Independent Sen. Bernie Sanders said Sunday he doesn’t know that a ceasefire is possible in the Israel-Hamas war with “an organization like Hamas” involved.
“I don’t know how you can have a ceasefire, (a) permanent ceasefire, with an organization like Hamas, which is dedicated to turmoil and chaos and destroying the state of Israel,” Sanders told CNN’s Dana Bash on “State of the Union” Sunday.
I don’t think peace is possible when one side is holding the other in an open air prison and giving them only the amount of calories needed to not die (after the war started even that was suspended)
Stop calling it a prison, prisons are for convicted criminals, Palestinian’s only crime is being Palestinian. These were open air concentration camps, they are now open air extermination camps
prisons are for convicted criminals,
Always?
No one said the conviction is justified, but yes, convicted.
What is Guantanamo?
A torture camp with no blanket constitutional protections
“Uh it’s just a building with rooms you can’t leave. But it’s not a prison”
Not a prison if that is what you are getting at
Have you ever seen Gaza? I thought it looked more like a city.
Is “open air concentration camps” now a code word for dense urban city?
Honestly this looks like a pretty nice city to me.
It is when trying to leave gets you opened up on by the Israeli air force.
No, a prison is just a facility designed to keep people inside against their will.
Does that change anything?
Hamas is a terrorist organization with strong ties to Iran. We’ve already seen what happens when terrorist groups destabilize countries and take control. Syria is an ongoing testament to that. So is Afghanistan
Are the Israeli Government’s sins the reason why Hamas is in power? The extent is arguable, but it would be a lie to outright say “no”.
But… does that change anything?
Hamas is the power in Gaza. Any form of concessions that don’t involve the destruction of Hamas will be considered a win because the Palestinian people have been held in an open air prison for decades. And that will just lead to Hamas becoming more powerful.
If someone was abused horrifically as a child and decided to get a gun and take it out on others, what do you do? In a just world, you get them the help that they need. But in any world, the first thing you do is take the gun away before they can hurt anyone else.
What that means in this situation? I don’t know. Short of external military intervention, the Israeli government is not going to stand down. And I for one don’t want the US and NATO to fuck around in yet another middle eastern country for another two decades only to leave it considerably worse than we found it.
You realize Israel is controlling the prison in reality, right?
Hamas doesn’t shoot Palestinians that go to far off the coast, Israel does.
Hamas didn’t erect a huge border wall around Gaza, Israel did.
Hamas doesn’t control the supply of food, water, and goods into Gaza. Israel does.
Who controls Gaza?
WRT the wall at least:
Hamas’s goal from securing power in 2007 has been rejecting the two state solution and destroying Israel leading to many many attacks since then so, maybe securing the border isn’t an insane idea? I mean, fuck all good the wall did recently but still.
Hamas doesn’t control the supply of food, water, and goods into Gaza. Israel does.
Slightly amend that one, Egypt also supports the blockade. That being said, it’s not the fault of all the civilians in Gaza that people voted in 2007 to let a terrorist organization take over and things went poorly because of it. This blockade needs to end. Humanitarian aid needs to be able to get to Gaza.
I’m not going to get fully bogged down in the semantics, but Israel still basically controls the Egypt border.
The US forced a vote, didn’t like the outcome, attempted to coup Hamas, and failed. Also, if Hamas is so bad (which they are in many respects), why does Israel fund them and explicitly has a policy of only interacting with them as being the legitimate government?
Easy, they want an unsympathetic enemy that does not want peace. They want to continue the project of taking the rest of Israel for the ethnostate.
I’m overall on board for this comment but how does Israel find Hamas?
It’s a deliberate strategy to divide and conquer and create blowback (Oct 7th)
WRT to your correction about the wall: Hamas’s attacks aren’t because they reject the two-state solution; they’re because of the blockade. The blockade started in 2005 (not 2007 as is popularly believed; that’s when the blockade moved into full force) before Hamas was elected. They withdrew and blockaded the border.
