Would fucking love it if we just got rid of tipping all together. Employers -not customers- should be responsible for providing employees good pay.
Factor the difference into up front price of the food/service and be done with it.
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But it should be a hard opt-in, no “decline tip” bullshit, social engineering is still at issue
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If Businesses don’t get a share of tips Square’s model dies and SE with it.
Not my problem to figure out their business model.
Ordering from a place that you know pays workers in tips and not tipping makes someone more of a removed. You’re not changing anything because without legislation there will never be enough people to make it happen. The system is too established. At this point claiming to be working towards change by not tipping is just making an excuse because you weren’t ever going to tip and it’s not fooling anyone.
Definitely. In my country, tipping aren’t expected but it’s a pleasant thing to receive in service industry, in US of A, tipping is expected and people will vehemently defend the status quo.
It’s expected because waiters can’t make minimum wage without it. It’s not defended because people like that waiters are paid so little, it’s defended because they’re paid so little and politicians, until now, have seemed to have no interest in changing that. Like so many things in this country, the people have to come up with a patchwork solution just to keep others alive because the politicians don’t care.
So yes, I will defend tipping until this is fixed everywhere in the U.S. And I doubt it will be fixed any time soon. I’ll be surprised if it’s even fixed in these five states.
Tipping is still expected here in Washington where the minimum wage for tipped employees is the same.
Sure, because it’s easier to have the same policy everywhere than to not know whether or not you should be tipping depending on the state you’re in. I think that makes sense. Do you really want people from Washington going to Oregon and not tipping because they think they don’t have to?
It has already become your culture, like it or not. Whether you tip or not, employer has to make up the different if the tip doesn’t add up to the minimum wage, so you’re essentially subsidising the employer as of now. Fixing the minimum wage will not get rid of tipping culture either, and exploitative employer knows that, so they will continue to pay the bare minimum and expect the customer to foot the bill.
I wonder if everyone reaction will change if we change “Tipping” to “Subsidising”, because that’s what the current status quo are.
Yeah, I’ve always thought of it that way too: abhor the underpaying bosses and the politicians who allow it and advocate for change, but until then keep tipping generously no matter the level of service.
If you get bad service, your server might be having a rough day and/or the place might be busy or otherwise make their job of serving you more difficult. That doesn’t mean that you have a right to deny them rent and food money.
Pretty much where I’m at. Not going to protest a shitty system by taking it out on a waiter, but will vote to abolish the whole thing and put the burden on the employer where it should be.
That doesn’t mean that you have a right to deny them rent and food money.
That’s the insane part - you do have the right to deny them rent or for food money. You shouldn’t, but under the tipping model you absolutely do.
I mean yeah, you LEGALLY have the right, I meant that you morally and ethically absolutely don’t.
Which is why I’m opposed to tipping as a system. It’s predatory. It transfers a moral responsibility to customers that should be on the employer, which provides the foundation for guilt-based social engineering targeting the customer, and a reliance of the employee on the success of that social engineering - the alternative being not getting paid because some asshole didn’t think you refilled his drink fast enough.
Imagine if a hospital or something was run like that. Your insurance covered the doctors’ and admins’ pay, but the nurses, techs, and support staff all just rely on tips! *shoves an iPad with a credit card reader onto your lap*
It’s insane that that model is legal for any business.
I beg to differ. I think morally an ethically not letting society dictate. What you do with your own money is the correct stance. If you go to your job and you get paid that is your money and you should absolutely under no circumstances be obligated to tip because society has made you think that they need it to live. That’s your money that you need to live it’s absolutely ridiculous that people make statements trying to guilt trip you into thinking that you owe it to someone else to give your hard-earned money to them because their employer decides not to do it. Screw that. And no I’m not saying don’t tip, what I’m saying is don’t support businesses that expect you to pay their employees wages. I significantly cut down eating at restaurants because I don’t think that I should be obligated to pay employees wages, especially with the ridiculous prices. The restaurants charge for food nowadays. I absolutely hate the narrative of people guilt tripping other people because they choose not to tip. That is their obligation in right and they should absolutely not feel bad about it whatsoever.
Not going to protest a shitty system by taking it out on a waiter, but will vote to abolish the whole thing and put the burden on the employer where it should be.
That vote / change will never happen if you don’t push back on tipping, that’s just the human nature of the situation.
You’re assuming you owe the server rent and food money. Where are you the employer? How does that server deserve special benefits over the person at the drive through, the busser, the stocker at the grocery, etc? You’re an enabler, keeping an abusive system alive to benefit one small category at the expense of everyone else
Granted, I tip generously as well, but that’s because I’m a pussy who doesn’t stand behind my beliefs
but that’s because I’m a pussy who doesn’t stand behind my beliefs
Hey, at least you’re honest about it. :)
The cost of paying those people at the very least minimum wage is factored into the price of your purchase, except for the busser, who shares tips with the servers.
Because that’s not the case with servers, you tip in order for the server to get paid for performing a service for you.
