For You
One of the more interesting topic I discuss with people is why exactly they formed their vegan belief system. Some point out that they saw a documentary of Youtube video showing the horrors of animal agriculture, but that just points to our gut reaction, not necessarily the logical backing making us change our lifestyles. With that being said, where do you personally derive your beliefs from? Do you hardline certain deontological sticking points like exploitation? Do you just care about the relative net impact on creatures and their ability to thrive? Or is it something else entirely?
Personal Viewpoint
Personally, I draw my entire ethical world view on broad utilitarian viewpoints. So if a chicken were to suffer because of something I did, I must have done something wrong. Equally, if a chicken were to thrive because of something I did, I did something good. However, I do not think about the exploitation nor commodification of that chicken, because those are anthropomorphic ideas that they likely do not care about. Sure, commodification and exploitation are usually wrong because they excuse people’s actions, but, it seems to me that there are some niche cases where these qualities, which we often find as bad, are in fact morally neutral.
I think I realized that after seeing a video of someone who saved several hens from factory farms who were still producing eggs, and continued to use the eggs for their personal usage (feeding carnivorous animals and supplementing their own diet so far as the chicken did not have any physical stressors). I tried to look at the situation objectively to find some issue with the chicken being malnourished, abused, or made to do something they didn’t like. But alas, the hens involved had no medical issues, were able to thrive in a safe and comfortable environment, and were nutritionally supplemented to ensure their well being (i.e., no nutritional deficiencies). Plus, carnivorous animals got a meal so less animals as a whole were harmed.
The humans involved in the prior example did not need to consume the chickens eggs, but doing so posed no ethical issue, so for me, it was ethically neutral - a non issue.
Other Example
If you still want to read, here’s another example of my views. I personally avoid wool as I know where it comes from and the suffering that must be inflicted in our system. However, I acknowledge that there are ways in which wool can be a viable fabric while still allowing for thriving lives for sheep.
First, I think about a normal house dog. They usually hate getting a hair cut when they’re younger because they are scared of the razor. After you get a razor with a cooling blade mechanism and get them exposed to it, they learn to not be afraid of it and instead enjoy the experience since the hair cut doesn’t actually provide any physical pain. For that, I feel no moral qualms with giving them a hair cut because they seems to enjoy or be unbothered by it. If I put in the effort to utilize the hair I cut off in a meaningful way, it’d be fine to do. Especially because I just throw it away otherwise.
Equally, a sheep “wool” is simply their hair. Some breeds have the genetics to grow more or less, but growing it and having it removed do not have to bring about harm - we just do it because we value cheap goods year round far more than their livelyhoods so we adopt cruel standards. If I were to some day have some sort of homestead, where I raised sheep from their adolescence all the way to their death of natural causes, and continued to give to shave their wool, I see not problem with doing so. Given that they are well fed, not hurt in the process, and were given access to natural pastures that they can use to thrive. In fact, I’d argue that is a good thing to do as I’ve taken care of them their entire life (protection from normal predators, warm home, access to food, etc) without harming them in the process.
TL;DR exploitation and commodification are usually bad, but I find the reason for them being bad to be the harm (direct and indirect), not just the fact that they are exploited.
Thanks for writing this up. I believe that intention also matters. Although there’s no difference in terms of the contribution towards suffering, I would treat myself and others differently between accidentally eating non-vegan food vs willingly eating the same food.
I also think it’s important to consider the use of animal products in society. In your wool example, do you believe you have a responsibility to instead donate the wool to avoid others from purchasing wool that does lead to harm? As long as non-vegan societies exist, is it possible for the use of any animal product to be ethical?
Practically, in the real world, I find it easier to draw the line at avoiding the use of all animal products. Even if there may exist animal products that are ethical to use, I find it easier to adhere to the simpler principal of total avoidance. I also think total avoidance helps contribute towards activism. Being seen using animal products, however they were obtained, may enables other to legitimize their own use of animal products.
I’m not sure how this will fly here, but I want to offer a different perspective. I was someone who always respected people who made the choice to go vegan but just know myself well enough to know I would never be able to fully give up things like cheese, eggs, or meat. I’m not, like super proud about what that says about me, but it is what it is.
Since “being vegetarian” and “being vegan” were always presented as binary choices that’s kind of where the introspection stopped. I wasn’t going to “stop eating meat”, and that seemed to be the demand, you know?
Kurzgesagt’s video Why Meat is the Best Worst Thing in the World really turned me around that way of thinking. It makes a strong case that if you can’t bring yourself to totally give it up, but have sympathy for the ethical and social arguments against meat, it doesn’t have to be binary. It everyone tried to cut down how much meat they eat by 1/3, it has the same impact as 33% of meat eaters going vegan. It’s worth doing it part way.
