As a lifelong democrat, I find this to be very dangerous rhetoric. It sounds tonedeaf. Regardless of the candidate, being critical of politicians is a cornerstone of democracy.
I understand it’s important to be a united front, but the need to seemingly bring dissenting voices into line is not a good way to do it. We cannot force people to say we have a perfect candidate for the sake of avoiding discussion.
Edit: a word
We cannot force people to say we have a perfect candidate for the sake of avoiding discussion.
They seem to believe if something isn’t discussed, the other side won’t notice and / or discuss it either. That’s delusional.
I disagree that’s what’s happening here. He’s saying that you can be disappointed with Biden all you want, but not voting for him means we get trump and Project 2025 and fascism.
I don’t know a single person that is stoked on Biden, but he’s all we have right now. And we cannot let Trump get a second term.
Unfortunately, that’s not what Fetterman is saying.
Fetterman noted during an interview an uptick in Democrats who have become more critical of Biden lately, and said it’s only helping former President Trump.
“I don’t understand why,” Fetterman said, speaking on “Morning Joe” on MSNBC. “I don’t know what’s in it for you to do that whether you’re just chasing clout or you want to make it in the news or anything like that. But if you’re not willing to just support the president now and say these kinds of things, you might as well just get your MAGA hat, because you now are helping Trump with this.”
He’s addressing other Democratic politicians, whom would probably be one of the last groups to not vote for Biden. He seems to think that Biden would fare better in November if Dems outright refuse to acknowledge the realities of unprecedented homelessness, Israeli war money, or being 81 years old. (Because forcing people to look to Republicans for a dissenting opinion on these subjects is a great idea.)
You should vote for Biden if you don’t want Trump, obviously. And vote for Fetterman over whomever if you don’t want whomever. But either Fetterman severely misspoke here, or his opinion goes way beyond that, and I can’t help but lose a lot of respect I had for him.
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This is buying into the Republican way of thinking, which is that you criticize someone’s performance for any shortcoming you feel. A progressive stance is to elevate other people (There is more than one person in Government) who are doing things correctly without tearing down the current leader. It s the difference between a collaborative government and a competitive one. Within a (generally speaking) unified political block which values diversity of opinions, a collaborative approach is much more productive than a competitive one.
The strength of a movement is in the sum of the effort.
Oh, I totally agree everyone needs to vote for Biden based on how the system currently works. But what I disagree with is the insinuation that anyone disagreeing with Biden needs a MAGA hat. That’s tonedeaf and bad for the party.
It’s pretty much the party’s only message anymore. Just shut up and be happy with the genocide that party leadership has decided that you must love.
I don’t think we have enough nuance in our politics to have that as more than an idyllic dream.
That has been proven time and again to not work. You can’t take the high road and expect to win.
Win what? Ultimately no one wins if we can’t discuss areas for improvement even within one’s own party.
Elections.
Right, but winning an election where your own party already required you to shut up about anything where you disagree – doesn’t seem like a win?
I think there’s this idea that if we keep the Dems in power, then we’ll hit a point where we can return to discussion and fix issues within the party. But that’s a false idea. There will always be an opponent, and the idea that we should all fall in line just to avoid fascism is, well, misguided at best – because it’s also fascism. We’re already setting a precedent within the party to avoid dissidence. That’s wild.
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With first past the post voting, a “win” is very simply avoiding the biggest loss.
Push and scream and lobby as much as you like, but at the end of the day, Biden only needs to be marginally less psychotic than Trump for him to be the preferred candidate.
The other side will fall in line behind Trump. So what choice is there?
Try criticizing Biden openly here or on Reddit. This is the party sentiment right now, open criticism is viewed as being equal to supporting Trump. It’s nutty.
I don’t think that’s true, there’s plenty of disagreement over Biden policies. It’s when people try to play the both sides card, lumping Biden and Trump as both being senile or blaming the situation in Palestine on Biden that gets people riled up especially when people try to use those arguments to convince people to not vote.
Yeah, that’s one of my fears with this rhetoric. We keep reducing issues to bifurcations which is incredibly dangerous.
It’s news when the democrats say there’s no appropriate time to critique democrats
It should be news when someone calls himself progressive for years and as soon as he gets to congress he starts ranting about how much it pisses him off everyone thinks he’s progressive.
Asshole pulled a Sinema and the most annoying part is everyone defending him because he wears a hoodie.
I hope it’s more due to the fact that he had a stroke rather than he’s doing it intentionally. Either way he has had a complete shift in personality and its disappointing to no end that he’s not who he was when elected.
I’m not worried about Biden’s age mostly because I think this comes from the racist fear that Kamala Harris isn’t capable of running this country.
I think we’re worried about biden’s age less because we’re worried he’ll die in office and more because we’re worried he won’t and will keep running the country as his mind deteriorates beyond the point he should be running a bingo game.
I’m far more confident of Biden surrounding himself with capable stewards, than Trump. So even if the worst happens and he stays alive but loses it like Reagan, he will at least have intelligent, relatively progressive people behind the scenes making the actual decisions.
With sundowning narcissist Trump at the wheel? Buckle the fuck in, because it’s going to be a wild ride. I wouldn’t worry about having to vote at the federal level again, so at least it’ll help with that decision.
