocritical shit at home. You are an anti Biden loudspeaker around here, not an anti trump voice who likes Biden less.
Most of us see your posts and roll our eyes, but if you sour 10 minds to Biden and your vote doesn’t count, who are you helping? Not the non voters, not the voters who feel like you just posted (of which I am one), just the red hat brigade.
If you want to be for trump then do it, if you want to hate Biden do it, but you’re yanking our dicks around here and I for one don’t like it. Do what you want, but expect this kind of response from the community to keep worsening; not that a downvote ever hurt anybody.
Continue to downvoted but also fight back for Biden. Start posting some positive articles and listing his policies and accomplishments. Better yet, sign up to volunteer for the Biden campaign. Phone calls, texts, canvassing, etc. I tried to find the volunteer sign up on Biden’s website but I don’t see one though so maybe he doesn’t care about volunteers.
As I rule I don’t post because I get too sucked into it instead of, you know, being a good dad lol. Yes I also have not found a Biden volunteer option besides cold calling, so I walk for my state rep in my down time instead.
This may not be as credible as your meme, but CNN points out the “spoiler effects” of third-party candidates. They very rarely even receive a Electoral College vote.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/17/politics/third-parties-elections-what-matters/index.html
That last expression in your screenshots is great 😍
For every person that says they hate biden but will vote for him anyway there are dozens who just don’t get it, think “they’re both bad” and can’t be bothered voting because they’d have to figure it out.
Honestly, you idiots are doing exactly what the republicans would have you do. You’re cannibalising support for the left. Well done.
I’ve seen this meme twice today and thought exactly as you just said each time.
Fuck you. There are tons of us who are extremely critical of Biden without being stupid enough to withhold a vote against Trump. But people like you will blame us anyway if he wins. And the part where you couch it in “will vote for him anyway there are dozens who just don’t get it,” you’re talking down to a lot of people who absolutely understand what’s at stake.
you’re talking down to a lot of people
No I’m not.
The vast majority of voters really are that disinterested. Any narrative to muddy the waters more complex than “Trump bad Biden good” will discourage them from voting.
If you’re unable to see that then you’re too stupid to see you’ve been manipulated by conservatives.
If you’re unable to see that then you’re too stupid to see you’ve been manipulated by conservatives.
This is about the most myopic and dismissive insult I’ve received since joining Lemmy. Congrats! All my political education and seeking information was for nothing. I’m a tool of the christofascists that I hate. You’re right. I’ll hang up my spurs and show myself out. Fuck off.
There there pet.
Remember to vote for Biden.
So if we all ask really nicely and promise to stop taking the piss about imperial measurements and the absurd size of your motor vehicles can you promise not to vote for trump again? 👉👈🥺
I think in American fashion, if you want to influence our political leanings, there will have to be an exchange of money or services.
But, please remember to call it lobbying. Otherwise, it just sounds like bribery!
It’s really hard to take this position seriously when we can see all the political propaganda coming in from other countries. You sound like nothing more then a Russian bot to me at this point.
The sad thing is that the majority of the gop, sans the MAGAheads, basically say the same thing in private with Biden and Trump flipped.
Dislike Biden all you want, but if you don’t vote for him, and Trump wins, you become an honorary Nazi and it’s morally permissable to kill you.
Another one? Fine…
I will never vote for Joe Biden again and if you’re looking for an alternative the party for socialism and liberation has a platform of Palestinian statehood and ending arms shipments to israel.
If you want election reform their platform also includes radical expansions of democracy!
I don’t really want Biden again either but a vote for anyone else is a vote for Trump.
That’s literally not true.
My past third party votes were not counted towards other candidates and if you’re using the logic that any third party vote takes away from possible Biden votes you may have missed it when I said I would never vote for Joe Biden again.
I will absolutely never vote for Joe Biden again.
Nothing will ever make me willingly cast a ballot for him again. I’d vote third party if it was Biden versus Hitler.
There are people as disgusted with Biden as I am who simply don’t know that there are alternatives aside from the worthless greens, actively harmful libertarians and joke candidates like Afro man and vermin supreme.
A vote for the party for socialism and liberation goes toward a party that shows up at protests, runs local candidates and has a cohesive platform.
The support that vote confers helps them get funding, event presence, ballot presence, media attention and of course public awareness.
If you want better democrats, not psl, voting for psl shows democrats in terms that cannot be deepfaked, covered up or minimized that there are votes they could get if their platform and candidates were closer to those of psl.
If you don’t like Biden and don’t think trump is the end of the world, psl is objectively a better choice for your future.
If you think trump is the end of the world, what are you doing posting about it online? Go prepare to perform political violence.
I can do both. Yay for political multitasking!
Well you shouldn’t support Trump. He’s a terrible candidate, a racist and fraud, and did a terrible job last time.
I agree. Which is why I don’t support Trump.
Why do you support Trump?
Why is your reading comprehension poor?
Just because we dislike Biden doesn’t mean we support Trump
You:
I can do both
Seems like my reading comprehension is just fine, thanks.
So why do you support Trump?
It’s called agreeing with the OP. I can dislike Biden AND not support Trump. They are not mutually exclusive.
All politicians are professional liars anyways.
Blue liar or red liar.
Giant douche or Turd Sandwich