You’re an enabler, keeping an abusive system alive to benefit one small category at the expense of everyone else
No. I’ve been clear from the start that tipping is a thing we have to do temporarily so that servers don’t starve or become homeless before we finally fix the system.
Maybe the only way to finally fix the system is to stop tipping, so servers will go elsewhere until pay comes up. Normally I disagree with this line of thinking because it’s not easy to change careers, but serving is usually a “job” not a career. If we’re worried about minimum wage, I claim that many minimum wage jobs are easier to switch among. If a job requires special skills and knowledge, it deserves pay as such.
That doesn’t mean that you have a right to deny them rent and food money.
Their bosses and/or their lack of wherewithal in obtaining a job that pays enough to meet their standard of living is responsible, not the customer of the company.
So yes, I will defend tipping until this is fixed
Can’t defend the status quo and expect things to be fixed, they’re mutually exclusive of each other. Human nature demands that.
You absolutely can defend the status quo until things are fixed and work for things to be fixed. Maybe you think a change should come at the expense of waiters feeding themselves or their families. I do not.
You absolutely can defend the status quo until things are fixed and work for things to be fixed.
It hasn’t so far, and human nature being what it is, makes it a safe bet that it won’t. Having said that, I hope I’m wrong.
Also, its ethically wrong to put the onus on the customer to support the status quo, that’s the employer responsibility to take care of their employees in all ways, and an employees responsibility to not work for any boss that won’t do that.
Maybe you think a change should come at the expense of waiters feeding themselves or their families. I do not.
YES! Tortuuure them, make them SUUUFFEERRRRR!!1!!11!!! /s
If the guy in the next stall asks me for a roll of toilet paper (because he’s out), I’m going to give him a roll, as a civic duty to take care of each other.
If the guy in the next stall asks me to come over and wipe his ass for him, he’s on his own.
That’s a lot of words to say you don’t give a shit if a waiter can’t afford to feed their kids as long as you don’t have to give them any of your money. I hope you don’t go to restaurants if you feel that way.
and people will vehemently defend the status quo.
Well, server employees will, because they don’t want to deal with the loss of pay and/or the upheaval in their salary intake. No one likes a negative change to how they make a living and pay the bills.
Having said that, generally speaking, is it people, or ““people”” (aka corpo shills/bots) that are defending the status quo? Certain corporations have a big interest in maintaining the status quo and shaping the narrative towards that end.
We’re not defending the status quo we’re stuck with it. But yes, going to another country and ignoring their customs would make people look at you like an asshole because you’re being an asshole unless you genuinely didn’t know. We’re not dancing around delighting in tipping people. We just know that not tipping hurts absolutely nobody except the server. Maybe you’re comfy with making someone else suffer to prove a point but I’m not.
You put too much emotional charged word into my mouth, thing i did not said, and that’s really tells a lot how you feels about tipping culture in US and will never spare a thought on why it’s as it is. I in no way should be responsible for the wellbeing of another’s employees, that is the responsibility of their employer. Not tipping isn’t making someone else suffer to prove a point, that’s like saying me not being a doctor is making someone else suffer. That’s some ridiculous kind of mental gymnastic.
What tipping does is continuing the justification of paying them subminimal wage and demand the customer to foot the bill and hope it will make more than the minimum wage as employer might have to pay their worker more if the wage + tip didn’t add up to minimum wage. That’s some late stage capitalism stuff right here you’re supporting, or rather, “stuck” with.
I told you in plain words how I feel about tipping culture. How you choose to interpret that is your business.
I don’t need you to lecture me about what goes on in my own country or about how we feel because you’re not even talking from experience. Go ahead and “fight capitalism” by stiffing people on tips if it makes you feel better. You’re not helping anyone though so stop fooling yourself. You’re just being cheap.
Well if you say so, i don’t need you to lecture me about being “generous” either. Take your opinion elsewhere if you don’t want it to be challenged in a conversation.
What a toxic country. 🙄
Unless “we” change it via legislation, that’s never going to happen. Let’s explore how it would play out as an individual restaurant initiative:
Restaurant raises staff wages, raises prices to cover the increase. Even if you disclose it on the menu, customers don’t care: they see prices 20% higher, they choose to eat somewhere with cheaper menu prices. This is frequently what happens when restaurants try to do that.
If the restaurant increases server wages less than what they would make in tips, the servers will leave for another restaurant. The benefit of tips is that the harder you work, and more tables you take, the more money you make. Good servers can make $50+ an hour if they hustle.
Source: 8 years experience in the industry.
The benefit of tips is that the harder you work, and more tables you take, the more money you make. Good servers can make $50+ an hour if they hustle.
I shouldn’t be paying my server’s wage; the restaurant should.
Name one other job (that isn’t in the food service industry) where the buyers subsidize the worker’s salary voluntarily.
Literally every other contractor. But that’s irrelevant to the point.