The idea that Israel blockaded Gaza because they of Hamas terrorist attacks is basically Israeli propaganda.
Yes and no, there was a lesser blockade starting in 2005, that’s correct. Then halfway into 2007 after violence broke out between Hamas and Fatah which resulted in the first of Hamas’s civilian executions in Gaza, the current, and more draconian, blockade was instituted.
Which then, you are correct, Hamas responded to the new restrictions by committing another war crime of firing missiles into urban areas.
That’s why it’s yes and no, the original blockade no, the much stricter one that is in effect today was however a direct result of Hamas’s first war crime after being voted into office.
Like quick edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)
This is what caused the blockade that was supposed to be a temporary one to shift to a draconian ongoing one. War crimes.
That Wikipedia article is a mess that sounds like it was written by a high school student. He said, she said, with very few citations.
That’s basically the entire history of the region and current conflict. Everyone is lying, IDF and supporters, Hamas and supporters. You have to treat all of it as the propaganda it is.
There is no one with clean hands over there.
That’s why it’s yes and no, the original blockade no, the much stricter one that is in effect today was however a direct result of Hamas’s first war crime after being voted into office.
Which was a result of the first blockade. You say lesser, and while it was more lenient that doesn’t mean it was fine. Israeli actions in late 2005/2006 destroyed the Gazan economy, and had large destructive effects on the West Bank’s.
I never said it was fine, but no Hamas’s first war crime in Gaza after taking control was not because of the blockade. They straight up publicly executed their political opponents in the Palestinian Authority. You can’t do that and not be labeled terrorists.
But yeah their first war crime in office wasn’t even against Israel, it was against fellow Palestinians.
Hamas and Palestine have no power. Their rejecting or accepting any solution is kinda a ridiculous proposition. It’s an officer offering an inmate a banana. Just give it to them, there’s no need to ask.
At least for #2, you might want to do more research into why hamas doesn’t have prisons in Gaza…
How about we start by defunding Israel, followed by sanctions?
And what does that do about the violent terrorists who have already raped and murdered anyone who had the misfortune of being nearby and have repeatedly said they intend to do the same again?
How does that not increase their power?
All we need to do to reduce the power of Hamas is to stop actively blocking Gazans from importing weapons. Like, the individuals.
Hamas has no internal check, and that’s a big part of why it’s so god awful
So pull a Mexico gun running type operation in Gaza? What could ever go wrong.
All we need to do to reduce the power of Hamas is to stop actively blocking Gazans from importing weapons. Like, the individuals.
Hamas has no internal check, and that’s a big part of why it’s so god awful
It just might force Israel to fucking negotiate the future in good faith, if it no longer felt as if it could continue slow-walking the removal of an entire people from their lands. You are so quick to paint Palestinian violent as barbaric and incomprehensible, yet you ignore the larger scale violence that Israel has been inflicting on Palestine for decades. Bombs from above, collective punishment, punitive control over vital resources, imprisonment and torture of even children! For what? To make more space to house someone descended from ancestors who left that land a thousand years ago?
No. I painted what Hamas did as violent and barbaric and reprehensible. Rape and child killing tends to trigger that.
And you’ll note I even pointed out that a good chunk of why Hamas is in power is BECAUSE of the IDF
Again, we have been down this road. Syria is a hellscape. Afghanistan is a hellscape. When terrorists take control of a nation, it is the people who suffer. And regardless of why they are in power right now: they can’t continue to be in power if the actual welfare of the Palestinian people matters at all.
But hey, maybe this time it will work, right?
Terrorists are in control of Israel. But then, my country does have a long history of financing terrorists, including in those other countries you mention. But hey, maybe this time it will work, right?
you know, you can add raping babies and eating them in your fairy tales. coward you are !
Was that really necessary?
Ok are you talking about Hamas or the Palestinian people? Cause I keep being told they’re different, and that Hamas doesn’t represent Palestinians, yet here you are talking about them as if they’re the same. So which is it? Cause you’re asking me to feel bad for Hamas fighters? Cause I won’t.
