is the man or bear thing rhetorically or optically the perfect feminist meme that is beyond criticism? no.
but is it leaps and bounds better at getting men to understand the material consequences of patriarchy on the physical and emotional health of women than that stupid “kill all men” meme from last decade? definitely.
The image you posted has a good sentiment, and I don’t think it’s effective as a meme itself. What will make it stick in the viewer’s mind? To me it doesn’t have a joke and doesn’t make enough sense to convey a new insight.
You’re right, feminism is for everyone. How does the introduction of Bell Hooks explain that or prove it to the reader? Who is the new character in the bottom right corner? Their instant agreement with Bell doesn’t make sense given the preceding text.
ur confused and thats my fault sorry. by “this meme” i was referring to the man vs bear thing. the body text is about the popular in-joke going around.
First just want to reinforce I’m only commenting in the spirit of “how could this thought be propagated more effectively” and hope that comes across.
But no, I think I understood the general premise. The image you’re posting is referring to the trend of women being given a hypothetical situation where they can choose to encounter a bear or a man in the woods, right? And some men are angry that any woman would choose a bear over a man.
I took the image you posted to be an attempt to convey that it’s not unreasonable for women to do so, and also introduce people to the thought that patriarchy is harmful to both men and women. What about something like this image?
I tried to work in:
- A reference to the man/bear debate
- That men feel justified in telling women their opinion about it is wrong
- That men are harmed by patriarchy
- And at the same time take masculinity as their identity and view any systemic criticism as a personal attack
- A joke about how men’s own reactions to the original thought experiment can be a good illustration why women choose the bear
Also I have to say one thing that was effective about the original post is at least for me I looked up Bell Hooks and read a little. The image I made doesn’t work in a reference to her, not sure how to do that effectively. I also think there could easily be other memes dedicated to illustrating how men are harmed by the patriarchy. It’s a complicated subject so showing it clearly would be a service.
thank you for sharing. i feel like you might not be aware of the already established format that i am using here. yours is good too and i encourage you to post it but i do find my post to be quite effective as it uses a scheme that is already familiar to most viewers.
Ah you’re right, I’ve seen the format before but didn’t pick up that’s what you were going for.
Lol the meme is supposed to encourage you to Google those people. Bell Hooks is an excellent scholarly source on how patriarchy negatively impacts men.
How you gonna come in here and critique a meme because you don’t feel like googling tho lol.
They’re critiquing the structure more than the content
I was discussing this whole “safer with a bear” thing with my wife earlier, and she agreed that it was more about the bear will almost always just fuck off and leave you alone. Imo, the problem is the lack of social (third) spaces in the West, particularly anglo-North America. The only places left where you can encounter a potential romantic partner are in their home or in a place of business, and both are generally unacceptable for romantic solicitation. We’ve even managed to largely flush the Internet as a meaningful third space. So, folks are left with the choice of committing a social faux pas or being lonely, which is kind of a shit choice.
If we brought back third spaces whose sole purpose was socializing and community-building, we’d probably see stuff like the “safer with bear” sentiment disappate.
valid insight, maybe not the full picture, but still valid.
important to know that the vast majority of perpetrators of sexual violence are acquaintances of the victim, and aren’t strangers. so third spaces might certainly help, but don’t address the primary issue.
I would add though, that (a) those statistics do exclude non-violent sexual harassment (which is more likely from strangers), and (b) that sexual violence is massively underreported, especially when the perpetrator is unknown, since the chances of anything being able to be done about it are extremely low
I would agree but stipulate, unpaid third places. Third places still exist, they’re just all monetized. Hang out at the movie theater, gotta buy a ticket, hang out at a concert, gotta buy a ticket, hang out anywhere around town, you’re loitering and there’s nothing really there, hang out at the mall, everyone’s trying to sell you stuff and there’s only just stuff to buy. There’s maybe the park and the library left, which aren’t exactly the most hot of spots.
Agreed. We’ve built a society where you’re largely only allowed to exist in public as a consumer.
The only places left where you can encounter a potential romantic partner are in their home or in a place of business, and both are generally unacceptable for romantic solicitation. We’ve even managed to largely flush the Internet as a meaningful third space. So, folks are left with the choice of committing a social faux pas or being lonely, which is kind of a shit choice.