This is the way it is. Whether or not it’s a good system, it’s the system which exists. Changing the system will require a transition. If that transition comes from individual restaurants changing their policy, they will have 1) staffing issues as no server will stay when they could make more elsewhere, 2) customer issues as customers will prefer restaurants with lower menu prices, even if the total is the same.
This isn’t a value judgement, or a defense, this is a statement of fact. The only change that will stock would have to come from legislation. Societal systems have considerable inertia.
Again, name one other industry.
It’s entirely irrelevant.
Name one industry with security theater like air travel. Name one industry with lobbying like politics. Name one industry with subsidization like agriculture.
The tipping situation is a product of a problematic history, but it is what it is. The entire system is based on it. Saying something is unique has nothing to do with the process to change it.
Security Theatre is an overreaction to a single event. Most of it can also be trashed. Also, the air travel industry didn’t have security theatre for nearly a century.
Lobbying? Very similar to shareholders and boards of directors. Other governments also have varying amounts of lobbying, so it’s definitely not intrisic to the system.
Lots of industries get massive subsidies: Oil & Gas, Aerospace, Healthcare, Nuclear, Research, Energy, Automotive, Semiconductors, Real Estate, IT, many big corporation have squeezed a subsidy out just by threatening to leave a state! To some extent, every public service is a subsidy, just where the government owns the ‘company’. Some governments (probably) don’t do subsidies, but lots do, and one could argue that some system like subsidies is necessary for a well functioning government & country.
However, I agree that the uniqueness of a practice says very little about how good it ultimately is for anything.
My point has nothing to do with whether a practice is good or not. It’s about how deeply entrenched the practice is, and the practical complexities of uprooting the practice. Bad practices still require significant consideration in undoing.
My point is that “we should do away with ___” is an impotent sentiment by itself. Who is we? How are “we” going to actually do it? What does the transition period look like? What are the consequences? These are questions that, pragmatically, must be taken into consideration when implementing any large change, totally independent of any value judgement of that change.
Why are you so stuck on that? Other industries not doing it doesn’t matter. It’s the system in place now and would take a big effort from everyone (aka legislation) to change. That’s the point. They’re not even defending the tipping system.
Name. One. Industry.
I’ll wait.
The only people who have the power to eliminate tipping are the customers. Even if employers randomly started paying servers $50 an hour, people could still tip…and many probably would to get that feeling of moral superiority. And that is sort of irrelevant anyway because how the fuck are the customers supposed to know the servers wage anyway? I literally have no idea what my server (or hostess or line cook or after hours cleaning crew staff) makes at the last place I ate at. Do you?
It’s really not complicated. If customers stopped tipping, and servers can’t support themselves and therefore they are forced to quit and move towards literally any other industry with a higher/stable wage. Then employers either go out of business altogether or, more realistically, raise wages to replace those workers who quit since the employer would like to keep making money instead of not making money. And thus, menu prices go up to account for the lack of tipping.
No one has ever been able to provide me a scenario where tipping ends without servers quitting due to inadequate/unstable income. But I’m certainly open to suggestions!
Thing is, no one would accept to pay what’s written on the menu if they charged enough to cover what people pay in tip, it’s all psychological manipulation.
Prices would need to increase by about 20% and you wouldn’t have a choice to pay it anymore, contrary to tips. Or you accept that servers now only make minimum wage.
That’s interesting.
InIt works all across the world exactly how you say it wouldn’t work.To be fair, in the rest of the world there aren’t tipped establishments competing with next door no-tipping establishments. People are bad at math, a menu of $13 + tip options seems cheaper at a glance than a menu of $15 no tip options. We are talking about the country where the 1/3rd pounder burger failed after all
So tipping is a byproduct of Americans being idiots?
Service expectations across the world are drastically lower than in the US.
Do servers make over 70k/year everywhere in the world?
That’s something people don’t realize in North America, restaurant servers make fucking bank! If they complain about not having money it’s because of the restaurant culture of going out after every shift.
Some restaurant servers make bank. Some don’t even make enough with tips to bring them up to minimum wage. Yes, the employer is supposed to top them up to minimum wage when that happens, but if I had a nickel for every labor violation in the US, well I’d be making a lot more than minimum wage.
This lack of fairness even within the industry, is yet another reason to end tipping culture. Some servers make excellent money but all too many make little. This is yet another institution benefitting a few well off at the expense of everyone else
What’s your experience in the restaurant industry?
Good servers make about half of what you think they make. Your number is reserved for senior sommeliers and chefs; the only way FOH hits that is by selling drugs to BOH or working 80hr weeks.
If it paid that well there’d be no staffing issues at all, think about it.
At my last job servers are making 300+ in tip every 8h shift and get their salary that’s way above minimum plus they have full benefits including a pension fund and the business still has a hard time finding staff because the restaurant industry in general is a mess including the people working in it that think grass is always greener elsewhere.
Edit: Forgot, they’re unionized too
most of your country is nothing like your extremely privileged little bubble.