I didn’t mention Hamas, I said Israel is oppressing Palestinians and you should feel bad for the nearly 4,000 children that died.
Yeah, that’d be crazy if it was happening.
It would be crazy if you had basic empathy for the almost 4,000 Palestinian children killed
I’m just sick to fucking death of extremists. I didn’t leave the alt-right shithole that’s Reddit to just watch tankie shitheads feign “empathy”. The vast majority of you didn’t give a single, watery shit about any child in the Middle East a month ago.
Israel tried for decades to reach a peaceful two-state solution. Even offering to construct and maintain an elevated highway and rail corridor between Gaza and the West Bank. They even offered a plan where they would have forcefully relocated established Jewish settlements. But none of that was good enough for the Palestinians and Arafat. Ever hear the phrase “from the river to the sea”? If you haven’t, you should look into the history of that.
You won’t catch me saying the IDF is perfect and gargling everything from the Jerusalem Post. But you also won’t find me saying that Gaza is an “open air prison” when they share a border with Egypt, were originally territory of Egypt that Egypt didn’t even want back, and have a coastline on the Mediterranean. All this talk of “genocide” and “open air prison” being caused by Israel is fucking delusional.
Educate yourself on the history of this region from actual historical sources. Start with the citations on Wikipedia if you actually want to know who’s in the right and who’s in the wrong. Don’t go listening to fucking TikTokers or influencers.
Whether you like it or not, Israel tried for decades to reach a peaceful, two-state solution. The Palestinians rejected all plans, even those that had Israel putting its own security in jeopardy. The international community never stepped in to force a peace plan. Israel was abandoned by the world and told to fight with both hands tied behind its back. Is it any wonder that fascists like Netanyahu and Likud were able to come to power in Israel? They tried electing moderates and pursuing peace for years, but all they got was a slap in the face.
If you want true peace in the Middle East, then it’s going to require a massive international military intervention to force a peace; there is no other way. This may shock you, but that intervention would actually be an invasion and occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. So either support that, or shut the fuck up.
The fact that you’re citing Gaza having a coastline as evidence that it’s not an open-air prison, without mentioning that Isreal controls those waters and does not allow Palestinian use of them (aside from small-scale fishing) tell me that you have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about.
Educate yourself before telling people to educate themselves. You’re spouting bullshit and look a fool.
And why does Israel control and inspect what aid they can that enters Gaza? Cause they’re just fucking dicks? Can’t Egypt or the UN just ship in aid from the Egyptian border or with their own naval assets? Why do you think they choose not to?
Educate yourself on how Hamas uses aid material to build rockets to hit Israel. You’re spouting bullshit and making a fool out of yourself.
Ok, so you’re not saying Gaza isn’t an open-air prison, you’re just defending why it should be one. Cool.
Tell me what Israeli news do you watch? I personally watch i24 and regularly keep up with Israeli politics. Do you even know what Kahanism is, who Ben Gavir is, or why so many people (myself included) despise the far right crime minister BB?
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I’m not simply an American who decided to take interest in Israel, I’m Jewish and regularly speak to Israelis. I have heard them openly talking about how civilian deaths are justified and how killing Arabs is ok. Nearly every day I have to suffer through their horrific propaganda. I understand I have everything to gain yet I refuse to gain from the suffering of 9,000 civilian deaths.
That’s good for you. As an American who has spent months in multiple Muslim countries in the Middle East, then let me say this to you.
You and I have common ground in that we would both vehemently and violently condemn the atrocities committed by Israelis. The massacres of Muslims in the past century, attacks by them on their own allies, and the murder and torture of Palestinians by Jewish settlers. Israel has blood on its hands. It’s a failure of righteousness to forget and ignore the atrocities committed by Israel just because they’re an “ally”. Netanyahu, the leadership of Likud, and most of its politicians should be imprisoned for life at the very least.