Combine this with the expectation that one sex is expected to do nearly all such soliciting.
I actually find it amusing that Bumble recently announced that they are no longer going to require women to make the first move because many find having to do so a burden. It’s something of an intractable problem - women don’t want the burden of having to do the approaching and potentially facing rejection but also don’t want to be approached by men they aren’t interested in (and tend to have much lower tolerances regarding the behavior of said men - a lot of behaviors that are “flirting” when done by a man they’re interested in are seen as something else entirely when done by the wrong man).
Then from the other direction you have men for who it’s largely a numbers game - many men don’t put much effort into the messages they send out on online dating services because the response rate is so low. If a large majority of your messages get no reply, it’s less psychologically painful to think about the sheer number of times you’ve been considered not worth the effort to bother turning down if you aren’t investing as much into each attempt, and if you aren’t investing much into each attempt then you can make a lot more attempts for the same time investment. Response rates are low enough and the difference in odds of success between low effort and high effort messages small enough that it impacts the entire thing pretty heavily.
I’m so glad to see this posted. The whole meme of bear vs man made me feel at odds and while I saw what the point was that it tried to raise it still didn’t really do a great job to me. After a lot of thinking about it and discussing it in other threads I finally understood what I feel is the issue. While the answer given by most (if not all) women is shocking and shows the feeling of uncertainty and unsafeness the question is framed in such a way that it creates division and sexism. The problem is not what women are answering, the issue is that it puts men on the other side without any more thought. It divides us into women vs either men or bears. I’m not a woman, I’m not a bear, and I don’t want to be a man seen as a danger. I understand the issue and I want to be part of the solution and create a safer world for everyone.
This whole topic wouldn’t have made me see the problem if it wasn’t for the effect that other ways to raise awareness have had in the past. For me the greatest method to raise awareness was the #metoo movement. That’s when I could see the issue and what kind of effect it has. It was a movement that didn’t automatically make me feel excluded, it was a movement that raised awareness of the victims, but it didn’t have to be only women, also men that had been victims could raise it if they felt empowered by it. It was horrifying seeing the spread of it, and then there must be all the ones that didn’t say anything. That’s a movement I can get behind, that’s the way to raise awareness. Since then I try to be more aware of the kind of behavior that creates those feelings of unsafeness for women and if I would ever notice something done by others I’d try to step up. The whole man vs bear is terrible at doing the same.
Billionaires are laughing in their private jets while people bicker over stupid memes about gender.
Funny, but don’t ever forget the #MeToo movement.
Awareness and advocacy may seem pointless until it precipitates in holding the oppressors accountable. Next time, hopefully, it will be even more significant.
Funny, but don’t forget the Occupy Wall Street movement.
The ruling class will stop at nothing to maintain their grip on power.
Canceling a few actors, and Harvey Weinstein, has had no beneficial systemic effect on society or women.
A Walmart clerk who is sexually harassed by her supervisor is in no better position today than she was prior to MeToo
But a lot of rich white women got to receive social media attention from it. So that’s nice.
Billionaires are laughing in their private jets
I think the sad thing is that they generally tend to be pretty unhappy from what I’ve seen
Reading bell hooks back in the day made me interested in understanding feminism. Things like the bear makes me go do other things and care less.
easy solution is to read bell hooks today too :)
You know, that’s a good idea.
Things like the bear makes me go do other things and care less.
Isn’t that sort of the joke? Had the original social impulse to “I’d rather meet a bear in the woods than a man” been to just shrug and walk away, virtually nobody here would have known the comment was made.
Sadly, more people want to engage with random internet rage-bait and pseudo-sociology than a fact-based, logically laid out research and policy report.
I guess. It invoked some emotion for sure, something that research and policies usually don’t. For me, I still don’t know what to do differently. I’ve heard the statistics and it’s scary and sad. I want women to be safe and equal and all that. But what’s the plan here, which path leads to a different world? Does it help if I just sit around and feel bad about myself? I don’t think so. It just alienates me from half of the human population. But what actually helps? The message I receive is mostly just “feel bad about yourself.”
But what’s the plan here, which path leads to a different world?
