- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
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I really hope they introduce a year of social service. No matter if military, police or healthcare, everyone should experience what it feels to serve society at least once.
An interesting aspect I didn’t think of so far was recently brought by German news influencer LeFloid: It adds people to the mix of police and military that wouldn’t normally be there. The far-left tend to avoid them, while the far-right embraces them. This creates a dangerous imbalance between left and right views in these structures and opens up room for radicalisation.
Correct. (Only it goes both ways - the left do get influenced by that mix during their service.)
Terrible Idea - in Austria many young men do a 9 month long social service instead of military service and many often get treated like shit.
Oh yea I can’t wait to be jailed and fined if i don’t want to be forced to serve for free a country that destroy the environment to mine lignite and sell weapons to saudi arabia.
I’m totally against the military part. It’s just elite people deciding on the lives of people that are not in power. And when the time is right, they’ll take away your freedom of choice and mandate you to join a war. My body my rules.
You can’t have a country without a military to defend it.
That’s why people join the military voluntarily and get paid for it. My statement was only against forced military service.
Anything mandatory generally is ridiculous and counterproductive. By forcing people to do community service won’t necessarily make them better citizens either. E.g. in South Korea, a lot of people got a trauma from it because (extreme) bullying is very present there. There’s a good documentary about it.
Ukraine shows that in time of war conscription is necessary.
But indeed in peaceful and powerful countries it’s usually requested by conservative for the worst reasons possible, and I think it mostly feeds fascism. Community service is mostly the same. It’s forced labour which is akin to slavery. Conservative like those things because they want to teach obedience and respect, but they are idiots.
Still, conscription is necessary in some conditions, and I wouldn’t oppose it on principle. In France it was stopped because it was expensive and no war was in sight. Time changed and we still have atomic bombs, so in this case I guess it’s quite useless.
But then it asks the question of who the army is defending. With conservative, racists and other fascist friends making most of the police and the army I feel like it’s becoming dangerous. Maybe the army should be more representative of all people. But how can you do it without forcing people? And how do you prevent the army from being a corporation with its own interests and views otherwise?
You are confusing concepts. Conscription does not mean bullying needs to be thing. Also ultimately, wars are about numbers and the amount of soldiers(or potential solders) one has, can affect the outcome and actively prevent war.
One of the main reasons Napoleon conquered most of Europe was because he used conscription and had an army of many millions fighting against a few thousand “volunteer” professional armies of other countries.
South Korea absolutely needs conscription. Maybe you are lucky to live in a country that doesnt face a legitimate direct invasion threat. But many, most people arent that lucky.
I’m not confusing things, you’re just taking that argument out of context.
You’re also giving an outdated historic example that doesn’t make sense in the modern world where WMD are everywhere. Those numbers don’t mean anything in case those weapons play a role. Aside from that, there’s also plenty of historic examples where a smaller army won over (much) bigger one. So there’s more factors than just numbers. Location, Intel, weather, firepower, strategy, updated tech are for example other factors that play a crucial role in achieving victory. You can also have a huge number of soldiers and a very incompetent leadership, like Soviet Union showed in the beginning of WWII, which drives number of deaths drastically up. You could said higher numbers also means more disposable men.
Whether SK needs it or not is debatable. You can still encourage people to join the army or contribute to the country’s defense in other ways rather than taking away their freedom and treating them like a puppet and brainwashing them about the importance of it. All in all, a person should have full control over his own choices in life. With a globalized world (and more and more cosmopolitans), the choice to disconnect yourself from a country and move to another one and start a new life is also easier as ever. Something that also wasn’t as easy during Napoleonic time.
You’re also giving an outdated historic example that doesn’t make sense in the modern world where WMD are everywhere. Those numbers don’t mean anything in case those weapons play a role.
Most countries, including Germany, dont have WMDs or even want to have WMDs. Also WMDs are super expensive to acquire and maintain. And then you just need to keep making more and more.
And you have no escalation capability, you either nuke or you dont. So do you use a nuke if someone grabs 100sqm of your land? Especially since they can retaliate with their own nukes? Would you risk getting your entire country nuked for 100sqm?
Or what if 1000 green men just walk into your governmental buildings and occupy them. And they have guns. Do you nuke them? Do you send the police?
Aside from that, there’s also plenty of historic examples where a smaller army won over (much) bigger one.