But, that changes nothing about how ignorant you personally are of history and the situation in the Middle East. I do not have to be an Israeli to read extensively on the history of the region and to understand morality and context. The only morally correct outcome here is a two-state solution. Israel is the the only party in this conflict that has genuinely pursued this solution.
The harsh and vile reality is that some Palestinians have supported peace for decades, but they are ruled over by a majority that opposes peace. There was a geopolitical fork in the road decades ago, and the international community chose the fork where they left “self-determination” up to the violent murderers in charge of Palestine. Israel has an obligation to put the lives of its own citizens over the lives of others; just as you have an obligation to put the lives of anyone you have responsibility for over someone who would take them. It’s tragic that children die. But the greater tragedy is that the UN and other nations could have stopped this decades ago and were too cowardly to do so.
I’m not going to give you a history lesson. It’s up to you to do your own research and come to the right conclusion.
You aren’t wrong, but I can tell you’re smart enough to make your point without rule 3 ad hominem attacks.
Abandoned by the world?! Are you completely removed from reality?
I’m sorry, do you think that America is the sole representative of the world? Are you completely removed from reality?
What a load of horse shit lmao.
cool story bro 😎
👉😎👉
The Likud Party hat that phrase in it’s founding charter: “between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.”
Yes, it was used earlier by the PLO but back then the meaning was more like “take back what was ours”. It was not against the jews, they were there before the founding of Israel. It was against the forced taking of land by creating the state of Israel.
Extremist forces took it further, especially Hamas. But by then the sitation was already complicated enough for an easy solution…
Do you only get you talking points from tankie TikTok?
Person A: “I live in this land, and I will continue living in this land” Person B: “Only I will live in this land, not you”
Does that help your tankie peabrain better understand why it’s genocidal in the way Palestinians use it? Also, depending on how far back you want to go with “before”, the Jews were actually there before the Palestinians. Up until the Romans sold some of them into slavery and then the Muslims came in to finish the job.
Regardless, Likud are extremists and should not be in power. Just like Hamas and the PLO.
I am not your enemy, I’m taking part in a discussion. Also this is my first post in this thread, stop talking like I personally offended you.
I explicitly wrote about the state of Israel and not the Jewish people. So the timeframe of my argument the founding of Israel and the decades after that. Jewish europeans settled there since the end of the 19th century, and for almost half a century it worked. The phrase started being used after that.
Surprise: It’s not. They’re giving them less than the amount they need not to starve.
So, who’s responsibility is it to feed them?
Is it Egypt’s since they were the previous owners of the land before Israel took it in a war started by Egypt? How about the UN? It’s not like they literally have an entire organization whose sole purpose is to provide aid to the Palestinians.
Oh? It’s solely Israel? Israel is solely responsible for the welfare of a people where the majority want to genocide them? Not Egypt or the UN? Not Hamas? Not the PLO? Only Israel?
Either put some fucking pressure on your own country and the UN to step the fuck up and provide real aid, or fuck off.
So, who’s responsibility is it to feed them?
Their military occupiers, Israel. Or maybe the people blockading them and actually controlling how much aid goes in and how much they can import (with their meagre economy since they’re not allowed to export their goods), which is also Israel. Maybe the people who actually created the current situation and actively worked to maintain it so Palestinians can’t have peace—you guessed it, Israel.
Their military occupiers, Israel.
Aside for some areas in North Gaza, Israel doesn’t occupy the Gaza Strip, and hasn’t for decades.
Then why is the Gaza strip considered to be occupied by the UN?
1 nation one vote combine with a European history of hating Jews and Gypsies.
Egypt also could provide help, but for some “strange reason” they do not want. All the countries that cheered on October 7th and supposedly support Palestine, won’t provide any help beyond weapons. They don’t give damn, their goal is to kill Jews, and if Palestinians die in the process, hey that’s “even better”.
I’m sorry, but I think you forgot to read my post and any of the links I sarcastically provided. Let me just copy and paste it below for you. Just trying to help a smoothbrain tankie out since you don’t seem to understand the concepts of the international aid, ports, and land borders.