I really wish I could joke about this, but if Trump becomes president again, things are going to get very very dark.
For sure, I’m in no way advocating voting for trump I just wish the Democratic Party had ran someone who was even “just ok” instead of just barely better than the serial rapist
And they will in 4 years. This is the time where progressives need to start grooming primary candidates for 2028. Not during the 2024 general. We need some young, viable progressives (who aren’t going to Fetterman as soon as they win) to start campaigning now.
Democrats were never going to give up the incumbent advantage, and I’m legitimately surprised by how the media has been acting like it’s a weird situation. It’s giving people this impression that pulling your current leader (of both the party, and in this case, the county) and running someone else in their place is a viable strategy in US presidential politics.
If you want young, progressive candidates, now is the time to start bringing them to the forefront…
Note: apologies in advance for the biography that nobody will probably read… But I swear it’s related! You could probably skip to the " TL;DR part, but ehhh c’mon
Not to tell my life story, but it relates and ended up typing up more than expected…
I have this very vivid, formative even, memory from 2004 of sitting down with my conservative, Republican, Evangelical Christian parents (basically just “lower taxes and stop abortion” days of conservatism, and the “you can’t read Harry Potter” Christianity) and watching both party’s conventions.
This was to be the first presidential election I was eligible to vote in, and I was taking it seriously. Up until that point I was still just mimicking my parents political (and unfortunately, religious as well) views, so I remember that we were supposed to be happy, etc, when we watched the RNC, and boo/ridicule the DNC. And for the most part, embarrassingly, I did those things.
It was almost like watching WCW. I even remember mimicking my father’s sports-like taunts we made towards the Democratic party when he saw that Zell Miller (some old racist conservative who, I guess never got the memo that the Dixiecrats left the party, and was somehow still a Democrat at the time) was a keynote speaker for the Republicans. I’ll say that again, one of the main speakers at the 2004 Republican National Convention, was a registered Democrat. Imagine that happening now, it would be like Rand Paul speaking at the DNC. Yeah he might openly disagree with the leadership of his party, but he would never do something like that unless he officially left the party. And even then…
“Well it’s over,” I thought. The Democrats really must be as bad as Fox News, and my dad, are saying, if their own party members are giving speeches in support of the other guy. I ended that night still thinking the GOP was clearly the only real option here…
Then a week later or whatever, we watched the DNC (on Fox News). It was a different time, but I do give my parents credit for making sure that we watched both conventions since it was my first time voting and they really wanted to drive home how important it is to be informed. They were not quiet about whom they thought I should vote for, but they wanted it to be clear that voting is deeply personal, and that the decision is ultimately mine to make.
Anyway, we watch the DNC, and for a lot of these speakers, it’s the first time I’ve ever even heard of them. I was aware of Ted Kennedy because my dad used to “joke” about driving a car off a bridge, but had never actually heard him speak and even in his advanced age I remember being a bit like, “now hold on…”. I had always been told that liberals were terrible people, but a lot of the stuff he’s saying (in a silly voice/accent) was actually kind of making sense to me.
That’s when I learned the term “bleeding heart” when my dad used it as a derogatory. And it just didn’t make sense to me… We were an Evangelical Christian home, I had been raised on those exact same values. How is caring for others a thing to ridicule?
Anyway, finally getting to my actual point (if there ever was one). I was watching these speeches, and kind of thinking to myself, “this sort of makes more sense, and aligns more closely to my values that the things I heard at the RNC,” but cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing, and it doesn’t help that we’re watching it on Fox News).
So we keep watching, and next up is some young, unknown state senator from Illinois with a weird sounding name. Barack Obama. And holy shit, I was enthralled the moment this guy opened his mouth. I know hindsight and that everyone says this and all of that, but I KNEW this guy was going to be President some day. He was just in his element, and everyone could tell immediately.
He didn’t single-handedly undo the 10+ years of religious trauma that was keeping me as identifying as conservative, I’m embarrassed to say that I ultimately did not vote for John Kerry that year. But I definitely credit that speech as being one of my first major “wake up calls” that conservative ideology is rotten, and my misunderstanding of a single issue (abortion) was being used to elect awful people
And it was not only based on the quality and content of the speech (which made everything at the RNC look like Four Seasons Landscaping), but based on the fact that this previously completely unknown guy got a keynote (possibly even the keynote spot, I forget) slot at the DNC. You could tell that the party knew what they had with Obama, and within 4 years, he was goddamn President.
(TL:DR of sorts follows despite it just being the end of my comment):
So what I think I’m trying to say, after telling my life story that nobody asked for, and probably won’t read, is that we need to be looking for our “next Obama” (using this simply out of convenience, I don’t want another Obama) now. Like 4 years ago even.
We need to be grooming progressive state senators, community organizers, etc. and we need to get them on the national stage, and into the American consciousness ASAP. This is the time to be doing this for the next election (hopefully we will still have them).
I apologize for this crazy long message nobody asked for lol. I will probably not proof read so sorry if something doesn’t make sense…
It was kind of just coming out of me and may even have helped me process how much of an effect that 2004 DNC Obama speech had on my change/growth as a political person.
Anyway, thanks for coming to my TED talk.