I’m just pointing out that saying “If they were paid that much we wouldn’t have trouble finding staff!” is bullshit. With even better conditions my previous employer has trouble finding staff.
There is a lot more to economy than some number in some currency. There are servers in many first world countries making wages where they are able to pay for their homes and have social services like healthcare, all while customers at their places of employment pay the listed price.
70k USD means nothing in isolation, without respect for local economy and cost of living.
That’s the thing though, they already charge enough to cover what people pay in tip but guess what? That doesn’t make them enough money. Next time they raise prices. They won’t take responsibility for it, they’ll blame it on the economy, but never the owners and shareholders that are making more profit than ever.
As a person who’s been in the restaurant business, no, the vast majority of restaurants in North America don’t make a large enough cut to pay their servers 35$/h. Most are always a couple of bad months away from closing. There’s a reason why it’s the type of business with the highest “turnover” rate for the business itself.
Now if you want restaurants to give servers the same wage they’re making now it means all prices need to be marked up about 20% (since people tip based on price after taxes) and in the end the customers pay the same thing, they just don’t have a choice about it.
Yes, just like everywhere else I have to spend money, why can’t I know how much I pay by looking at the prices? Why can’t we all be honest here?
If your business can’t pay a living wage, you shouldn’t be in business.
Lot of people in this thread know nothing about the restaurant industry, but feel entitled to strong opinions about it.
Couriers (DoorDash, GrubHub, UberEats, etc.) are not employees. They are contractors.
There is no minimum wage for contractors. The base pay for these services don’t quite cover the $0.655 per mile that the IRS allows drivers to claim in travel expenses. The only money these drivers actually take home is customer tips.
If you, as a customer, do not believe in tipping couriers directly, that’s perfectly fine, so long as you DO NOT use these services. As these drivers operate almost exclusively on tips, using these services without tipping is socially equivalent to begging in the streets.
As these drivers operate almost exclusively on tips, using these services without tipping is socially equivalent to begging in the streets.
Imagine a system so broken you say shit like this lol.
All you’re saying here is that the base pay is too low.
I think the loopholes include:
- assuming a “take it or leave it” from a huge company to an individual, can ever be a valid contract
- paying “sufficiently “ for an employee while also delegating business expenses
- bending the regulations around what is allowable for contracting vs effectively employee
- skirting regulations on similar legacy business models
- fraudulent menus and pricing
False. If drivers don’t make enough, they stop driving. Enough stop driving the business has to change their model to entice new drivers. That’s how you bring about change. Not sitting online complaining, hoping that the government will get off their asses and fix it
They’re employees being exploited by a loophole. DoorDash n’ friends are predatory businesses, and are a great example of why we need better regulations on this kind of shit.
It’s not a loophole or predatory, it’s just something the people doing these one-off job knowingly agreed to. I myself certainly agreed to it years back each and every time I accepted another order. The key was to not agree to orders that don’t make any fucking sense. It was all optional.
I don’t know how we could ever regulate away the issue of people who decide not to act in their own best interest. Probably best to focus on education or something?
I refuse to use these services for three reasons. One, I think they’re unnecessary. Two, I think they’re unreliable. Three, I think they’re exploitative.
I don’t see how it’s my responsibility to give my money that I earned doing my job to someone else for doing their job and I shouldn’t have to avoid the service because of that. If I want to use the service I should be able to because, why not, I want to. I shouldn’t give that up just because someone wants me to pay their wages.
This is why I don’t use those services. They are both predatory, and taking advantage of regulatory loopholes
They do need to be fixed somehow though. I have elderly relatives with mobility issues who can really benefit from these services. Beyond more transparency and fixing the regulatory gaps, I don’t k ow how to make it both more fair to the gig worker and more affordable to those who need it though.
Maybe a subscription model? I’d pay Uber Eats a fixed price for my Mom to get as much delivery as she needs, assuming an even playing field we’re established
What do you suppose would happen if everyone all at once just stopped tipping and kept using the service? Like I’m serious, what do you actually think would happen?
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Please! For the love of God! Get rid of tipping!
I hate tipping! As the consumer I should not be responsible for proving a living wage for someone else’s employees!
as a European I have to say both the Tipping culture and the not showing the full price in stores with VAT included is just mindblowing.
It’s literally a culture of hiding true costs, weird af.
It’s literally a culture of hiding true costs, weird af.
Makes me happy though in this day and age that people are waking up to this fact, and are starting to push back on it.
In the past corporations/governments thought people were a lot more unaware, than they are today.
Hotels too. The advertised price is never accurate because their stupid resort fees.
What now? First I’m hearing of this. How much extra?
Again, it’s prevalent in the US market, not sure about others. They advertise say $199 / night, but when you go to check out, there’s something like a ~$35- $50 /night resort fee to “pay for amenities like WiFi/ gym /pool”. You can’t reject paying the fee, so your hotel room is actually like 25% higher than advertised.