So, who’s responsibility is it to feed them?
Is it Egypt’s since they were the previous owners of the land before Israel took it in a war started by Egypt? How about the UN? It’s not like they literally have an entire organization whose sole purpose is to provide aid to the Palestinians.
Oh? It’s solely Israel? Israel is solely responsible for the welfare of a people where the majority want to genocide them? Not Egypt or the UN? Not Hamas? Not the PLO? Only Israel?
Either put some fucking pressure on your own country and the UN to step the fuck up and provide real aid, or fuck off.
How about this: It’s solely unrwas responsibility, but anyone who specifically bombs unrwa resources has to take over fully?
How about this. It’s the responsibility of the government in charge, Hamas to consider the feeding and care of it’s citizens as a part of its war plan with its neighbors.
Personally, I think it’s the responsibility of the major powers in the UN. We all contributed to how fucked up this situation is. Even if we didn’t, it’d still be the right thing to do.
I just point this shit out and troll because tankies want to try and put the blame on Israel and get triggered when anyone tries to put the blame on any other country by actually using logic and history. Regardless, providing aid is just the right thing to do and it’s the responsibility of the UNRWA to ensure their services aren’t used by terrorists to support their efforts to kill Israelis.
All aid has to be approved and funneled through Israel. Remember the freedom floatilla?
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Well it’s kind of their responsibility, since you ask, since they’re completely blockading them. Otherwise it’s undeniably genocidal mass starvation.
Removed for rule three. You can disagree without ad hominem attacks.
Remember people,
Hamas != Palestina
Putin’s mafia != Russia
Also with regard to Russians. I work retail, and lately have more and more Russians come in, speaking broken English, very polite, always respectful.
It both warms and breaks my heart to see them. It’s so sad that they’ve left their homeland, but it’s inspiring that they decided they’d rather move across the planet than be puppets to a warlord so deranged as to conscript soldiers.
They always seem a little sheepish. Always like “sorry, sorry” for asking me questions, for taking up my time. I just want to tell them “I’m so glad you’re here! You’re a blessing to me! Stop apologizing please!” but unless they come out and tell me their situation it’s not my place to comment on it.
We’ve got this dim view of “draft dodgers”, but the reality is it takes courage to say no to one’s own government, to put oneself in danger to avoid becoming an armed puppet of someone else’s ambition.
They generally are, but one Russian lady was walking around our downtown and spray painted z on some of our crosswalk push buttons. Some of the other Russians I have met came over long ago to escape Russia or even the USSR and have nothing good to say about it.
I feel waaaay more sorry for my Ukrainian friends and coworkers, particularly my friend’s wife whose family back in Luhansk and Melitopol were bombed and sent to filtration camps. Never heard back from two of her cousins, 16 year old boys.
I don’t think there’s actually a dim view of draft dodgers, just the ones that then try to be war hawk politicians
I keep thinking about “how much responsibility does a people have for its government?”
I’d say that Israel has zero moral claim to blame Gazans for Hamas, for one specific reason: the blockade on weapons into Gaza.
I think that if Gazans’ natural right to arm themselves were respected, it would be a different story. But there is literally no way for the Gazans to depose their ruling junta, because (a) that junta isn’t offering any elections and (b) the means to do it more directly are being denied to them.
Like, I think that we in the USA bear more responsibility for our government than Gazans bear for Hamas, because we have regular elections and we have access to weapons. We have two layers of escape clause from our government; they don’t have any.
I agree Hamas != Palestine. Hamas is just using the Palestinians as hostages. Like a “bodyguard” that you didn’t hire, can’t get to stop following you, and who regularly attacks people then hides behind you.
Natural Right to arn themselves
… holy shit, this is peek shitamericanssay
I agree on the Hamas != Palestine though, but I feel like the citizens of Gaza are not completely without blame in this.
This. In a modern society there’s no natural right (or even a need) to own firearms.