It helps when people aren’t chronically alienated from one another. Growing up in a big family or in a neighborhood where you’ve got friends all along the block helps people to get to know and empathize with one another at an early age. You get to move through your moody adolescent phase surrounded by peers and see the real social consequences of being an asshole up front, rather than having anonymous channels through which you can vent your worst impulses without consequence.
But what actually helps?
Real actual socializing with other human beings. Empathy is just another kind of muscle. You gotta use it if you want to do any kind of heavy lifting. Otherwise, the occasional emotional contact with another person feels impossibly hard.
But what’s the plan here, which path leads to a different world?
Do you really think someone’s going to have the answer to a question like that from a bear vs man meme lemmy thread?
One of the things I find so irritating about social media is that people pretend like we can use it to solve all of the world’s issues when in obvious reality if you think about it for a moment it’s just a time wasting spot for people to go chatter about things (and apparently get big angry a lot of the time).
Social media is a snake eating its own tail, or perhaps more accurately, a thing that disappears up its own butthole.
It’s similar to how Hollywood perceives itself at awards shows as being the center of the universe. Changing the world into a better one isn’t making a movie that blows peoples’ minds, having a music festival, and it (to an even lesser extent) isn’t writing up a catchy Lemmy / Mastodon / Facebook / Xitter / Blog post.
These things can be inspiring. Creativity is fun, and media can feel cathartic to the audience…but ultimately media in and of itself tends to change very little.
is it rhetorically or optically the perfect feminist meme that is beyond criticism? no.
Honestly, I think the biggest problem with the argument is men have been having very serious discussions for probably millenia about what animals they could and could not beat in a fight. And it is implicitly known that the guy who comes in saying he could beat a bear is way up his own ass. Now here comes a meme appearing to imply that men could beat a bear in a fight, and the urge to correct is strong.
I understand and agree with the sentiment, but I also want you to know you can’t beat a bear in a fight, but will gladly discuss what animals you might win against.
What about a Cheetah?
It is implicitly known that the guy who comes in saying he could beat a bear is way up his own ass.
This is good insight into the cultural context that led into this.
I think it varies wildly individual to individual. For example, some of my personal experience/knowledge is that while I can never beat a bear, bears may be discouraged, scared, and shouted down from attacking with proper preparation and training - a luxury that women do not have against men.
Another nuance I saw someone mention is that if I get attacked by a bear, at least I’m fucking dead and I don’t have to live to deal with the psychosocial horror of having to convince a cop, judge or jury, friends or family that I wasn’t “asking for it,” underscoring the damage that a victim-blaming culture has on women.
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Just in case someone else didn’t explain (or i’m the one that missed something) this meme is actually referencing the recent internet hubbub of: women were asked if they were hiking alone, would they rather run into a strange man or a bear, and many women picked the bear.
It’s not about fighting, though. It’s actually implied that a bear would either be less agressive, or at least: less cruel.
Which is why framing the concept in a context that is parallel to one already very familiar to men (what animal is a bigger threat) has caused such misunderstanding.
I think a man would be more likely to recognise a woman as a woman.
A bear doesn’t care. The bear sees the woman as a human, and acts accordingly.So yeh, the bear would be more predictable.
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bears don’t rape and kidnap women. People - overwhelmingly men - do.
I don’t understand at all where fighting came into this. Am a man.
Omg you re the first I see that understand that its more the urge to correct than an politic or genre idea. Thx also I could win against a cheetah I think . can I use stone or stick?
Yeah, but Cheetahs can be way bigger than you expect, up to 160 pounds. I think if it can build up enough speed and has the chance to pounce you’re gonna have the wind knocked out of you before you can do much.
Now here comes a meme appearing to imply that men could beat a bear in a fight, and the urge to correct is strong.
?!
you have missed the point completely.
And I believe you missed the words “appearing to imply” and my point completely.
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…
Sure.
The original meme is about women feeling they are less threatened by a bear than a strange man, the bear might leave them alone or not be aggressive where a man would be more likely to. That men can be a threat in different ways.