First off, I want to say that I appreciated you telling your story here. I’m going to argue against some points, but I think it was a good comment even if there are points I disagree with.
It’s giving people this impression that pulling your current leader (of both the party, and in this case, the county) and running someone else in their place is a viable strategy in US presidential politics.
No other leader has been this old. And there have been plenty of times where a party’s leader didn’t run for reelection. What’s doomed is a challenge. If Biden had followed the rumor from 2020 and stepped down after a single term, Democrats would probably be in a much better position.
The “incumbent advantage” has led to 3 of the last 7 incumbents losing. It’s not a bulletproof strategy, particularly if the incumber is very unpopular.
I’ll say that again, one of the main speakers at the 2004 Republican National Convention, was a registered Democrat. Imagine that happening now, it would be like Rand Paul speaking at the DNC.
Nah, everyone loves a “convert”. Tulsi Gabbard has been a featured speaker at CPAC since 2022. Just like Zell, it’s not really a Democrat highlighting Democratic values while supporting a Republican, it’s a conservative with a good story to tell about how the other side went too far.
And it was not only based on the quality and content of the speech (which made everything at the RNC look like Four Seasons Landscaping), but based on the fact that this previously completely unknown guy got a keynote (possibly even the keynote spot, I forget) slot at the DNC. You could tell that the party knew what they had with Obama, and within 4 years, he was goddamn President.
Do you even remember who the 2020 DNC keynote speaker was? I don’t. And that’s not because we don’t have inspiring speakers (AOC is a fantastic communicator, Ayanna Pressley is one of the best orators I’ve ever heard), it’s because the party establishment finds Obama-level politicians threatening. Looking it up now, they had 17 different people all give part of a speech. No risk of a rising star in that mish-mash. That’s why, despite several political disasters under their watch, the leadership was the same dinosaurs, only to very recently be replaced by their long term acolytes.
Remember, they didn’t want Obama to be president. When he ran for president he was the outsider because the party establishment was all lined up behind Clinton.
It’s not surprising or weird, I just wish we weren’t here
Well said. A vote for Biden is a vote for his entire administration, including all the judges and secretaries and people behind the scenes. These have proven to be overwhelmingly competent people and the roles are absolutely critical. Trump has openly said he’ll purge the entire federal government and replace them with lackeys. It’s about more than just the man.
Honestly, I would not at all be shocked if Biden resigns the day after inauguration and Harris takes over. I’ve seen several recent articles that seem to indicate she’s WAY more in tune with the concerns of the (sane portion of the) electorate, and is actively trying to step up in many areas where Biden and his campaign are dropping the ball. We’ll see what happens, I guess.
And then she’ll be the incumbent we can’t primary in '28.
Yeah, I’ve known a couple family members who had a stroke and became better people.
Sometimes it works the other way.
Personality changes arent a rare after effect, it’s pretty common.
Either way he has had a complete shift in personality and its disappointing to no end that he’s not who he was when elected.
Gabbard didn’t have a shift, she was always shitty and people just didn’t notice. Her whole political background is socially conservative politics and she increased her profile during Obama’s term attacking him from the right on Fox News. Some people got infatuated by her quitting the DNC for Bernie, but that wasn’t because she was a progressive.
Gabbard didn’t have a shift, she was always shitty and people just didn’t notice.
She’s not the only one:
How an Anti-Sexist Candidate Got Smeared as Sexist
Elizabeth Warren’s Biggest Donor Is Revealed To Have Also Funded A Major Trump Ally
he’d been saying for a while he’s NOT progressive
That began conveniently after his election.
idk. he’s always been big on fracking, and everyone remembers the jogger with a suspicious look. i don’t identify as progressive, either, so it’s not an identity i look for in anyone else, but he insists that he never told people he was progressive.
Just like the GOP when it comes time to talk about firearm reforms or another shooting
there’s no appropriate time
Biden’s been in office for more than 3 years. But all the complaints get drummed out during election season. I wonder who’s pushing them…
You’ve had your head in the sand if you haven’t been hearing people complain about Biden for nearly 4 years.
I have. But it seems to have been ramping up lately. And criticisms of things in the past now are not being done for anything but to tank the election.
Dude, it’s primary season now. It’s precisely the time when you should be criticizing someone.
You aren’t going to primary an incumbent. Get over it.
That is not at all what the argument was. You said now’s not the time. Now is literally the time.
There’s never a time.
It’s a shame the genocide had to ramp up for election season, huh? Oh well, it’s not the people that are criticizing the genocide enablers fault. That is 100% the fault of all the elected officials enabling it.
I bet trump will totally fix it. /s
Democrats should not be supporting genocide.
You should stop. So should Biden.
The election industry is massive in the USA. The media is not really indicative of the conversations of the citizens, but they do know how to start reflecting these things when it’s time to sell it.
I mean, I’m still voting for Biden over any of the Nazis on the red team, but the whole funding-a-genocide-on-gaza thing is going to make it a pretty unenthused vote.
I really wish I could vote for someone on a basis other than lesser evil.
I really wish I could vote for someone on a basis other than lesser evil.
Down-ballot exists! That’s where I’m most enthusiastic about voting. There might be some places where it’s just lesser evil option in some down-ballots, unfortunately, but you’re more likely to have a representative that represents voters within the down-ballot which makes lesser evil choice less likely.