And it’s hard to imagine that Hamas could smuggle weapons, build rockets in basements, set up launchers between apartment blocks, fire missiles and return to step one - if the people of Palestine actually opposed them. But since they are able to do all of this, at least a significant portion of the people must actively support them and basically everyone else needs to tolerate their presence and activities.
Are you then advocating for supplying weapons to Gaza?
Do you feel that would be a wise decision?
Because most Israelis are pissed at their PM for allowing Qatari funding to Gaza and Hamas. I would love to see their reaction to weapons being supplied to them. It would probably look pretty similar to what they are doing now.
You know, I wonder how many people would support guerilla tactics if they were living in the fucking hunger games.
Murdering civilians isn’t ‘guerilla tactics’. It’s not even a useful form of terrorism.
Seems to be working for Bibi.
Let me rephrase that - it’s not a useful form of terrorism for achieving reasonable goals. If one’s goal is to perpetuate a pointless and bloody sectarian conflict so that one can hold onto power over their own people even as the overall prosperity of the nation suffers, I guess murdering civilians is useful.
When killing is mostly or entirely random, all that happens is that the civilian population at large begins to consider themselves (rightly) under threat, and the conflict is perpetuated by mutual fear and spite rather than fear being a means to leverage negotiations or achieving policy.
It really isn’t, he’s so unpopular even the rally around the flag effect hasn’t saved him from regular demands he resign
Honestly probably the same amount of people who’d support carpet bombing Florida if they started firing missiles into neighbouring states.
If you only imagine yourself on one side it’s easy to say the other one is evil but live isn’t that simple really
I mean it is florida after all; I’m not sure the missiles would be necessary.
Nobody would support that,
The combination of swamp gas and meth would turn the entire peninsula into the world’s largest MOAB
The crater would be large enough to expose the fucking mantle
Quite disappointed with Sen. Sanders on this one considering his general stance. Barack Obama had a better understanding here:
How about Israel stop bombing civilians so that Hamas doesn’t get new recruits? Does it really not occur to them that 7000+ civilians killed is going to radicalize more youth. Especially since Gaza’s demographic is mostly youngsters due to past conflicts killing off those who survive for longer.
It’s quite clear that in this conflict, the following people have all the gain: Netanyahu who wants to prolong the war to keep corruption charges and an ouster at bay, by winning favor with Israel conservative fundamentalists; Hamas who successfully intervened when relations were about to be mended with the Saudis, Israel, and a few other countries; Putin, whom the U.S is funding against in the conflict with Ukraine; U.S. war manufacturers that supply the missiles to Israel.
Edit: Fixed some typos and an incorrect negation
Edit2: It’s been pointed out to me that there was a wild misrepresentation of what Sanders said. My faith is restored. Thankfully it was I who foolishly fell for this clickbait.
Quite disappointed with Sen. Sanders on this one
If you ever read a headline about Bernie and are disappointed in what he said, it’s a pretty good chance he said some other stuff too that got left out.
“The immediate task right now is to end the bombing,” Sanders said Sunday, “to end the horrific humanitarian disaster, to build – go forward with the entire world for a two-tier, two-state solution to the crisis to give the Palestinian people hope.”
Just because the headline doesn’t have him also criticizing Netanyahu, doesn’t mean he’s suddenly supporting him.
Agree with you. I was browsing when out on a weekend and fell for the clickbait.
The problem with his idea is that Hamas actively refuses the two state solution and has been doing so violently for decades. That’s their whole thing.
And then you’ve got Netanyahu on the other side. Which… You know
I mean at this point the two state solution is entirely a political fiction. Bibi has seen to it with his support of the settlers in WB.
Only shot now is to fold in everyone and turn it into the Confederation of Jerusalem. Expose the extremists of both sides to electoral accountability from the tired masses they try to demonize now that they’re voting members of the public too.