And for every one of those examples, there are 100000 examples where the numerically superior army won. One of the main reasons that those early ukrainian breakthroughs were possible was because Russia didnt have enough soldiers. Once Russia conscripted more soldiers, they managed to stabilize the situation and build defenses.
One of the reasons Ukraine hasnt won is because instead of being given thousands of tanks and airplanes, they are given a couple dozen.
All in all, a person should have full control over his own choices in life.
So should a person also have the choice of not paying taxes? How about wearing a seatbelt while driving a car? Or wearing clothes when outside. Or wearing a mask.
Protecting your state is one of the most fundamental things you need to adopt, if you have any interest in living in it. And giving some basic education on how to use and maintain a rifle or do some basic guard duty is useful.
With a globalized world (and more and more cosmopolitans), the choice to disconnect yourself from a country and move to another one and start a new life is also easier as ever.
So your argument is “just leave lol”? Even if we ignore reality(people have houses, jobs, friends, environments, societies that they love and no money to move), what will happen if that strongman comes after to where you run? You keep running? Till you run out of space and neohitler has conquered the entire planet?
The main reason that Putin invaded Ukraine was because he thought your attitude was prevalent in the West. Conscription and helping Ukraine are 2 big signals that show to Putin that he was wrong.
Fuck that.
Cool idea, but in practice the left leaning weren’t serving in the military. They were usually taking the civil service route or trying to avoid both by faking disabilities.
Since taking office at the beginning of 2023, Defense Minister Boris Pistorius has been thinking about ways to make the Bundeswehr more attractive as a career.
No amount of money or benefits will ever make me a government’s boot licker. Sorry, not sorry
Maybe you personally. But money would actually solve all their problems.
All they provide today is a shitty job with bad pay and no future prospects.
They are not finding enough soldiers because all these soft modern young adults are too selfish for that job, just like companies find no employees because those spoiled brats are too lazy to work. Obviously none of it has to do with not providing reasonable payments of course. So forced labor is the the proposed solution.
It sounds like you earn too much, or you are projecting. Maybe both. Also, I hope you’re better than them and have already joined the military.
Yeah, sure… I am “projecting” personal experience in the Bundeswehr two decades ago. It was already a shitshow back then with only those with no job prospects anywhere else considering to join (outside some special and very limeted numbers, using their time there to study… but that’s not the bulk of soldiers). It went downhill from there ever since.
Sounds like you didn’t get what they are saying…
So what is the alternative? Let any authoritarian asshole who has managed to convince many boot lickers to join him, take over your country?
cold war 2.0 is as shitty as the first one
TIL they had that.
Austria still does
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Since taking office at the beginning of 2023, Defense Minister Boris Pistorius has been thinking about ways to make the Bundeswehr more attractive as a career.
As journalist and defense and security policy expert Thomas Wiegold told DW: "A major frustration in the Bundeswehr is the bureaucracy.
When Pistorius floated his ideas about conscription in December, he faced a barrage of criticism, including from within his own center-left Social Democratic Party (SPD).
Party co-chair Saskia Esken said it would be impossible to implement mandatory recruitment on an ad hoc basis “because the training units required for this are no longer available.”
“The reintroduction of compulsory service would be a serious encroachment on the freedom of young people who want to orient themselves professionally,” FDP parliamentary group leader Christian Dürr warned in an interview with the Funke Mediengruppe.
“Who would have thought around two years ago that the Bundestag would decide on setting up a special fund of €100 billion for the Bundeswehr against the backdrop of a Russian war of aggression?”
The original article contains 900 words, the summary contains 171 words. Saved 81%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
forced labour is slavery
maybe folks would sign up to protect their country if they thought it deserved to be protected, or was doing anything for them
Do you say the same about jury duty?
In my opinion, as long as the system for who is required to participate is fair and equitable, then it’s fair to consider it a civil duty.
the system for who is required to participate has practically never been fair and equitable, jury duty is not comparable to military service, and forced labour is slavery
civil jury duty is a really weird example to use anyway, since civil jury trials are practically non existent outside the USA
practically never
Soooo… sometimes.
Jury duty is also compulsory labour.
ok
forced labour is slavery
So you’re just doubling down on jury duty is slavery instead of considering a nuanced perspective?