Separately men very often discuss what animals they could beat in a fight. This results in a misunderstanding/disconnect between “who would you feel less threatened by” and “who would win in a fight”, which I agree is not what the original meme of women “choosing the bear” is about, but it is a very similar dynamic that results in men explaining that you won’t win a fight against a bear. Which, again, is not the point of the original meme indicating a feeling that a bear might be less likely to harm or threaten you, which is why it results in people talking past each other. (Kind of like right now…)
so you just conflated two random subjects because…?
Men don’t ‘very often discuss’ what animals they can fight. get over yourself.
“very often” is hyperbole, but if you’ve never had/heard of that discussion I would be surprised. But I don’t think “men are misunderstanding the question” is a crazy take.
“who would win in a fight” and “who would you feel more threatened by” are by no means two “random” subjects, they are very closely related in theme and in most situations the answers would be interchangeable. And the conflation of the two closely related topics of conversation was my entire point.
the only context I’ve ever discussed this is a horse sized chicken or 50 chicken sized horses.
the hilarious thing is, it’s not about you, unless you’re the kind of guy who makes women fear for their safety.
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False, Bell Hooks never wore chokers
yeah im so sorry 😞 tried to find a wojack that looks like her but i acknowledge i fell short
Its okay buddy
Heads up, her name is “bell hooks” without caps.
Interesting thought: if you correct someone on the capitalization of her pen name, is that in opposition with the original intent of the stylistic choice she made?
^facts
in a critical situation like this, finding another human at all is probably riskier than any animal.
most animals will just fuck off while humans will remember you and find a way to fuck you for their gain. all that in a smart way that you wont be able to stop with just a pointy stick or something.
If I was lost in the woods, a human would be more likely to have cell phone service or know the way out. And realistically, it’s just going to be some hiker or birder, which from what I’ve seen are generally welcoming groups.
i was thinking more of a survival type situation, but in most cases you are probably right.
most animals will just fuck off while humans will remember you and find a way to fuck you for their gain.
I gotta disagree. In my experience, most humans will also fuck off.
But its a numbers game. We meet a lot of humans and some of them provoke intense experiences that are deeply memorable. However, we almost never meet any bears.
Honestly most humans will be centered at escaping the forest if they don’t know where to go, or guiding you out if they do. That’s it.
I’d choose the bear. A bear would probably leave me alone if i yell at it and make myself look big. A human would probably cry if i did that to them.
edit: also, can i just stay in the forest? Do I have to find a way out?
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most animals will just fuck off while humans will remember you and find a way to fuck you for their gain.
I mean this is mostly not true, though? Without identifying information, like say, being in the forest, it’s pretty easy to lose track of someone if you both live in anything above a small sized town, and then just never see someone again.
Also, you are in a forest. It is expected to see wild animals, it is unexpected to see humans. If you were in a seemingly empty office, would you rather see another person or a fucking bear?
Who draws these wojacks?
The hacker known as 4chan.
Who is this “Fourchan?”
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/wojak
A legit interesting history.
Bottom left might be one of my favourite wojaks yet. I love all the different depictionsof this meme!!
What?
context, sorry
did i stutter or
edit: im literally a selfish dumbass sorry. added context to the body text :)
Or just not actually give the context of the original meme.
OOPS ur right that was shortsighted of me
New thing I thought of, new idea, on top of all the other shit, about like, women vs man vs bear, right. If you choose the man, the chances that the average woman can outrun the average man I think are pretty high. I think the psycho outlier males maybe skew that stat a little bit, but I think on average, the chances are pretty good, and if I remember right, women can even, on average, run for longer than the average man. I dunno about faster, so the initial chase would probably matter more there, but, yeah. On the other hand, you can’t outrun a bear, since they can get up to like 40-50 miles per hour and can pivot and maneuver way better on account of their quadripedaliness.
So I think probably that should be a good factor in the decision making, on top of all the other stuff.
Okay but now that I’ve got you locked in, I think I want to like. The hypothetical, the meme, is interesting, because it’s obviously bait, right? Like it’s obviously just something that’s meant to be divisive but “illustrative”, or something. It’s not really successful at being illustrative and inspiring empathy, and as this meme posts, reading bell hooks would probably be a better maneuver for most men, or just like, engaging with a woman’s experience of the world generally in good faith, or like, treating them like they’re smart fellow human beings instead of just bringing up some counterpoint every five minutes that the chick’s already thought of, and then instead of bringing it up as like a good faith question they bring it up in a way where it’s like primed to treat the woman’s stupid. But I dunno, maybe people just don’t know how to talk, really. Small talk, sure, but real talk, no way.
