This is fucked up, but is this functionally worse than freezing mice and rats for snake food? Would we be more comfortable if he had been freezing lambs or piglets for his snake to eat? Should he have euthanized the snake once it grew too large to live on rats? Snakes are carnivores and eat meat. Puppies are just a really cute and loveable configuration of meat. Puppy mills, COVID lockdowns, and the increase in living expenses have resulted in a crisis of too many pets that need homes. Too many dogs are being bred, and too many dogs are being euthanized.
I’m not in any way condoning snake owners freezing puppies to death. It’s just weird the way we compartmentalize animal abuse so we can ignore the suffering of animals we arbitrarily choose not to care about.
Mice are cute, but dogs communicate trust and love for us so very clearly. Betraying such trust is for monsters.
dogs communicate trust and love for us so very clearly
So do cows. And pigs are smarter than dogs.
The line between food and friend is arbitrary.
Pigs are better problem solvers than dogs, that doesn’t mean they’re carte blanche smarter. Dogs have a level of social intelligence and selected-for ability to interact with humans that no other species does.
Pigs definitely have a social intelligence that at least rivals those of dogs, if it doesn’t surpass it. Just because we keep them in a way that traumatises them from an early age on, doesn’t mean pigs aren’t socially intelligent. Wild boar and the like form highly complex social structures and are quite able to communicate in between one another. The only thing pigs actually express more than dogs is the utter disregard for anything but their own survival when under duress. This however might be explained by the way they reproduce. Pigs are K-Strategists, whereas dogs aren’t.
And cows have a very high emotional intelligence and are also extremely social creatures.
The best piece of literature I’ve seen regarding cow intelligence and social capacity was measured in terms of their ability to bond and empathize with other cows, their ability to bond with humans didn’t come close to that of dogs
Rats form extremely close bonds with their human companions, and anecdotally I have family in Mexico who have told me about their cows that have tried cheering them up when they were sad.
I see what you’re saying, but when we say “smarter” in English and we typically mean problem solving, not social skills.
If you spend some time with lambs, piglets, and calves, you will probably find similar communication.
I’d like to.
I’m not sure about mice but rats can 100 percent do the same as dogs and are smarter than some breeds of dogs.
I used to have some rats, and I agree. Can’t deny the stigma associated though.
This is the answer. We domesticated them. We’re responsible to them. Collectively we owe it to them not to cause them undue harm.
Were they frozen to death, or frozen after death? It really does make a difference.
Exactly. If he was humanely euthanizing them and then freezing them for snake food then there really isn’t anything that wrong here. I know most people would prefer that the meat of choice not be puppies but that’s just how western society views dogs. But societal views aside it’s no different than using piglets which are what a lot of large snake owners use.
Pinkies are a thing for feeding snakes already. Basically baby hamsters. These snakes must have been massive if they needed puppies.
So hamsters are okay, but puppies aren’t? As @Fosheze alluded to, it has to do more with the culture that you were raised in than it has to do with any universal standard of morality.
A quick Google search reveals that snakes can eat prey that is the diameter of the widest part of the snake. Some snakes, such as large constrictors, can and will eat a dog. Snakes are carnivores and need to eat a varied diet of prey, so it comes as no surprise that a dog could be a valid option.
Of course, as with everything, it gets more complicated than that. For instance, intent, food viability, local laws and regulations, how the prey was prepared, etc.
I’m with you bud don’t worry, I don’t have issues with puppy’s being used. I’m a rodent lover and I had 10 hamster up until earlier this year when they all started passing away from old age and I understand it’s the cycle of life and snakes have to eat too. I have no problem with any of this as long as it wasn’t done overly gruesome for the animals being eaten. It’s the cycle of life, we’re part of it too.
Yup, that’s my thought. And I’m one of those crazy dog lovers that would kick the shit out of someone for hurting a dog without a damn good reason. I’d have died for any of my dogs.
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Every other animal is fair game though right?
Depends. What kind of argument are you trying to start?
No animal is any more sacred than another for food.
No animal is any more sacred than another when it comes to abuse, which is what I was talking about. This thread was about dogs in specific, and I am one of those crazy dog people that would choose them over most humans, hence my willingness to fuck someone up over that.
Truth is, though? I’d fuck someone up over most animals. I don’t really like people as a whole, despite being a friendly person irl. Individuals can be great, people suck, if you catch the distinction.
But there’s a line between abuse and necessity. I’ve killed animals before, for food and in defense of myself or others. Have no problem doing so again, if the need arises. But when hunting or fishing, any kills are done with minimum possible speed. It isn’t about the death itself, it’s about how you treat living things. It’s why I’m against industrial farming, and source our meat locally from small farms, or “hobby” farms. If the critters aren’t being treated bad, I have no issue with farming livestock.
But, I’m lucky enough to live somewhere that local farms actually exist, so I recognize that privilege and don’t bash anyone that takes their meat as they can.