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Have lived in both eu and us.
Agree, but the challenge on tax is that it’s not harmonized across municipalities. This means that stores that are across the street from each other may have identical prices/profit margin and a different net price to the consumer. This would lead to consumer preferences biased by physical location and have lots of other weird side effects. You can see this in areas that border state lines when the tax is appreciably different.
Step one is a harmonized tax rate, but that’s easier said than done.
The true cost is different no matter how it’s advertised, no? Harmonized tax is great and all, but lying about price is still bad, irrelevant of the actual price.
One way or another, you’re paying those employees wage. One of them doesn’t get taxed or advertised is all.
Yes and no. All tips are supposed to be reported to the IRS. Whether they are or not is not really relevant. What really matters is that the customers aren’t forced to do an owners job. If an owner needs their customers to prop up their employees then the owners shouldn’t be in business.
I used to make $2.35/h when I was in the service industry. Without my customers I would’ve been fucked. What’s worse is on a slow night, I really did get fucked.
You dont have to tip bro its okay
It’s not okay. I can hear some of my customers’ anxiety when they struggle to tip me. Some people lord it over me like I should revere them for their blessing. There is an unnecessary layer of stress to the customer service routine for everyone involved except the owner who benefits from this system. Not to mention some businesses pool their tips and share it with everyone, sometimes redirecting these funds into unscrupulous items like snacks without consent. >:(
Tips don’t motivate me to provide great customer service to my customers. Tips serve to maintain cheap labor, but more important to me is how they erect social barriers. I can’t blame someone for wanting or being motivated by tips when they’re stuck near the bottom of the socio-economic ladder. I’m there too so I understand, but there’s just no reason for tips when we can get/provide great service without adding layers of paranoia; When we can provide a satisfying quality of life for everyone in the process with a
not-so-simple wage increase (and God forbid, better budgeting and management from business owners).They also in general make my job harder, especially when an old person who’s basically blind can’t find any of the buttons or follow simple directions (PRESS 3 FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, MARIANNE)
I’d like to supplement that I’ve had access to my various employer’s records multiple times… because why lock the admin computer.
With my current employer, my entire wages for the month are paid for with net profits in a single day thanks to the skeleton crew we operate. I get to work knowing every other day is going straight to my boss’s luxurious life-style because it’s certainly not coming back here.
Don’t be surprised when you hear of another staff walk-out~
Fuck tips, support good living standards for everyone!
No. I actually kinda do. Like if I’m out with friends I literally get judged if I tip poorly let alone if I don’t tip at all which is social suicide.
And if I have a coupon for a meal, say 50% or something like that I still have to tip on the original amount before the discount was applied.
Moreover, and most importantly in some restaurants tipping is the only source of income the server gets. Regardless of how I feel about it I am still responsible for this person’s wage.
I hate tipping culture.
You have friends? Wow that must be nice
It’s not socially acceptable to not tip servers in a full service restaurant in the USA. It’s becoming a required social norm to tip fast casual.
The pandemic really changed the tipping norms in the USA.
As a german the whole tip system in the US is both redicilous and hilarious to me.
We have tipping here, too (we literally call it “drinking money”). With the difference, that it’s pretty much voluntary and if you don’t have much money (e.g. as a student) noone will expect you to tip.
Having tips be part of the actual wage totally defeats the point of them…Are you a true American if you don’t shaft your employees for every penny that you can though?
This is actually a great reason for ending tipping. I used to feel like I was on the server’s side, slipping them cash the business couldn’t steal, but I never use cash anymore so have no idea who it’s going to. Also, businesses are getting more sleazy with required “tips” and fees, and it’s all one giant tax fraud no matter which way you put it.
Actual prices on the menu are better for the customer, actual pay is better for the server, accounting for everything is better for the business and accurate reporting is better for all of us who depend on services paid for by taxes
I totally agree with you and my comment was sarcasm.
The price should be upfront and the only thing you have to pay.
I totally agree with you and my comment was sarcasm.
Might want to add a “/s” to your comment next time, just to same everyone a little bit of time.
How about no, Scott.
Its the violence inherited in the system.
Are you a true American if you don’t shaft your employees for every penny that you can though?
No, but a true Capitalist, yes.
(Sad of me to write that, as there used to be a time where companies made good products and accepted reasonable profit margins, going for the win-win scenarios. Today’s Capitalism seems all about the win-lose scenarios.)
Bro just said he was German
Sarcasm
Germans are professionals at telling other people what they’re doing wrong
Exactly. Here in my country we just have amateurs doing it (badly), we need more Germans.
I was so confused the first time I went to Germany. I asked someone there about tipping and they said, “you can, but you don’t have to.”
That didn’t really clarify it enough for me so I just tipped like I do in the US. Didn’t want anyone thinking I was a jerk.