Uhhh, but what I was saying, the original meme is bait, right? And it’s so obviously bait that it sort of, I think, inspires two separate reactions. One treats the meme seriously because it’s so absurd, right. Usually the male response, right, the idea is that we’ve never really had to think “oh do I take a man on this hike so I can feel more safe, or do I go alone, who can I trust to go along with me”, right, the thought process would be more along the lines of like “who do I take on this hike”. Existing in a male as default state, the idea is maybe that men are going to be less predisposed to gendered thinking because they don’t need to think that way out of self-preservation, or culturally ingrained bias, or whatever. This doesn’t mean they aren’t biased, right, but it’s sort of like, the white dude that’s got a lot of racist notions floating around but then they don’t realize it, it’s implicit. So there’s like, not good faith engagement, but like just total acceptance of the premise as an absurd notion to be toyed around with, right, sort of along the lines of, as I’ve heard another commenter say, along the lines of “what animal could I take in a fight” kind of discussions.
I think then women are maybe more likely to, on the opposite side of what I just said, actually relate more to the premise, treat it less as absurd maybe, or maybe understand more that it’s meant to try to illustrate a point or get at something, and then with their responses they’re going to do the same. Try to use their responses to get at something or illustrate some principle rather than just being like “oh I dunno I could probably take a bear in a fight” level shit. Like no shit that’s not what they’re getting at.
So, I dunno, in conclusion, the meme was primed to be bait from the onset, and, it’s never not going to be bait, and, from the way social media works, the bait engagement is encouraged, the bad faith engagement is encouraged, yadda yadda. I think I will say, to put on my meme criticism hat for a moment, of this meme, this meme either operates on the assumption that someone will google bell hooks, or that someone already knows who she is, so that’s kind of, narrowing the audience to those who already know, and probably don’t need it as much. I’d probably go with like a bell hooks’ book passage or quote which is both productive in itself for people to hear, and can maybe also drive traffic towards a book of hers. Maybe make the talking head quote that passage and then the chad soyjack can pog up on hearing it or be crying or whatever. Also I’d probably replace the “black woman” soyjack with a bell hooks specific soyjack, but that might be too high effort.
Also looked up bell hooks while writing this, didn’t know she was dead as of 3 years ago, RIP to a real one, that sucks.
The initial expression of the poll regarding the bear hypothetical was categorically not intended as bait, but rather a sincere reflection of women’s lived experiences.
The further out from the onset of the trend we get, yes, I agree with being more critical of those using this meme to get a rage reaction. However, while it is not the perfect rhetorical feminist meme, it is crucial to ensure that women are not silenced or even asked to soften their language when they speak out against sexual assault and rape culture.
I mean something can not be intended as bait, but still be bait, you know? It’s the way in which it’s framed in social media, which creates bait out of otherwise well-intentioned conversations and reactions. Strip out context, show someone this side by side with a feed of schlock about say, an ongoing war, a bunch of shitposts, whatever, and it can make it appear trivial by comparison, not worth engaging with, in good faith, you know?
I’d also say, right, like, sort of along the same lines of what I said up top about like, people not being able to have conversations anymore without making each other feel pissed off, right. Without pressing buttons, you know. Part of that communication, part of that speaking up and speaking out, is the back and forth. I think for that back and forth to exist, well, probably social media not being helpful to that is the biggest factor, but that back and forth also has to be like, a conversation. I dunno. Clarifying questions go a long way, or like, “oh what about this”, you know, kinds of things. It integrates people into the conversation more than just like, a big chicago style dump on the chest, or like.
I dunno, have you ever been in those conversations where it’s just someone kind of awkwardly venting for like 30 or 40 minutes, and then everyone else is kind of not engaging with them and is actively avoiding them? That’s sort of like the thing I want to avoid. To be clear that’s mostly the fault of the people actively avoiding or not engaging with it, for whatever trauma. I mean probably that’s better than like asking shitheel questions that cause the venting person to go off more or just get mad, but yeah, still bad to just uhh, remain silent as a response to someone talking to you. Not to say that’s what you’re saying when you’re saying like, make sure women aren’t silenced or, asked to soften their language, right, but, I guess that’s just my accompanying like, stipulation right. That conversations are two way kind of by definition, you know?