Now, there’s my basic stance.
Since you were probably looking to start an argument, if you dislike any of that, you can go fuck yourself. If I’m wrong and you were asking as a way to connect with another person and have a civil, friendly conversation about the boundaries of what constitutes ethical animal treatment, then don’t go fuck yourself, but be aware that the subject gets old fast online, and as soon as you start bullshit, I’m just blocking and moving on with my day.
In that regard, I recognize that people can have contradictory emotional connections to a given type of animal that they don’t to other animals. I am fine with that in others, and I’m fine with that in myself when it arises, though my baseline for what animals are and aren’t okay to eat or feed to other animals is essentially about the method of death rather than the animal itself. Some animals taken as food for other animals are never killed quickly and in as peaceful a way as possible, and that bothers me.
I grew up with family that are farmers. I have cousins that still run family farms, including dairy and meat. At that scale, the animals are able to be treated well. Plenty of room to move, no hitting or other violence done to them, good feed, and available veterinary care as needed. They die without human action sometimes, and other than the dairy cows, they end up killed eventually. They’re killed quickly, and individually (rather than in large groups which is stressful as the process goes on). I am fine with that.
Everything dies. Even the self regenerating jellyfish and tardigrades, they can die, and will die eventually. What happens to a corpse is meaningless. It’s going to feed something, somewhere. I don’t care if what it feeds is humans, or other animals instead of bacteria, fungi, and insects.
I will, however, protect my animals by any means available. And I have a soft spot for dogs that means I’ll go to harsher methods sooner, even when they aren’t mine. More than any other animal, they are our partners. We owe them our best. Is my proclivity to violence as an early option regarding dogs compared to other critters imbalanced? Sure. Don’t care. I’m fine with that in others, and myself; we are allowed to have soft spots and inconsistency.
Any other questions are fine, but I’ll say again that if you’re looking to be a dick, you’ll be wasting your time, and I’m who decides that you’re being a dick to me.
Nothing is sacred and life is meaningless so you being however you want is just fine, got it. Don’t worry, the amount you replied tells me how triggered you were.
Is that crime specific to puppies or in theory they woukd have got into trouble if they froze another animal like a rat or mouse or rabbit ?
Frozen rodents are already a thing for snake food. They feed rats to snakes no problem and rats really intelligent creatures.
The choice of puppies is weird but a snakes gotta eat and you can’t exactly just feed them a head of lettuce. Is puppies really that much worse than piglets or rabbits?
Once a snake gets to a certain size rats won’t be enough anymore. At that size there aren’t any good mass market options so those snake owners will usually take what they can get. I knew a guy that bred reticulated pythons and he wound up having a deal with a pig farm where they would sell him any piglets that happened to die early for dirt cheap (because what else where they going to do with them). But if you don’t luck into an arrangement like that what do you do? If you have an ample supply of unwanted puppies I guess it would make sense to use puppies. As awful it sounds to western sensibilities, dogs are livestock in other parts of the world.
Maybe don’t own an animal you’re not prepared to take care of?
He was taking care of it. Just not with meat that most westerners like thinking of as meat.
Look at a bag of frozen baby mice or rats. It’s just as sad as puppies.
*horrible story about literal puppies*
Dorks on Lemmy: Ok, but hear me out
Care to explain how this is any worse than what we already do with cows or pigs without invoking cuteness? What about what we do to rats which are just as socially/emotionally intelligent as dogs (and compared to many breeds more so)?
I really, genuinely, fully don’t think you can.
Aside from dlpkl’s loose emotionally driven argument, I personally believe doing it to any animal is just sad and terrible. On the contrary, I do realize the tough world we live in, and these pets need meat to eat. I rather hope this arrest is over the fact that it is possible these puppies could not be put to death in a humane manner. Also, I wish there are more regulations on humane treatment of animals. Even humans are not always treated humanely. I wouldn’t ever want human babies to be used for animal food either, so it’s always a moving line, you know, because that’s what a complex subject like this brings.
I really, genuinely, fully don’t think you’d care to listen. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize that the social emotional capacity that dogs have far exceeds any other domestic animal.
I’ve never understood why some people think emotional and human-based social capacity are the metrics by which we should value an animal’s life. I would think that their ability to feel pain, fear and sadness would be a better way to judge whether it’s ok to inflict harm, especially unnecessarily, on another species. Can you help me understand your reasoning?
We can measure an animal’s ability to feel pain, but fear and sadness are emotions, the exact thing that I’m talking about.
You do know that Rats act very similar to a miniature dog yeah? They very much have an ability to express emotions similar to dogs. While I understand where you’re coming from, and personally could never condone the actions done above, Its hard to deny that in some cultures Dogs don’t have that connection that we value.
Ah I think I see what you’re getting at. I thought you were saying it’s a dog’s unique ability to convey emotions specifically to humans by mirroring our behavior that made them more valuable than other animals.