That’s how it started here too.
https://time.com/5404475/history-tipping-american-restaurants-civil-war/
After the Constitution was amended in the wake of the Civil War, slavery was ended as an institution but those who were freed from bondage were still limited in their choices. Many who did not end up sharecropping worked in menial positions, such as servants, waiters, barbers and railroad porters. These were pretty much the only occupations available to them. For restaurant workers and railroad porters, there was a catch: many employers would not actually pay these workers, under the condition that guests would offer a small tip instead.
“These industries demanded the right to basically continue slavery with a $0 wage and tip,” Jayaraman says.
As an American and former tipped employee, living in a country without tips is so much better. However, there are some groups trying to make tips happen here in Japan. If you get good service, tell the manager or corporate. If you’re a regular, give them an actual small gift (this happens anyway because people exchange gifts when they go on vacation and such). If it’s a bar employee, buy them a drink. I like this much better.
“Ballot measures pending in Michigan, Arizona, Ohio and Massachusetts, and a bill being reintroduced in Connecticut”. There.
MVP
So that should cover everyone in this day and age since everyone asks for a tip now /s
IT’S ABOUT TIME.
Greedy employers leverage tipping to pay their employees the least amount possible. It’s fucking disgusting.
And too many people who receive tips don’t realize that it’s their employer fucking them over rather.
It’s worse than that, most of the time, employers are skimming from the tips. Don’t tip for things that were previously non-tipped and give the person cash if you can.
The scummiest thing I’ve seen is restaurants adding a percent service fee before asking for an extra tip on top. Not a delivery service or 3rd party, the restaurant itself. Basically it makes customers tip less because they see the service fee so it’s just flat out stealing the tip from workers.
most of the time
Citation needed. When I worked for tips, my tips never got skimmed.
Not them, but every tipped job I’ve had has been skimmed.
Whether to pay the cooks, dishwasher, or just straight pocketed by the owner, I only ever got 50-75% of the tip.
I’ve had my manager take our tip pool for snacks. The justification being that the snacks are for everyone even though half of us didn’t eat the snacks. >:( I don’t want chips, especially when it’s my customer’s good will directed towards me.
Surely you’ve got a source on this highly illegal activity. Or is it more likely you’re making stuff up?
How is it a minimum wage if you dont have to pay it in full?
There’s a loop hole where companies don’t have to pay minimum wage if tips amount to the minimum wage that would have been earned by the employee.
It’s a shitty way for companies to not pay their employees and expect customers to pay them.
That’s great, but minimum wage needs a huge overhaul.
20 bucks minimum wage
Reminder that a “living wage”, and what most servers make, is at least 3x minimum wage, so tipping is still going to be required.
Why? I hope this is just the first step toward the end of tipping culture. Why should servers be held out as a special category deserving higher pay? They deserve a decent wage at least minimum, just like everyone else. If businesses need to pay them more to attract employees, then that’s the free market at work. That’s more predictable, transparent, honest toward all of the business, the employee, and the customer
Servers shouldn’t be special, obviously. The obligatory tipping system we have is an complete dumpster fire. But this is taking employees who currently make $30/hr in tips and changing their minimum wage from $2/hr to $7/hr. It’s not going to change anything. How could it? Would you give up a $30/hr job to take a $7/hr job on principle? Unless you’re independently wealthy, you couldn’t even if you wanted to.
But this is taking employees who currently make $30/hr in tips and changing their minimum wage from $2/hr to $7/hr. It’s not going to change anything.
Well at that point then the employers will need to raise how much they’re offering the employees, or the employees will look for other work. Normal capitalistic market scenario.
Bottom line is for the employees to keep making the same kind of money, but having that be done out of the employer’s pocket, and not the customer’s pocket.
And if the employer refuses to give up some of their profits to the employee to do that, and instead just tries to raise the prices of their products to offset, then they’ll find themselves going out of business right quick like, again, normal capitalistic market scenario.
Would you actually just put your head down and keep working there if that happened to you? Like…why?
Especially when Joe’s Tavern down the road is starting people off at $40/hour! It’s like the only place left in town after everyone quit and all the restaurants went under, so they got away with charging $18 a beer and $29 a burger! The owner must be making a killing…
Tipping is, by definition, not required.
Tipping is “not required” the way that not cheating on an SO is “not required”. No, you’re not going to get arrested for it, but that doesn’t make it okay.
This is more like someone I barely know and never agreed to be in a relationship with getting upset about me seeing other people.
If you agree to monogamy, it’s cheating and unethical for sure. If you don’t agree to monogamy, cheating isn’t even possible lol.
So if I agree to pay the listed price of an item and then I pay for it in full…
This is more like someone I barely know and never agreed to be in a relationship with getting upset about me seeing other people.
But you did decide to walk into a restaurant and order, knowing full well that the employees there currently require tips to survive, yes? And you also understand that your single act of not tipping one person doesn’t change societal convention, it only hurts that individual worker?
Your analogy is fraught. Let me revise it for you:
This is more like someone I barely know and never agreed to be in a relationship with getting upset that I shit in their toilet without flushing.