Down-ballot exists!
And has the added benefit of a vastly lower vote count so your vote matters much more. The general election for my state rep got like 4,000 votes. And it was a blowout as expected, so really it was decided in the primary where there were a little over 2,000. One of the other races was literally decided by a single vote!
Exactly. The game sucks, but it exists and one must play to win. The other team has been remarkably successful at working every lever to their advantage for half a century now.
It would be nice if our team wasn’t treating the “game” as a friendly co-op match.
During a vs match lmao
I got to vote for Bernie Sanders twice. That was the only time I’ve voted for a politician I fully support, as opposed to voting for not-the-republican.
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If valid criticism of a candidate causes someone to decide not to vote for them, then so be it. That’s how democracy is supposed to work. What’s important is that people vote for who they want to lead them, period.
America isn’t really a democracy though. You can’t apply idyllic democratic principles to an oligarchy with FPTP.
Funny how demanding unquestioned loyalty is a MAGA cultist quality.
Hey, I’m gonna be honest: his enormous about-face of political ideology (“I no longer identify as a progressive”, when, you know, him being a progressive before was a big part of why he got elected) and obvious personality changes make me extremely suspicious that his stroke permanently affected his brain in some pretty serious ways.
That’s not a derogatory comment. That’s just an observation, and strokes can absolutely have that effect on someone.
Regardless of Fetterman’s ideology or any stated or perceived shift, he’s a pragmatist and straight-shooter above everything else. He was that way long before the stroke. The fact that a lifetime grifter and department store rapist with 91 felony indictment counts has a good chance of winning the election is absurd. A bag of rocks running against Trump should win. Biden and the Democrats are in a very weak position, but it’s clear that Biden is the chosen candidate. It makes no sense at this point to have Democrats amplifying GOP talking points, unless they’re in any position of power with the DNC to change what is inevitable right now with the Democratic nomination.
I’m in PA and I doubt his progressiveness got him elected. Anyone with a D after their name carries Philly and Pittsburgh by default. Fetterman’s no nonsense approach and the fact that the working class can relate to him got votes in Pennsyltuckey, a segment the Democrats have been losing over the years. Democrats should be in a lab right now trying to figure out how to clone Fetterman.
I’m sure I’ll be labeled a Fetterman fan boy, but I’m a 50-something 30+ year Democrat that has seen Democrats do a really good job at losing elections and letting the GOP walk all over them. Fetterman no doubt has a cult-like following, but the DNC powers that be should be examining why that is.
makes no sense at this point to have Democrats amplifying GOP talking points, unless they’re in any position of power with the DNC to change what is inevitable right now with the Democratic nomination.
That’s a bunch of horse shit. Self criticism is the only thing keeping Democrats from becoming a clone of the GOP.
Anyone telling me I can’t participate in discourse involving totally valid criticisms about any politician can go kick rocks.
Also, how is discussing his drastic turn towards conservative politics “amplifying GOP talking points”?
Democrats should be in a lab right now trying to figure out how to clone Fetterman.
Ahh yeah, America surely needs more brain damages politicians advocating for genocide…
50-something 30+ year Democrat that has seen Democrats do a really good job at losing elections and letting the GOP walk all over them.
Maybe because your generations idea of a progressive is John Fetterman? Maybe because Democrats have just become the GOP from the 90s, and thats not typically what actual progressives want?
has a cult-like following, but the DNC powers that be should be examining why that is.
I’m not sure if that’s still true. Fetterman had a cult like following because he primarily ran on labour, something he was actually progressive about. I don’t think it’s super common to be progressive on labour but an insane reactionary when if comes to everything else.
self criticism is the only thing keeping democrats from becoming a clone of the GOP
Sometimes I wonder if people on this platform were born yesterday.
What in flying fuck are you smoking. What policies or legislation overlaps between these two? One is ending school lunches for starving children and the other is trying to push progressive policies. Why, oh why, do you guys keep repeating this insane, asinine, talking point like it’s gospel. Please, for all the love that is holy, tell us where the legislature of the Democrats mirrors the GOP in Any. Fucking. Form.
I await with bated breath.
What policies or legislation overlaps between these two?
Off the top of my head, the Patriot act, the Iraq war resolution, DMCA, SOPA, KOPA, support for israel’s genocide, Japanese American interment in WW2, and the Gulf of tomkin resolution. Only some of the most dangerous policies in this nations history, no big whoop.
I like that we have to go back in time long before the southern strategy as if the Dems are a monolithic body. Just from a cursory first glance on Patriot act:
the Act passed the House by a vote of 357–66, with Democrats comprising the overwhelming majority of “no”-votes.
I won’t argue on SOPA because that is indeed contentious, but going back in time like that is really disingenuous.
I answered your question accurately. Instead of moving the goalposts after the fact, maybe you should ask a different question to begin with.
No goalposts were moved. You lied. Quick ten second Google search proved you wrong. You equivocated between the two as if they are both lock step voting the same on all legislation. Not only that, but you had to go back to W W 2 , long before the southern strategy was effected to back your claim.
Self criticism is the only thing keeping Democrats from becoming a clone of the GOP.