I’m also speaking in generalities right now, and yeah the bigger problem in general for sure is just that social media is kind of a context stripping machine that encourages pithy comebacks and imposes character limits and pushes human communication through image macros and other high pressure needle jets the size of a pin that can cut through diamonds.
I mean something can not be intended as bait, but still be bait, you know?
No. What you are doing here is silencing the experiences of women, whether intentional or not. Be so very careful friend. Listen to women, and just move on if you don’t have the emotional bandwidth for it. There is no excuse for tone policing the expression of people who have been violently attacked.
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Lol, you’re ridiculous
All I can do is grin and shake my head when they choose a bear lol
Not all men are ferocious animals. But all bears are ferocious animals.
This is where you should probably pause and listen to the reasoning they are giving. Here is one:
Reasons varied from “The worst the bear will do is kill me,” to “At least I know the bear wants to kill me,” with a general theme seeming to be that whatever tangible threat the bear posed was preferable to the uncertainty of wondering whether or not a random man would assault them.
I understand. The way I’m seeing it is, even if it’s a 50/50 chance, she may be able to fend for herself… a bear? What? 90% chance (bears normally try to stay away from humans until you enter their territory) and she’s definitely not just going to die, but she’s going to be ripped to shreds, not to mention the type of damage a bear’s jaw can do. Easily crush bones.
I mean I get it, in uncivilized civilizations, there’s going to be some really chitty people, and chitty men are far more dangerous. So women are going to fear men in general.
Rape culture means that women who survive SA often have to go through a hellish psychosocial process wherein they must convince cops, judges, juries, friends and family that they were not “asking for it.”
This is not me talking, this is something that has been expressed to me by multiple individuals. That they would rather undergo horrific mutilation by an animal than deal with that process.
I encourage you not to laugh, but to actually self-interrogate what this means. Because so far you have only expressed that you do not, in fact, understand.
You haven’t gotten the idea behind all this, like not at all. You seem to be a good person though so please continue figure things out, we all are.
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Antisexism is for everyone.
Feminism inherently centers on the issues of women, it’s in the name, and anything that it solves for men is collateral.
We need to hear both women and men if we want actual solutions that work for all sides.
Let’s stop this division. It’s time to ditch this “women against the men’s system” in favor of “how can we be good to each other, and what we don’t know of each other’s struggles”
And for now, the popular post considering the men’s perspective was just nuked. Probably for daring to consider the other side of this.
“All sexes matter”
Antisexism is for everyone.
And for now, the popular post considering the men’s perspective was just nuked. Probably for daring to consider the other side of this.
The two genders
How’s that contradictory to you?
I said that antisexism is the actual word for describing the system of fighting discrimination of people of all genders, and we should strive for that.
We should consider male perspective along with the female look at the issue. And the former is intensively shushed.
It’s no use pretending feminism is there to care for men - if anything, women are still the centerpiece of the movement, as they always were, and it’s reflected in the name and values of it.
If you do care for men, however, maybe you should listen to the things men say on the issue, without shutting them up and then saying “oh, we care for you as well”.
“We should listen to both genders”
No problem here.
“We should consider the male perspective”
Sure.
“FeMiNiSm bAd!”
And that’s where you lose it. You’re saying both genders need to be listened to, then rejecting Feminism because it’s women being listened to.
Nope, I didn’t say “feminism bad” either.
I said feminism is about women, not men, and what it gives to men is collateral, not the goal.
Thereby, we need a wider antisexist framework to address issues of both women and men, and to solve issues that are two-sided by nature - gender relations often being the example.
If you want men to “become better”, you have to understand what factors make them “bad”, and how it works in their mindset. And for that, you have to delve into men’s issues. You should also demonstrate willingness to partner and reciprocate with men, and help them fight gender stereotypes, unfair treatment, and other things that women often face too.
Men, on the other hand, should join women in the initiatives that matter, and learn more about the struggle of women.