Every since then I’ve tried to eat at least one vegetarian meal a day, preferably vegan. I won’t lie and say I always make good on it, but I’ve definitely reduced the amount I consume, and make more of an effort to incorporate things like beyond/impossible meat into recipes that I would have used beef in before, or order a vegetarian meal if the last time I went out I got something with meat. It’s not ideal, but it is more than I was doing.
I think all or nothing messages can push people away who would be willing to take some action, but not fully commit, and maybe be counter productive even if it’s cognitively easier to square.
Just my 2¢
As for the hive’s (still funny to me) rules, we try to keep the “coddling” to a minimum. I’ve heard this strategy of activism referred to as baby steps. I’ll try to side step that to avoid the rule since your thoughts are very interesting and you put a lot of effort into responding here.
Activism and Baby Steps
Something I remember hearing a while back as a bit of a confrontation was to change the group we are harming in our actions to see if that changes how we see how we act. For example, swap the following two actions.
A. "I kill 4 animals a week for my food. I can opt not to, but that is not what I am used to and I like this." B. "I went to the animal shelter and killed 4 dogs for food. I can opt not to, but that is not what I am used to and I like this"It seems like an unfair comparison, even one made out to “get” people in some sort of ethical snare, but the situation is virtually the same. Dogs and normally farmed animals have no real difference separating the two and we can opt to not kill either. In fact, dogs can and have been farmed and killed quite recently. Some are vocally upset that people have tried to stop them from doing so as it seems extreme to them for others to stop them.
Now What?
All of that being said, I understand what you mean by it being hard to change. We can look at anyone with an addiction to a substance and just tell them to switch, but we as humans are horrible at changing and there are often other factors that hold people back from doing what they ought to do.
You mention, that you would never be able to give up meat, cheese, etc. But the thing is, you don’t really have to. We, as animals, love the taste of umami, acid, salt, sugar, etc. These are just biological phenomena brought forward from our genetics to get us to consume food with vitamins, minerals, and macronutrients we need. But a vegan diet doesn’t have to give those up. Vegan foods throughout history have been made from whole foods and are delicious (especially coming from the Middle East, Africa, and South Asia).
Also, modern food science has made cheap, and often reasonably healthy, vegan alternatives to many of the things you are worried about. Just today, I consumed a homemade pizza made with spicy chorizo (made from gardein be’f crumbles) and daiya cheese (not a healthy meal, but you get my point). Hell, there are several restaurants that carry these options on their menu if we’re feeling lazy. We can cook scrambled eggs, omelets, or breakfast sandwiches with Just Egg as well. Granted, my family avoids these products and only uses them for special occasions as we opt for more whole food options, but these ones in particular are low in saturated fat and sodium - making them reasonable processed foods to consume regularly, even when compared to their animal counterparts.
If you ever want some options for your favorite foods, my partner and I love to experiment and try what is best, both in store, at restaurants, and at home. We haven’t found anything that cannot be reasonably replaced yet. I also study nutrition and am more than willing to help out with any worries you might have there.
Hi, just to let you know that I, too, once thought I could never give up animal products. I used to eat a shit load of meat and cheese almost every day. But then after one Christmas a couple of years ago I stopped (at least with the meat, I became vegan later on).
At first it was kind of difficult, because I had to come up with new / more / other meals to eat. But after a few weeks I got used to it and looking back, I realize that it was actually very easy - at least much easier than I initially thought. There’s so much in the way of replacement products nowadays. Seriously, if I could do it, you can too. It also helps to not think “does this dish taste like the animal product version?” and instead think “is this dish tasty?”
I think you make a good point with societal factors of my actions. Its a critique with some utilitarians because our hedonistic calculations are sometimes just straight out missing indirect factors - something we definitely need to consider.
For me, I rationalize this all by trying to compare the other aspects of my ethical views. When I try to make sense of what I ought to do, I consider the total good/lack of bad that the action will have. For your example, donating the wool might indeed be the most ethical option. However, I’d rate it at about as good as donating my extra food I don’t nutritionally need but want for hedonistic reasons (e.g., candy, cake, extra servings of pasta, etc). I can donate that end product and reduce the need for someone else to buy it, thus reducing harm elsewhere, but it wouldn’t be very impactful.
My main goal, in this odd scenario I’ve imagined, would be to live that life with the sheep/chickens to show others how our relationship to animals may be redefined as one that is purely mutualistic. One where we gain from them existing (food production) and they gain from our protection and modern amenities like healthcare (and hopefully we both gain social value if possible). I think that societal impact might be more than the relative bandage of donating wool/egg to offset harm from other people’s choices.