Well, it also helps the Democrats don’t have a criminal insurrectionist leading the party.
Anyone telling me I can’t participate in discourse involving totally valid criticisms about any politician can go kick rocks.
You can do whatever you want. What TV channels are interviewing you this week?
Also, how is discussing his drastic turn towards conservative politics “amplifying GOP talking points”?
I’m referring to what Fetterman was criticizing, not what the OP or others here discuss about Fetterman or Biden.
Ahh yeah, America surely needs more brain damages politicians advocating for genocide…
Oh, Gaza. Right. I am so sick of hearing about “genocide”. It’s BS. Despite what Israel has done over the decades, Hamas is responsible for this. They launched an offensive that had no clear objectives (like autonomy) other than killing Israelis, and specifically civilians. Now that they’re getting their ass handed to them, which was inevitable, losing a poorly-conceived offensive is coined “genocide”. Hamas thanks you.
50-something 30+ year Democrat that has seen Democrats do a really good job at losing elections and letting the GOP walk all over them.
Maybe because your generations idea of a progressive is John Fetterman? Maybe because Democrats have just become the GOP from the 90s, and thats not typically what actual progressives want?
John Fetterman beat two other well-pedigreed Democratic Senate nomination candidates, won an election over a very publicly popular GOP candidate, and took the seat of Republican Pat Toomey. While this is one data point that you cite, it doesn’t support that “my generation’s” idea of progressive is losing elections. If a lack of “sufficiently progressive” candidates is losing elections for Democrats due to progressives not voting for Democrats, those progressives are shooting themselves in the foot as the only what to get more left-leaning Democrats is to actually win elections.
Well, it also helps the Democrats don’t have a criminal insurrectionist leading the party.
Ahh, so we adopt the same ideologies as them. Surely equating valid criticism as aiding the enemy will lead to a better democratic candidate…
This is exactly how the GOP fell to a fascist, by making criticism within the party political suicide.
You can do whatever you want.
Make you kick rocks? I mean I guess, but I’m going to need an address?
What TV channels are interviewing you this week?
Like 10-12. I didn’t think it was anything special, but apparently being your mom’s 1000th customer is pretty big news. I didn’t even know prostitution was such a celebrated custom up north!
what Fetterman was criticizing
Palestinians right to existence?
am so sick of hearing about “genocide”. It’s BS. Despite what Israel has done over the decades, Hamas is responsible for this.
What would you call it? At what point do war crimes turn into genocide?
They launched an offensive that had no clear objectives (like autonomy) other than killing Israelis, and specifically civilians.
And that is bad… correct? Doesn’t that imply that killing civilians is inappropriate? Hmm it’s almost like it’s a war crime or something?
So if killing 700 civilians is bad, what is killing 25k?
Now that they’re getting their ass handed to them
Well they are mostly killing women and children, so I guess that makes it easier?
losing a poorly-conceived offensive is coined “genocide”
It’s mostly the targeting of civilian population, the collective punishment, the targeting of key civilian infrastructure, the targeting of international journalists and aid workers, the targeting of hospitals, and the summary executions.
Then there’s the fact that Hamas only had 25k members and they’ve already killed well over 25k people, most of which have been women and children. So either Hamas was primarily made up of women and children…or the idfs not really discriminating against who they are killing.
candidates is losing elections for Democrats due to progressives not voting for Democrats, those progressives are shooting themselves in the foot as the only what to get more left-leaning Democrats is to actually win elections.
You can’t vote for someone if they aren’t even an option? Democrats win when we can actually get young people excited to vote. It’s the whole reason Fetterman won in the first place.
It’s not a battle between having just a better candidate than the Republicans, it’s about getting a candidate that’s progressive enough to get young people to the booths.
he’s a pragmatist and straight-shooter
Is he? This doesn’t look like someone particularly concerned with pragmatism to me.
Fetterman noted during an interview an uptick in Democrats who have become more critical of Biden lately, and said it’s only helping former President Trump.
If it were closer to the election, I would definitely agree, and maybe it is too close now, although I don’t think so… if it is not too close, then Biden should be criticized by Democrats who have their ear to the ground to move him towards supporting more popular policies.
I’m voting for “not trump” no matter what, but if Biden doesn’t want to get criticized, he should get his shit together.
It’s absoultely fair to criticize. I’m astounded at all the people who got pissed about John Stewart calling Biden old. It’s clear we need an upper age limit on the presidency. Also, my main “wants” for the Biden admin were… Resolve covid crisis Resolve or at least drastically reduce inhumane conditions at the US Mexico border. Hold trump and members of Congress accountable for criminal acts and fomenting an insurrection.
Right now, I’d say we’re a fail on all 3 fronts.
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‘Get your MAGA hat’
He’s got it backward and needs to look in the mirror.
i.e.,
There are people who defend Trump, no matter what.
and
There are people who defend Biden, no matter what.
Sure, but we also have to realize that we live in a country with a two-party system and a winner-take-all electoral college. If you’re not helping your candidate, you’re helping the opponent.
we live in a country with a two-party system
Although they’re perpetually marginalized, we do have third-party candidates.
Edit: Amusing how people downvote a neutral, factual statement.
