It’s true, there are significant differences. One is a response to ethnic cleansing and NATO expansion,while the other is a genocidal regime invading its neighbour.
What ethnic cleansing? I’m asking this in good faith, I genuinely don’t know who Ukrainians were trying to eliminate. I’ve vaguely heard that many Cossaks in Eastern Ukraine were pro-Russia because they’d let them have more autonomy, is that what this is about?
Ukraine consists of a number of different ethnic groups. The eastern part of Ukraine used to be Russia before the revolution, and is largely populated by ethnic Russians. After the 2014 coup, eastern parts of Ukraine rebelled and it’s been in a civil war ever since. The slides from this lecture that Mearsheimer gave back in 2015 provide a good background. First, here’s the demographic breakdown of Ukraine:
here’s how the election in 2004 went:
this is the 2010 election:
As we can clearly see from the voting patterns in both elections, the country is divided exactly across the current line of conflict. Furthermore, a survey conducted in 2015 further shows that there is a sharp division between people of eastern and western Ukraine on which economic bloc they would rather belong to:
The civil war has been going on for the 8 years since the coup, and the goal of subjugating the people of Donbass has been openly stated by the regime. For example, here’s Poroshenko saying openly saying that the goal was to terrorize the people into submission. Here’s a clip of CNN reporting on the regime attacking civilians. There’s also a whole documentary with lots of interviews of civilians.
In 2022, LPR and DPR appealed to Russia to intervene, and that’s how the current war started. Incidentally, it’s pretty much modelled on how NATO invaded Yugoslavia when they recognized the autonomy of the separatist regions and intervened on their behalf.
You’re right, Ukraine was just doing some light ethnic cleansing in Donbas that the west was cheering on. At least you lot are consistent in your support for ethnic cleansing and genocide.
The Wikipedia article is a summary of many cited sources. There’s academic ones like The Journal of Genocidal Research. There’s a UN report from the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights. There’s news reports from Reuters and the BBC. There’s a report from the International Court. Though I’m sure you checked the sources before dismissing the article out of hand.
No one is saying that there was zero conflict in Donbas leading up to the invasion. But to label it as “ethnic cleansing” without even acknowledging that this claim is widely disputed internationally is at best irresponsible and at worst deceptive
It’s true, there are significant differences. One is a response to ethnic cleansing and NATO expansion,while the other is a genocidal regime invading its neighbour.
didn’t russia promise ukraines independence?
Ukraine had independence until the west overthrew their democratically elected government in a violent neofascist coup.
Didn’t Israel promise a bunch of similar things to Palestine?
They’re liars
yes, Israel is a bad state and russia is also a bad state
They still do, if the rest of the original treaty is upheld.
What ethnic cleansing? I’m asking this in good faith, I genuinely don’t know who Ukrainians were trying to eliminate. I’ve vaguely heard that many Cossaks in Eastern Ukraine were pro-Russia because they’d let them have more autonomy, is that what this is about?
Ukraine consists of a number of different ethnic groups. The eastern part of Ukraine used to be Russia before the revolution, and is largely populated by ethnic Russians. After the 2014 coup, eastern parts of Ukraine rebelled and it’s been in a civil war ever since. The slides from this lecture that Mearsheimer gave back in 2015 provide a good background. First, here’s the demographic breakdown of Ukraine:
here’s how the election in 2004 went:
this is the 2010 election:
As we can clearly see from the voting patterns in both elections, the country is divided exactly across the current line of conflict. Furthermore, a survey conducted in 2015 further shows that there is a sharp division between people of eastern and western Ukraine on which economic bloc they would rather belong to:
The civil war has been going on for the 8 years since the coup, and the goal of subjugating the people of Donbass has been openly stated by the regime. For example, here’s Poroshenko saying openly saying that the goal was to terrorize the people into submission. Here’s a clip of CNN reporting on the regime attacking civilians. There’s also a whole documentary with lots of interviews of civilians.
In 2022, LPR and DPR appealed to Russia to intervene, and that’s how the current war started. Incidentally, it’s pretty much modelled on how NATO invaded Yugoslavia when they recognized the autonomy of the separatist regions and intervened on their behalf.
mh … that almost sounds like two different things …
Oh there’s ethnic cleansing happening all right…
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/03/russia-ukraine-a-decade-of-suppressing-non-russian-identities-in-occupied-crimea/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_in_Donbas?wprov=sfla1
now do Ukraine 🤡
no, you should do it, because ukraine didn’t invade russia
You’re right, Ukraine was just doing some light ethnic cleansing in Donbas that the west was cheering on. At least you lot are consistent in your support for ethnic cleansing and genocide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_in_Donbas?wprov=sfla1
I love it how people still trot our wikipedia as a source of truth, go read at the sources I’ve provided in this thread
The Wikipedia article is a summary of many cited sources. There’s academic ones like The Journal of Genocidal Research. There’s a UN report from the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights. There’s news reports from Reuters and the BBC. There’s a report from the International Court. Though I’m sure you checked the sources before dismissing the article out of hand.
No one is saying that there was zero conflict in Donbas leading up to the invasion. But to label it as “ethnic cleansing” without even acknowledging that this claim is widely disputed internationally is at best irresponsible and at worst deceptive
lmfao sure thing Vlad
I’m sorry that well documented facts upset you NAFO
would you mind showing me some credible sources?
already have in this very thread