Edit: autocorrect
im assuming you mean nuanced
me not agreeing with you doesnt mean i didnt consider your perspective, and saying ‘well surely not all forced labour is slavery’ isnt nuance
The issue is you’re confusing compulsory labour with forced labour.
If you don’t do conscription or civil service work (the alternative option) the consequences are a fine, or jail. This is the same as eg refusing jury duty or not doing your taxes.
Having compulsory civil duties is not new, nor is it slavery. In countries at high risk of conflict (eg Taiwan), it’s practically required for their continued short-term existence.
I’m not even pro-conscription (for my own nation at this time), but “conscription is slavery” is so reductive, and just stops people discussing the actual pros and cons of the practice.
I didn’t say civil jury duty (I assume you mean for civil trials by that)
I said jury duty, which is a civil duty.
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I do not see compulsory military service as forced labour, not by a long shot.
In my country when a man turns 18, he has to choose either military service (6 months for rank and file, 9 months for specialists or 12 months for specialist drivers and NCO and officer trainees) or civil service (13 months). Third and very seldomly used option is “total denial”, which means you get to spend 6 months in an open jail.
I very reluctantly chose military service, hoping to get the shortest 6 month option. I ended up serving 12 months in the reserve officer training program, so I do have some experience on the matter.
The population of my country is so small that an army based on professional or voluntary troops is not a possibility. Conscription is the only viable choice.
The service was rarely fun, but it was very effective and extremely valuable. The personal growth I experienced during that year was immeasurable and one year of my life is a very small price to pay to this country that my grandparents’ generation paid a very heavy toll to protect. A country that offers equal rights, universal healthcare and free education for all citizens, amongst many other tax-paid services.
If you do not see your own country worth serving, I feel sad for you. I would gladly give my life to protect mine.
I do not see compulsory military service as forced labour, not by a long shot.
performing labour or 6 months of jail does sound completely unforced
A country that offers equal rights, universal healthcare and free education for all citizens, amongst many other tax-paid services.
i am so glad that you have all of that
If you do not see your own country worth serving, I feel sad for you
i said nothing about whether i see my own country as worth serving, but your pity is appreciated
I would gladly give my life to protect mine
and youll continue to have the option to do so regardless of whether your government continues to threaten its citizens into doing so
performing labour or 6 months of jail does sound completely unforced
Forced labour is very different to military training, IMO. Your choices and freedom are restricted - that cannot be denied - but your days are filled with different training excersizes, not labour as I understand it. And I’ve had my fair share of that too, but by my own choice.
i said nothing about whether i see my own country as worth serving, but your pity is appreciated
True. Your earlier statement was ambiguous concerning this. This is why I started the sentence with “if”.
and youll continue to have the option to do so regardless of whether your government continues to threaten its citizens into doing so
Also true. But if I had to defend my country, the most effective way to do it would be as a part of a trained and coordinated effort, not as some loner seeking a Hollywood - style “heroic sacrifice”.
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Could you elaborate on this line of thought?
I cannot tell if you are suggesting a professional standing army or something else entirely.
The number of people who think conscription is just getting ferried to a frontline with a sandwich and a thumbs up is baffling.
I believe it is a good idea, not only will it foster a closer feeling of unity and understanding between citizens, it will also be something all citizens have in common, and something you can talk about with anyone.
I am a bit sad that I never got to do it, I did muster, but failed the hearing test, at the time I was relieved, but now, I miss it sort of.
Being forced to risk your life for something you don’t believe in won’t create a feeling of unity.
So you don’t believe in fighting against invasion by a foregin power?
In what reality would Germany ever get invaded and not deserve it?
Why do you think they deserve it now?
They’re sending weapons to Saudi Arabia and Israel. They put sanctions on Afghanistan that are causing a famine. They’re funding Frontex, which kills migrants in the Mediterranean and those who make it get put into concentration camps. And that’s just some of it. The German government are war criminals and serial human rights abusers. Anyone who takes up arms to defend these people is complicit.
And don’t forget Germany never underwent denazification
While I don’t know how accurate this statement is, I do wonder how you would go about doing it now, so far after the war.
Where would you even start?
What criteria would you use to determine the nazi index of every person, what index value would be the threashhold, who would decide on who is nazi and who is nice.