They’ll never have a chance in a winner-take-all electoral college system.
You’ll never convince 160 million people to vote 3rd party. So a vote for 3rd party is a vote for the most popular of the 2 candidates.
No, a vote 3rd party is a vote against your most tolerable of the two viable candidates.
a vote for any candidate is a vote against all other candidates.
The key here is that it’s a vote for the most popular of the 2 candidates based on the votes of who bothered to vote for them specifically, then further butchered via the EC. It’s a smaller, different pool of people that may elect someone that the actual majority prefer less, because part of the actual majority decided to play a different game entirely.
There’s always some excuse for progressives to shut up.
Listen, Coach Fetterman: We love your size and bombastic past but “if you aren’t for us you are against us” is not the type of faux populism that is needed in 2024.
Yes it is. Don’t want to vote for Biden because you’re not so happy with him? How about Trump? Would you rather Trump?
Here we are again in a forced choice, as if democracy exists in the US. But it’s Biden or fascism.
You’re not going to make that outcome more likely by berating people.
We’re past the point of coddling people into seeing that Trump = bad. Lives will literally be at stake. We all need some sobering perspective about the reality of a 2nd Trump administration.
Let me be more clear: Berating people is not just ineffective, but sabotages the outreach done by people who are actually focused on winning. No one actually working on voter outreach or political persuasion wants you doing that.
Calling out Trump’s ills is fine and good, but berating people to vote doesn’t work, it’s just something to make yourself feel good. If that’s actually all you’re trying to accomplish, fine, message boards can be stress relief and entertainment, but don’t fool yourself into thinking you’re working to avert a Trump return.
He’s not entirely wrong. I’ve been critical of Biden myself, but it is because I am concerned about Biden’s ability to beat Trump. I want Biden to be a stronger candidate, and a stronger leader for that matter. Criticizing Biden is the best way I know to make him to better than he’s doing now. Poking holes in candidates is my love language.
But I’m a nobody. I don’t make headlines when I point out his flaws. Maybe somebody somewhere will read something I wrote, or at a minimum it becomes part of the rising din of concern, and Biden is forced to make an effort to speak to my concerns. That’s the best I can hope for.
I’m not backing an alternative candidate. I’m not calling for him to step aside or resign. I’m not suggesting we all throw our votes away on some long shot third party candidate. Anybody who is doing those things is helping Trump. And it’s hard not to think that they don’t know they are helping Trump, which makes it hard not to think that their intent is to help Trump.
So while I think Fetterman ought to be more specific with his criticism of critics, I don’t disagree that there are people who fit his accusation. I also think there are far more reasonable progressives and moderates who have voiced legitimate concerns that Biden should do well to hear. Hillary ignored many of those same criticisms, to the peril of all Americans. America would be a much better place if Democrats tried harder to be more than just the lesser bad option. “At least we’re not traitorous rapists” isn’t a campaign slogan that inspires confidence.
It’s a primary. Vote for whoever you want.
Always vote for whoever you want. That’s how voting works.
But know what you’re voting for. Know who you’re voting for. Our electoral system is inherently flawed.
Voting for some schmuck running against Biden in the primary might make you feel good about protesting one or more of Biden’s policies. His support of Israel, his approach to border policies, his inaction on any number of progressive issues, whatever the objection, who else are you going to vote for? I know there is the pro-Palestine contingent in Michigan promoting a “none of the above” campaign, which is effective at registering your complaint.
But in the general election, it’s time to put away such petty animus and defeat the orange monster that will destroy everything.
I chose “none,” since I’ll be stuck voting for Joe in November anyway.
The “I’m a progressive until I’m voted into office” guy?! Nah fuck him
Is this the the guy that chases innocent black men around with a shotgun or is that someone else.
Fuck you, Fetterman.
What a fucking disappointment this guy is turning out to be compared to all the love he got on his campaign. Not that I’d prefer Oz by any means, but it’s still pretty crushing.
I’m increasingly sure that the rising tide of never-Biden-ers is going to send Trump back into the White House. People need to be pragmatic and strategic about their voting and encourage others to do the same. So I understand WHY he felt a need to say stupid shit like this.
But if you’re not allowed to criticize Biden without being banished to Siberia, then he’s actually insufficiently different from Trump.
I’d bet Biden would not agree with Fetterman’s message. He’s not a whiny little thin-skinned gremlin the way Trump is. Based on his political career, he can even update platforms and change policy based on that feedback. So yeah, lay down the criticism to him re: Israel, he deserves it, and enough voices might actually change the foreign policy here. Do not tell the critics their votes aren’t welcome. Their votes are still needed. And hopefully they’re smart enough to know that NOT voting for Biden will create even worse outcomes, even while they continue clearly and loudly speaking up.
I’ve said this before and got downvoted but I’ll say it again. I will not tell a Muslim person or a Palestinian that they should hold their nose and vote for Biden. If the guy in charge is actively supporting a genocide and is providing the weapons that are killing your family, friend’s family, or just someone with your same religious beliefs, I don’t think we have the right to tell them they are wrong to abstain from voting for the pro genocide of their people guy. If a president was actively supporting the Nazis in killing my people, I would not have voted for that president.
It is the candidates responsibility to listen to his constituents. Not be finger wagged into voting them.