I never consented to any of it. And no, I don’t know what the servers make. I only know what I made as one at a specific restaurant like 15 years ago. My uncertainty is even more pronounced when I’m on vacation in an area I’ve never worked as a server.
Can you please just let me know the actual price so I can agree to pay it or not. I just want all the information so I can make a decision. How much is the cheeseburger that says $10 on the menu? Ffs I’m hungry.
But no, it’s like you’re afraid to give an actual price because you don’t want to risk limiting the hypothetical maximum you can scam out of some sucker.
I have also worked as a server, briefly, at a corporate establishment. For each well paid server there is certainly one not making enough money.
You’re still not getting the point: you choose to eat at a restaurant. If you’re just hungry and out of time and don’t feel like tipping, you’re able to patronize somewhere where the majority of the employees wage does not come from tips. Yes, every fast food place has those rip screens now and most people are ignoring them. I’m not talking about fast food employees, I’m talking about Jan at Bob’s greasy spoon diner or Tim at Chili’s.
So, are you really arguing for using a server’s labor without compensating them for it?
I’d just like to know the price of a ‘$10’ cheeseburger so I can make an informed decision. You’re refusal to state the actual price tells me everything I need to know.
And I’m not buying any of the servers labor, I’m buying a cheeseburger. The only business relationship I have here is between me and the business owner selling cheeseburgers. The only reason I came here is that I’m hungry for a delicious cheeseburger.
Are you really arguing about this from a device produced within a system where people in sweatshops get paid far less than servers and without even any possibility of tips? You must see the irony a bit…or did you somehow tip the sweatshop kids when you bought your phone/laptop? Or did you assume the entire chain of people who produced the device are paid fairly? I mean, sure, maybe they are (as unlikely as that is). But it’s going to take a whole lot of research to determine that or even come close to determining.
More than anything, I’d really just like to know how much currency I need to exchange for one cheeseburger listed on the menu for $10… but since the menu can’t be trusted. I’m asking, please, how much is that cheeseburger?
but that doesn’t make it okay.
It’s okay to not to tip for normal service.
Tipping is supposed to be done for extraordinary service, above the call of what the employee is normally required to do for the customer.
If the employee is not earning enough then that’s a matter for between the employer and the employee to resolve, not the customer.
Unfortunately that’s not the reality in full service restaurants in the US, where I live. Servers are reliant on tips to live. The practice is pervasive. I don’t know of a single non-tipped full service restaurant in my city.
Unfortunately that’s not the reality in full service restaurants in the US
As someone who lives in the US and was actually at a full service restaurant just last night, I can’t agree, just depends on the place/region.
Also, if you are basing your existence on just the goodwill of others, that’s not a smart or healthy way to live.
Really get tired of repeating the same points over and over again, so I’ll just leave it as “everyone is the captain of their own ship”, metaphorically speaking.
It’s okay to not to tip for normal service.
Tipping is supposed to be done for extraordinary service, above the call of what the employee is normally required to do for the customer.
If the employee is not earning enough then that’s a matter for between the employer and the employee to resolve, not the customer.
Yup, servers often times make much more than other “minimum wage” jobs.
Nah, the shift has finally begun. It’s gonna happen
I hope so. I hope something like this makes it to a ballot in my state.
It doesn’t require any ballot lol. People are just tipping less and less over time and the practice is dying.
Since Lemmy is trying to be better than Reddit, can we agree that titles should be like ‘5 US states…’? Not every person that reads news here lives in the United States 🕊️
Americans are so self centered that they think anything in English is automatically based in the US unless said otherwise.
Are there other countries that have"states" and not provinces?
many federal countries have states. Examples: Mexico, Brazil
Oh shit I didn’t know Mexico had states o.o I assumed a lesser known country would have states. Thanks
The state of Texas is committed to ending slavery in the coming decade. As a first step they are proposing that minimum wage should cover an entire cardboard box living quarters. And we’re not talking shoebox size Amazon hand me downs that still have the return address tag! They will remove the tag and provide enough duct tape to seal that portion of the box. Under article 17 of the 2024 end of slavery pact, they propose that men and women under the age of 27 shall not be responsible for sealing and or weather proofing their cardboard boxes. Older people are not covered yet, but may be covered as soon as two or three more migrant babies are sold back to their respective Mexican families. Indeed, Texas is making strides to accommodate the world’s demands for fair treatment of human rights and the people who should have them.
It’s also bullshit that tipped workers rarely pay taxes on the vast majority of their earnings. We’re subsiding their wages, access to infrastructure, and social services.
Lmao this has got to be the most misplaced anger ever. You’re mad at people that don’t even make minimum wage aren’t paying taxes on the maybe $35k a year? How about the billionaires that basically don’t pay taxes? Maybe we should deal with that first.
It’s been a long time since ither of you’ve been a server, huh? They’re doing better than that unless they are part-time.