It sounds like you’re saying they have emotions that other animals do not.
While it’s true we can’t measure emotional intensity in animals, we can certainly observe their behavior and see that they will cower, flee or scream to indicate fear, and call out or wail to indicate sadness (something that has been observed in dairy cows separated from their calfs). I think anyone who’s spent time around these animals would agree that they certainly have the capacity to feel these emotions, and I don’t see why that’s any different from dogs.
I do care to listen. Listening is what made me realize how untrue what you’re saying is. Sure they have a high emotional capacity but do you honestly think a chihuahua is more emotionally intelligent than a cow? Or a rat? To me it seems like you don’t fully understand how smart (and not just in problem solving) the animals we eat are.
Why do you find it so incredulous to believe that dogs are actually that much more emotionally intelligent than cows and rats? Sure, cows and rats and pigs and horses can show emotional intelligence, but to believe it’s close to that of dogs is pretty shortsighted.
So you think a chihuahua is more emotionally intelligent than a rat?
Not every dog breed is the same and I bet if we treated cows/pigs/rats the way we do dogs they would be way more bonded to humans than they already are in their fucked-up breed to kill situations.
If you think the situation in the OP post is fucked but wouldn’t bat an eye if the same was done to another animal then Idk what to tell you. It’s all fucked. We essentially torture creatures that feel love, happiness, sadness, that feel it all, just so we can overproduce and toss out what isn’t sold (while also making sure people stay hungry). You only think it’s different because they share a “special” (read:manufactured) bond with humans. Idgaf about them caring for humans more. I give a fuck about their ability to feel period. Dogs don’t feel more love than cows. Dogs feel more love towards humans
I do, and if you don’t think that chihuahuas are capable of being more emotionally intelligent than a rat then you haven’t spent much time around them. A family member of mine had one growing up, and while it was a chatty little shit it was also incredibly emotional.
I agree that there are absolutely differences amongst breeds and that would probably extend to other species as well. I don’t agree with eating animals or raising them to kill them, especially in the ways we do.
I don’t understand what you mean by manufactured, it’s a result of the co-evolution between our two species that’s occured for thousands of years, and by all means natural. I don’t agree that cows can feel more or equally to dogs, I still think that dogs are a more emotional animal and deserve person status. I want to, but I can’t say the same about other domesticated species, including cats. Some other animals that I would consider affording such rights to would be primates, cetaceans, elephants, and octopuses. I haven’t seen the evidence that rats and cows are at that level.
then you haven’t spent much time around them
I would argue the same to you about rats and cows. My cousin had a chihuahua, I never said they weren’t emotional.
We specifically bread dogs to be the way they are. They didn’t just evolve along side us, we chose the wolves that were less aggressive and specifically bread them, breeding out the traits we found undesirable over the years and breeding in the mutations we liked. We never did that with any other animal except to make them more dense for eating. That’s what I mean by manufactured, humans (through an extraordinary long amount of time) created the dogs we have now. It’s not like it just happened out of nowhere, we made it happen (I’d actually argue our bond with cats is more natural in that sense).
never ask a meat eater what the difference between killing dogs and pigs is
One is delicious and has a lot of meat, the other doesn’t and is very fucking expensive in comparison.
That’s about the gist of it.
Anything else?
Never ask a vegan why we can’t use wool products.
the wool industry is exploitative, as is the farming of all animals
Exploitation aside, what’s your alternative?
See even if we actually magically got control of the wool industry so we knew with 100% certainty there was zero exploitation anywhere and producing a lot of wool wouldn’t be the priority anymore, and profits weren’t chased, but just the best care we can provide for sheep. Like the absolute best possible.
In that case, the sheep still have to be sheared, which produces wool. Why shouldn’t that wool — essentially a waste product at that time — be utilised by someone?
Or are you suggesting the sheep aren’t sheared? Because that’s very unhealthy for them in the long term, because it’s an animal that’s evolved to rely on humans shearing them. They literally wouldn’t properly survive, they’d become over entangled with wool and start having all sorts of health problems.
That is animal cruelty, to inflict something like that on purpose. Then the only alternative left is exterminating every sheep in the world.
That or there will be some wool that is completely moral to use.
One can oppose exploitative practices and still use wool. I have several wool items, and they last years and years, despite me getting them from second hand stores. I also have a leather jacket, which was originally made in the 70’s.
Someone who buys cheaply made clothing from some Asian sweat shops is definitely contributing more to the suffering of sentient being than I.
Wool isn’t immoral, exploitative practices are. Eating meat isn’t bad, exploitative farming is.
My brother hunts deer (as a part of a hunter’s association who function as the local nature conservationists essentially by taking care of the populace) and I have absolutely no moral qualms eating the meat from him. I don’t like buying industrially farmed meat, it’s just not ethical.
My point is vegans often take so absolute positions that they are literally impossible to defend without revealing the lack of logic in the absolutist positions.