I agree that we shouldn’t shame someone in that situation.
But the counterfactual still exists – if Biden loses, that means Trump wins. And under Trump, things will be far worse. If we’re calling Biden genocidal for taking a cynical and cowardly approach to the conflict, then I am not even sure what word can possibly be extreme enough to describe the guy who actively wants all Muslims and Arabs dead.
I fundamentally disagree with the view that your vote is some signal of deep personal convictions. Voting should always be strategic. The more strategic, the better. That’s also why how you vote in the presidential election as a resident of California can be VERY different from how you vote as a resident of Georgia. I’d love to see a significant number of people in places like New York and Colorado voting third party in protest – because it’s not going to be enough to influence outcomes in that race, but may have a real and positive effect on future politics.
I just want everyone to think very, very carefully about what the counterfactuals are. In all things.
I am someone who will likely end up voting for Biden. But when Rashida Talib says vote uncommitted, or Bassem Yousef says the same, or Andy Levin in Michigan saying that he understands why. All I can say in response to that is I get it. I wouldn’t dream of trying to talk them out of it. What I’ve seen people on lemmy and in general liberals do, is callously talk about people like them as if they are too dumb to understand what it is that they’re saying. I would argue that they’ve thought about the counterfactuals and completely understand the impact of a trump presidency. They can’t support the guy actively causing their people harm. Again. If I was caught between the nazi guy and the guy supporting Nazis overseas, I’d likely not vote for either.
If I was caught between the nazi guy and the guy supporting Nazis overseas, I’d likely not vote for either.
Totally understandable. But in our voting system, you’re effectively supporting the Nazi Guy. You are lowering the amount of votes he needs to win. People can do whatever they want, but they don’t get to act like they aren’t participating when they absolutely are. Not voting ≠ not participating.
If someone understands the counterfactuals and implications of a Trump presidency and chooses to “sit out” they should absolutely be classified as supporting Trump. That’s what they’re doing. We need to be strategic just as much as Biden needs to be a better candidate and step his shit up.
Nope. This is Biden choosing to tank his presidency. This is not on the voters who are telling him what they need from him. 80% of democrats want a ceasefire. Biden is effectively setting up a Trump presidency all on his own.
Fine, let’s say Biden is intentionally tanking his presidency. Let’s say he’s actually super buds with Bibi and fully supports what Israel is doing.
Even supposing that, he’s still not only a better option than trump on this specific issue, but an entire slew of issues.
The only way this argument is even viable is assuming that DONALD TRUMP being in power would result in less dead Palestinians. That’s absurd and I think everyone knows that.
Primary, do what you want. Send a message. The general, pick the option that results in less death in Gaza. It’s gonna be Biden or Trump who wins, there is no “nobody wins” scenario on the table.
Exactly right. A vote is a chess move, not a manifesto.
Almost no real voters view voting as a chess move. Emotion matters. People can yell at what are essentially political junkies all they want on this message board, but it’s not going to influence all those marginal voters with other stuff going on, and they’re at risk if there are big emotional issues going on (like a genocidal war). You don’t solve that problem by talking about greater evils and strategic voting.
Almost all voters strategically choose to vote for a candidate they don’t actually like.
Tbf there is no US president that would have acted differently on Gaza. The alternative is to abandon an ally. Yes, that choice is morally superior, but strategically a disaster.
Doesn’t change what I said. Also, I would wager that after this conflict future democratic presidents will be very different on their rhetoric with Israel. We’re just stuck with the decrepit windbag that was born before Israel was established.
Also, I would wager that after this conflict future democratic presidents will be very different on their rhetoric with Israel.
I would too. They’ll be supporting genocide even more overtly next time. Democrats only move to the right.
Hell man, Biden is already very different on his rhetoric with Gaza, and the language coming out of his administration is clearly evolving. I would be unsurprised to see some direct condemnations in the coming months.
I WILL, however, be surprised to see the US severing its defense agreements with Israel. There’s too much seen as at-stake in the region. Hence my prior phrasing – it’s cynical and cowardly.
And it’s hardly like Israel is the only unpalatable regime we formalize and prop up to serve what are estimated to be greater foreign police interests.
Hell man, Biden is already very different on his rhetoric with Gaza, and the language coming out of his administration is clearly evolving.
“Cut it out, guys. Here’s more money and weapons to cut it out with.”
“That’s the way we’ve always done it” is a shitty excuse for supporting genocide.
I can think of a past presidential candidate willing to bern that bridge.
Basically no political operatives would agree with his message. You’re not positively influencing voters by yelling at them and doing it as a representative of the party paints it in a negative light. We liked candidate Fetterman because he was an outsider, but this seems like the consequences of not really understanding what’s effective vs. what’s emotionally satisfying.
I mean, what’s his point we should never removed about it when Biden does shit we don’t like? I have a novel idea, maybe he should start focusing on public approval instead of you demanding that the public blindly approve of everything he does.
Yeah, I’m going to vote for him because the alternative is a bad fucking idea.
His criticism isn’t out of left field He’s earned this shit. It’s not that he’s an irredeemable president, but a significant amount of his campaign is not being Trump. And still we hope all the hell that that’s enough.
