China, France, Russia, the UK and the US said that a nuclear war "cannot be won and must never be fought," quoting Ronald Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev at what became the zenith of the nuclear arms race.
Gorbachev oversaw the destruction of USSR that was one of the greatest humanitarian disasters in history.
I don’t think I could reasonably dispute that it was a great humanitarian disaster. Or that Gorbachev was in charge at the time.
How was he responsible? Was he only responsible in a “well, he didn’t prevent it” sort of way? I’ve considered that a valid criticism of politicians I myself support… if you’re in office when it happens, it really is your fault. Sort of.
If so with Gorbachev, I’ll just leave it there and I guess I agree for as much as that’s worth.
Or is it more? Does he have more culpability even than that?
Gorbachev actively worked to undermine the system. He was responsible for the push for things like glasnost and perestroyka. He fostered the start of privatization which was ultimately what led to the disaster. He was an active driving force in creating that disaster.
Forgive me, it’s been a long time since the 1980s. Isn’t “glasnost” something like “freedom to criticize”? For that matter, wasn’t perestroyka “we don’t want to keep threatening mutual nuclear annihilation”?
How are those things bad?
The privatization I at least get, others have criticized it in various places and times before. Or is there some causal link I’m not seeing, where those things led to or caused the privatization?
Things aren’t always what they sound. Glasnost basically allowed private outlets to start pumping pro capitalist propaganda, and perestroyka paved the path towards privatization. None of this had anything to do with preventing nuclear annihilation. This is a pretty good discussion of what happened under Gorbachev.
Glasnost basically allowed private outlets to start pumping pro capitalist propaganda
Freedom of speech does allow assholes and idiots to make false claims, even to tell dangerous lies… something we’ve been reminded of just recently. But on what grounds should a government disallow propaganda, pro-capitalist or any other type?
Even if regrettable events result, is that not the right thing to do?
I will read more, I can’t really remember what perestroyka was supposed to mean… I would have been 11 or 12 at the time. In the literal sense, I think it was something like “thawing” as in the cold war itself, but I don’t really see the connection to privatization at least with what little I know of it.
On the grounds that certain speech is harmful to society. The reality is that no country has absolute freedom of speech. Calls for violence are illegal in most places, Germany bans glorification of fascism, and so on.
So, it’s not a binary question of whether freedom of speech is allowed or not, but rather what the right balance is. I don’t know on what basis westerners assume that they got this balance fundamentally right while everyone else got it wrong.
Perestroyka literally translates are restructuring. And the connection to privatization is that perestroyka was used to popularize the idea of shifting away from a purely socialist economy.
The reality is that no country has absolute freedom of speech.
I reside in one. Even state secrets… prior restraint orders get thrown out of court on appeal.
Calls for violence are illegal
Yes, but the speech is incidental to the crime there.
Germany bans glorification of fascism
They certainly do. And look where it’s got them. For 70 years they’ve had jackasses mooning for those symbols and words, just for the taboo appeal. The trouble being that these cosplayers soon morph into actual neo-nazis.
So, it’s not a binary question of whether freedom of speech is allowed or not, but rather what the right balance is.
Philosophically, it really is a binary thing. If you’re mulling over the “what’s the balance”… you no longer have free speech. You’re just trying to decide if you’ve missed any categories of disallowed speech with the implication that you’re only allowing that speech which you like. And that’s not “free speech” at all. No humans in any era or any country have ever needed freedom of speech to protect speech which those in authority already agree with.
I reside in one. Even state secrets… prior restraint orders get thrown out of court on appeal.
You don’t, your country has limits on acceptable speech just like every other.
Yes, but the speech is incidental to the crime there.
It’s not incidental at all. There are things you’re not allowed to say legally.
They certainly do. And look where it’s got them. For 70 years they’ve had jackasses mooning for those symbols and words, just for the taboo appeal. The trouble being that these cosplayers soon morph into actual neo-nazis.
Certainly, better than where US got itself into right now.
Philosophically, it really is a binary thing. If you’re mulling over the “what’s the balance”… you no longer have free speech.
Nobody has absolute free speech, nor is there any indication that this is a desirable thing to have.
I don’t think I could reasonably dispute that it was a great humanitarian disaster. Or that Gorbachev was in charge at the time.
How was he responsible? Was he only responsible in a “well, he didn’t prevent it” sort of way? I’ve considered that a valid criticism of politicians I myself support… if you’re in office when it happens, it really is your fault. Sort of.
If so with Gorbachev, I’ll just leave it there and I guess I agree for as much as that’s worth.
Or is it more? Does he have more culpability even than that?
Gorbachev actively worked to undermine the system. He was responsible for the push for things like glasnost and perestroyka. He fostered the start of privatization which was ultimately what led to the disaster. He was an active driving force in creating that disaster.
Forgive me, it’s been a long time since the 1980s. Isn’t “glasnost” something like “freedom to criticize”? For that matter, wasn’t perestroyka “we don’t want to keep threatening mutual nuclear annihilation”?
How are those things bad?
The privatization I at least get, others have criticized it in various places and times before. Or is there some causal link I’m not seeing, where those things led to or caused the privatization?
Things aren’t always what they sound. Glasnost basically allowed private outlets to start pumping pro capitalist propaganda, and perestroyka paved the path towards privatization. None of this had anything to do with preventing nuclear annihilation. This is a pretty good discussion of what happened under Gorbachev.
Freedom of speech does allow assholes and idiots to make false claims, even to tell dangerous lies… something we’ve been reminded of just recently. But on what grounds should a government disallow propaganda, pro-capitalist or any other type?
Even if regrettable events result, is that not the right thing to do?
I will read more, I can’t really remember what perestroyka was supposed to mean… I would have been 11 or 12 at the time. In the literal sense, I think it was something like “thawing” as in the cold war itself, but I don’t really see the connection to privatization at least with what little I know of it.
On the grounds that certain speech is harmful to society. The reality is that no country has absolute freedom of speech. Calls for violence are illegal in most places, Germany bans glorification of fascism, and so on.
So, it’s not a binary question of whether freedom of speech is allowed or not, but rather what the right balance is. I don’t know on what basis westerners assume that they got this balance fundamentally right while everyone else got it wrong.
Perestroyka literally translates are restructuring. And the connection to privatization is that perestroyka was used to popularize the idea of shifting away from a purely socialist economy.
I reside in one. Even state secrets… prior restraint orders get thrown out of court on appeal.
Yes, but the speech is incidental to the crime there.
They certainly do. And look where it’s got them. For 70 years they’ve had jackasses mooning for those symbols and words, just for the taboo appeal. The trouble being that these cosplayers soon morph into actual neo-nazis.
Philosophically, it really is a binary thing. If you’re mulling over the “what’s the balance”… you no longer have free speech. You’re just trying to decide if you’ve missed any categories of disallowed speech with the implication that you’re only allowing that speech which you like. And that’s not “free speech” at all. No humans in any era or any country have ever needed freedom of speech to protect speech which those in authority already agree with.
You don’t, your country has limits on acceptable speech just like every other.
It’s not incidental at all. There are things you’re not allowed to say legally.
Certainly, better than where US got itself into right now.
Nobody has absolute free speech, nor is there any indication that this is a desirable thing to have.
I’m not entirely sure what you think those limits are. What is it that you think I can’t say without risk of criminal sanction?
Where is that supposed to be?
So you aren’t free to speak what you think‽
I think you’re have the causality the wrong way around here.