Your point stands, that taxing billionairs is good, but a full-time server is probably doing 50k+ in all but the lowest cost of living areas. Because a tipped employee earns a % of goods sold, they are hurt less by inflation. The rising prices people pay result in higher tips. But since most places aren’t cash, only the vast majority of their tips are via card and thus recorded and reported.
TLDR, they aren’t as bad off as people think, and they are mostly taxed correctly.
50k ain’t shit these days
That’s at the minimum. My friend clears 100k working fine dining, but I know that’s an exception.
Considering a 4 top will be guaranteed, get a bill over $100 their averages have risen. And since I am in California, they get their county’s minimum, which is $17/hour plus tips. So my friends who serve part-time make about 60k annually here. Not bad for part-time work.
This is why I think most states should be moving our direction, as the article states.
Servers aren’t getting a constant influx of people every day that they work, it varies from day to day except for the most popular places, even then tips aren’t consistent amongst different groups of guests at popular places.
It’s not their fault that their income comes from untaxed tips because their boss isn’t paying them a taxable wage.
All business is like this, which is why we average our earnings in these discussions.
When I managed a grocery store where tips were super rare and never % based, the slow days were about $36k earnings, and the busy days were about $92k. Unfortunately, a server still has to be present on slow days, which may be low earning days, but often that’s balanced with another preferred shift.
Did they take the job? Who’s fault is it that they’re showing themselves to be ‘taken advantage’ of?
Not everyone takes a job because they want to, a lot of people wait tables because they need some source of income. They’re being taken advantage of because they’re willing to work for anything.
For reference, Musk paid 8.3 billion in federal taxes in 2021, after all the evasion tricks. So even if the servers are being taxed correctly, who cares, it doesn’t actually impact the economy.
It does. That’s how taxes work. Musk’s taxes don’t benefit everyone equally. The server’s taxes will be split, and the portion that goes to their state may be one that a billionaire doesn’t pay into.
But it doesn’t matter since you’ve created a straw man argument. I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said about taxing the rich. You just take exception to me stating that servers also pay taxes for some baffling reason.
How much is that expressed as percentage of his total wealth?
A quick search revealed $185b, which is probably his net worth and not his total wealth, but we’ll go with it:
8.3 / 185 * 100 = ~4.49%
For reference, I paid over 20% of my total wealth last year.
So I actually paid more than 4x as much tax as Musk did, relative to the amount of wealth we have.
If he paid 37 billion dollars in taxes, you would be satisfied? I find “wealth tax” to be completely separate from income tax discussions.
I feel like this was true when cash was more widely used, however, anytime recently I’ve been out it’s always a tip on the card (which they can’t “hide” from the govt).
They don’t really avoid taxes now. Anything tip charged to a card gets taxed. Cash tips might not be claimed but that’s very little for most tipped workers. Additionally tipped workers paid below minimum wage make the employer responsible for making up the difference if they don’t have enough tips reported to avg min wage. That means the employers are very motivated to ensure their employee tips are reported.
Also, even years ago when cash tips were a significant % of tips, being predominantly low wage workers those employees would get virtually all their taxes back after filing a return as well. They wouldn’t get SS taxes back but otherwise for most not reporting tips didn’t amount to a lot of missed taxes. There were some exceptions where people made decent money - maybe high end restaurants and salons - but today with little cash use there aren’t many taxes missed.
They have to report their cash earnings for taxes… Maybe some don’t but most businesses will at least require it.
I never worked at a place that made the servers produce all of their cash tips for accounting purposes. I only knew one server who was claiming everything all the time and it was because she was trying to get a home loan and minimum wage wasn’t going to cut it (most people seemed to claim enough to make just over minimum wage so that they didn’t have to have their paycheck adjusted later).
Well, that’s illegal so 🤷♀️
- Restaurants lobby US government to pay their staff less than minimum wage
- Restaurants tell customers if they want better service, they should tip their server
- Customers begrudgingly begin tipping their servers
- Sexually attractive female servers in their early 20s absolutely destroy, making people think there’s a scam at work (seriously, I’ve seen girls I’ve worked with go on back to back WEEKEND vacations to Cancun on their tips, and I live in Canada, but it’s not a scam, it’s just horny dudes simping for their server)
- People start to complain about tipping culture, seemingly blaming the server for just working a job and not the restaurant owner for paying their staff starvation wages (we are here right now)
- States mandate minimum wage for service industry staff
- Restaurant prices go up to pay for wages but tip culture begins to go away
- Servers are making less money so they go get easier jobs that pay the same (working in a restaurant can be fucking BRUTAL)
- Restaurants hire more and more Indian immigrants, while hard working, are indicative of an even larger societal problem
- Restaurant owners continue to make out like bandits, while customers and staff get shafted.
How’s the customer getting Shafter in this scenario?
While I do tip. It does suck that eating out pretty much requires a donation because we all agree that food workers don’t make enough to live on. And I live in a State where they get full minimum. Just give the workers food and boarding and we can call it a deal, oh wait… Let’s not.