I’m still on the fence about whether I can stomach knowing that I voted for the genocidal monster that can barely remember his name because he’s better than the fascist genocidal monster that wants to end whatever semblance of democracy we might have. This country is just the worst.
WOULD YOU RATHER eat a chocolate bar off a public toilet seats lid.
OR WOULD YOU RATHER Eat a chocolate bar out of a public toilet bowl.
Lol wtf you can literally choose neither??
But he’s the lesser of two evils! Doesn’t that get you motivated to get to the polls on November? Lesser!
It really should.
And yet, it doesn’t. It’s incredibly easy to not choose either, believe it or not.
It could be worse. We could have a dictator that regulates literally everything we do. My porn is anonymous for now.
It’s unfortunately nothing new, but I do think the alternative is a new level of bad.
Literally every single US president since 1948 has assisted Israel in committing genocide against Palestinians. Don’t clutch your pearls now.
“That’s the way we’ve always done it” - people who like the way we’ve always done it.
Genocide must stop.
You’d prefer to have voted for Trump?
These kinds of comments are getting obvious. You’re string here removed about Biden, when we can all agree the alternative would be worse.
Go peddle your bullshit elsewhere.
While voting for Biden is the right thing to do in these circumstances, Fetterman has zero understanding of optics and apparently the oil companies got to him judging by his pro-Israel stance.
There are other choices. We don’t have to settle for Trump or Biden.
Come to me with your plan to convince 160 million people to vote 3rd party and then I’ll take this seriously.
Better yet, they should come to us with the plan that’s going to make ANY of the Democrats or Republicans work with a 3rd party president to allow them to get anything done. Even if some insane miracle occurred, and a 3rd party candidate got elected president, they would accomplish absolutely nothing, as it is not in the political interest of either Democrats or Republicans to work with them. In spite of what Trump would like people to believe, presidents are not dictators and can’t just do whatever the hell they want. All of the people endlessly screaming about how there are more choices simply refuse to accept this fact.
Is your plan to vote based on how everyone else votes? Seems like a great way to reinforce a two party system.
what plan does anyone have to make one of these other choices viable? bonus points if it doesn’t involve trying to overhaul both the electorate and the electoral system in 9 months.
I’m just voting 3rd party or write in and telling moderates they can either start compromising with leftists and progressives or lose to fascists a second time.
As a member of one of the vulnerable groups targeted by those fascists I want to thank you for using my family’s safety as a bargaining tool. We’re happy to be sacrificed to your protest vote which will accomplish nothing.
The moderates are doing that. They elevated Trump intentionally because they thought it would make it easier to win elections. Where is your anger towards them?
i’m pissed as fuck but my anger is irrelevant, this is a matter of my survival and your privileged attempt to “punish” the moderates is putting me in immediate danger.
Have you put any energy into telling moderates they need to wake the fuck up? Did you tell anyone they were an asshole for voting for Biden in the 2020 primaries?
Moderates aren’t losing much. They’re not the type to care about leftists losing or rightists losing.
Plenty of moderates express serious concern about Trump winning.
We kinda do though. Sure you can vote for someone else if you want, but we are going to end up with either Trump or Biden.
That’s what they’d like you to think. If everyone moved a few check boxes down on the ballot, we’d have anyone else. Break free! It feels good 😊
https://intersol.ca/news/organizational-culture-and-the-5-monkeys-experiment/
(This never actually happened but I think the idea holds)
It “feels good” but it doesn’t work. The math isn’t there. If you can’t nominate a better candidate in a Democratic primary, with a significantly smaller and further-left voter base, you aren’t even in the game for the general election. Do you want to feel good, or have an impact?
There are more than two parties – math checks out
There is literally no other reasonable option than Biden, thanks to FPTP. Voting for Trump is voting for a fascist, every other “option” is throwing your vote away.
There is literally no other reasonable option than Biden
Biden is not a reasonable option. Biden is merely the least horrifically unreasonable. The Democratic Party’s ambitions extend no further and never will.
They used to, and they can again. A party is not a person or even a group of people. Let that silly anthropomorphism go. A party is a tool, a lever of power. Don’t like the people who control it? Great! Neither do I. Let’s take it from them.
Ask Jessica Cisneros what happens when you try.
The party fights progressives and capitulates to Republicans.
The people who control the party fight progressives and capitulate to Republicans. Of course the people who control the party are going to fight us to keep control of it. It remains the only viable tool to win in general elections. Blaming “the party” is like being on a losing football team and blaming the ball.
The people who control the party fight progressives and capitulate to Republicans. Of course the people who control the party are going to fight us to keep control of it. It remains the only viable tool to win in general elections. Blaming “the party” is like being on a losing football team and blaming the ball.
“The party” is shorthand for those who control it.
Well, you sir are a free thinker. Claim your prize in the ruins of democracy.
Ahh, yes, isee. You’re just as delusional as my mother.
Sounds like you’re ok with Trump winning then.
That’s what you’re gonna get, unless you think the Republicans are going to infight like this (non-spoiler-because-duh, they aren’t)
My plan is to pick a check box without the name Biden or Trump, or maybe write someone in. Being institutionalized into thinking a vote for anyone other than Biden is a vote for Trump is a pathway to madness