The CNN article seems to be cherry-picking his statements. This is his op-ed on the topic which is much more in-depth:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/01/gaza-humanitarian-pause-bernie-sanders
I mean, at this point, just stopping the bombing isn’t going to stop giving Hamas recruits, because people will remember the bombings and other things already done, and will remember for a long time, and Hamas is certainly going to milk them for all they can get. Continuing the bombing makes things much worse of course, but just stopping by itself isn’t all that’s needed for peace, just the start. Which is what I suspect he’s getting at based on some of the context other people have replied, a cease-fire that just returns things to how they were before the current elevated level of conflict isn’t viable, because the same conditions would exist that led to what is going on now, and so it would just happen again sometime later.
Gaza doesn’t have a young population because the old people died in fighting, Gaza has a young population because its birth rate is insane.
Stupid old fart, and to think I was sad whes they sidelined him to push Biden for president…
How 'bout we try it and see - what do we have to lose?
Innocent human lives. (Which the Jsraeli government is of course also carelessly discarding. But that’s why I think Sanders’ position is the most reasonable. We should definitely demand Israel greatly reduce the military force it’s exerting, but a total ceasefire might not be entirely realistic)
We lose “innicent human lives” in a ceasefire attempt? The killing will increase?
Also you really don’t need to reiterate a very obvious typo. Ideally the goal here should be to have some form of dialogue that works towards the goal of understanding each other better and increasing knowledge, not ridiculing each other. It’s pretty poor form imo.
If I were going to correct what you got wrong when quoting you, I could just swap your post with my own.
Ok, so you’re not imterested in sincere dialogue. Have a good day then.
Wouldn’t misquoting you be the insincerity?
What’s your proposal to reduce civilian casualties more than a ceasefire would? Seems like an impossibility to me.
The question you’re asking implies a decrease during the ceasefire which is of course a near certainty however in the time scale of the total conflict it’s very possible that the total number of civilian casualties will increase.
Hamas will use the time to move troops, stock defences, replenish supplies and plant IEDs - this will prolong the war and make fighting more difficult resulting in more rockets and bombs and thus more potential civilian life loss.
Decisive victory can often be less brutal than lingering conflict, especially with logistical considerations like in Gaza.
What’s the better solution? Continuing to bomb refugee camps and hospitals in an incredibly densely populated area where 45% of the people are children and food, water, power, fuel, and movement have all been stopped doesn’t seem great to me.
Imagine a comic strip where the Joker is holding a kid hostage at gunpoint. With his other gun he repeatedly shoots random people on the street. Batman shows up but does nothing, for he doesn’t want the boy to die. Bam, another passerby dead. And another. Bam-bam, this time it’s a twofer. Then Superman shows up and eye-lasers the Joker cleanly in half along with the kid.
Whose action resulted in fewer deaths?
Pretty poor analogy when superman has propped up the Joker (Hamas) over the pacifist Harley Quinn (PLO) while being pretty open about wanting to genocide Arkham asylum (Palestine) - you think they might have done that to create a pretext for what’s currently playing out?, and has operated Arkham as a concentration camp, constantly killing its innocent residents and taking over more of it, blowing up refugee camps, hospitals, apartment blocks, you name it, while eye lasering 20-500x the number of bystanders the Joker is killing (depending on the stats you choose). Superman is also a nuclear power with a modern military and f35s - the Joker has small arms and a paraglider.
So far, Israel has killed over 11,000 people in a population that’s 45% kids - statistically, that points to them killing 55 Hamas members and 5,000 children (and plenty more adult civilians). Even if they’re 10x more effective than that, it’s still 10 dead kids for every dead Hamas member.
Who is the bad guy again? Feel free to look at the kill count over the past few decades of that helps.
Thanks for the non-dismissive reply and for the additional context. Just to clarify, I have only voiced my view on the “avoid killing innocents when others are in danger” situation - I admittedly lack the knowledge regarding the big picture to be able to pass judgement or offer solutions. But it seems the answer to your last question is pretty clear: everybody involved in this situation in any way is bad for some degree.
So just wait a few days for Hamas to dig in then do the same?