Ok, I agree with ypu on some of the points, and I can see why you disagree with the actions of the military
So you don’t believe in freedom? Being forced by anyone to give your life for something is slavery.
I absolutely believe in freedom, but I see mandatory military service as a way of supporting the freedom for the rest of the population.
You do your service and hand it off to the next guy, you get skills and training, the country gets huge number of people who know the basics in a real situation.
There are also plenty of tasks in the military that does not require weapons or killing, in a disaster the services are used to support the civilian society, clearing roads, fighting fires, building temporary bridges, distributing water/food/shelter, providing emergency healthcare, setting up communications.
BTW, you use a very narrow definition of slavery.
There are also plenty of tasks in the military that does not require weapons or killing
I’m sure someone in the military is tasked with cooking food for the whole army but in order to teach someone to prepare a meal you don’t put them through mandatory military service which main goal is to bake soldiers capable of shooting on command.
If you believe in forcing everyone with jail as a penalty to learn how to kill people and to obey superior orders you have a narrow definition of freedom.
Freedom is perpetuated through liberty not through constraints
You mention freedom a lot in comparison to military service, but in no society are you completely free, you have laws to follow and you have taxes to pay, so the freedom argument falls a bit flat when you use it so often.
I see military service similar to a tax bill, since if no one wants to do it, the need doesn’t go away, it is still needed, and mandatory military service is s good way to solve it.
You have taxes to pay because someone say so and is forcing everyone with force to pay. If you don’t pay taxes you get labelled as a criminal and the guards come pick you and escort you to jail, even if the tax you don’t want to pay is unjust. If no one wanted to join the military you would have no wars to begin with, russia and israel which are two countries waging war and currently invading another country both have mandatory military service which you get punish if you don’t attend.
People can fight for freedom without being forced through a course that aims at taking away their individuality and self-will to turn them into checkers at rulers commands.
There’s no invasion?
Correct, I am glad you sre keeping up!
My question was hypothetical.
Your question was nonsensical
I disagree.
That’s just dumb. War is good make friends ugh ugh bonk
Technically it is true, war has created plenty of friendships that would not have existed otherwise.
However, that is not what I wrote, I wrote that compulsory millitary service is in general a good idea and that one of benefits is unity and understanding between citizens.
I know, I know, I’m making fun of you
Why are you doing that?
Because you are finding a trivial benefit to something bad and pretending that’s normal. You can go be a scout, have a sports team, a million other things to have camaraderie. But no, you want the fucking military. In a time when everybody is jerking off to war and finding excuses to enact shit you want the army because friends.
Yes you are right on all those points, but the topic was mandatory military service, not scouting, joining a sports team or a million other things.
Is it strange that I focus on the topic of conversation and not list irrelevant topics?
No, not at all, it’s just that you support mandatory military service.
Neither of the other options are mandatory, and the strange thing is that you support the one that is besides being mandatory it is also deadly, if you’re in the system at the wrong time. You think that the possibility of making friends counterweights the high chance of death and life long injuries, and that’s just crazy.
If nobody wants to do the job, maybe the solution is to make it more attractive, instead of making it mandatory.
If you want to bring people together create a program to do such thing. Forcing them into a shooting at people and dropping bombs course is the worst thing you could possibly come up with.
You’re able to refuse active military service and will be put into a civil service position. No one is forced to “shoot at people”.
In your mind perhaps, in my country before they abolished military service you would get fined and sent to jail if you refused to go and they would teach everyone at last once how to shot a gun towards targets made to resemble human beings.
I’m talking about Germany as this article is talking about the potential reintroduced of mandatory military service there.
Again, I said it was a good idea, not the be all end all of bringing people together, that is just one benefit of mandatory service.
You guys are really trying to misunderstand me.
I’m with ya OP.
First world militaries do a hell of a lot more than fight. For example, talking to a young guy at a party last night and the older host. Kid’s a Navy SIGINT guy, host is about to retire from commercial sailing. They got to chatting and the kid had been monitoring threats in the area the host’s ship had passed through in '21.
After Hurricane Ivan the Florida Guard rolled in and saved our asses. After Katrina my ex-FIL led the Mississippi guard into south MS. They cut houses in half to open the roads.
In japan when a tsunami or earthquake hit the yakuza always help the locals, that does not make them any good.
Firefighters are not teach how to attack countries with biological weapons or psyop