How are Hamas going to dig in to a more meaningful extent with a few days’ respite from Israel’s attacks on Palestine? It’s not as though the IDF is making so much as a token effort to avoid killing Palestinian children and civilians.
B-but Hamas is a pretty poor excuse for killing thousands of children.
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Well not compared to the current situation, but that it would possibly be an increase compared to the most civilian sparing scenario. Obviously the situation should be deescalated to the maximum amount possible, but I don’t think it’s a realistic scenario to assume that if the current main aggressor (Israel) were to cease military action completely, no more civilian lives would be lost.
What’s your proposal to reduce civilian casualties more than a ceasefire would?
Last time ignoring Hamas ended up costing 1033 dead civilians and more than 3000 wounded. And anyone that thinks that Hamas wouldn’t do worse war crimes in retaliation if the situations were inverted is deluding themselves.
Peace is not possible while Hamas has any power (the same being true for lots of Israeli organizations but this escalation is entirely on Hamas).
1033 dead civilians and more than 3000 wounded
Only counting one side i see…
Seriously. Like, Israel’s retaliation was warranted against Hamas. But the innocent Palestinians caught in the crossfire, especially the children, is unjustified in every way.
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Feel free to share the rapidly increasing number of Palestinian civilians Israel have killed - I’d encourage you to break out the number of children they’ve killed too, knowing they make up 45% of the population Israel are indiscriminately bombing whole shouting genocidal language (and pandering to the US press in English word supposedly talking to Palestinians).
Ignoring Hamas? You mean actively committing genocide and bombing infrastructure in Gaza made a freedom fighting army stronger? Yo that’s crazy. You should tell people about the Jews that tried to resist Hitler. Must have been very violent terrorists according to your logic.
Who is proposing ignoring Hamas? It’s a ceasefire - not a new concept, and certainly not one that depends on ignoring the counterparty to that ceasefire.
Israel has been the primary aggressor here for decades, and unless I’m mistaken, has propped up Hamas over the more secular, reasonable PLO tp establish this pretext for the genocide they’re now attempting to carry out.
Hamas are murderous jihadis, but they’re a product of Israel’s hostility and decisions to prop them up. Hamas are armed with small arms and a paraglider, Israel has a nuclear arsenal and F-35s. Depending on the count you use, over the past few decades, Palestinian casualties have outnumbered Israeli casualties between dozens to one and 500:1. The UN has called Israel’s management of Palestine an open air concentration camp, and we’ve seen Israel’s response to the Hamas attack has already carelessly killed many more times more people - particularly children than Hamas did - they’ve shut off food, water, and supplies, they’ve shut down movement, they’ve pushed them out of their homes, they’ve bombed hospitals and refugee camps.
Who is the overwhelming military force that’s killing all the innocent civilians here? But yeah - Hamas are escalating this.
You want to defend Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, the Nazis, Chinese expansionism, and the US war on terror while you’re at it with the monstrous shit takes, my dude?
what am I going to put in my pitas now?
I suppose it depends on whether or not you’re a member of the IDF leadership - there’s plenty of kids (mostly Palestinian) that have been reduced to a paste.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
As Israel continues its fourth week of intense bombardment of the besieged Gaza strip, huge crowds of protesters have gathered to call for a ceasefire in Washington, D.C. as well as in other capital cities around the globe.
Israeli airstrikes have targeted hospitals, schools, refugee camps and ambulances, sparking outrage from the international community and warnings from rights groups that the strikes may constitute war crimes.
Israel maintains it does not target civilians and its attacks on the strip are intended to eradicate Hamas, the militant Islamist organization that governs Gaza and is considered a terrorist group by the US and EU among other countries.
While the Biden administration has consistently advocated for humanitarian pauses to facilitate getting fuel into the war-torn strip and getting civilians out, Secretary of State Antony Blinken remains opposed to a ceasefire, arguing that it would give Hamas time to regroup and launch another attack on Israel.
In recent weeks, she has roiled some of her colleagues determined to present a united front amid the Israel-Hamas war as divisions have grown more personal.
The video – which features images of protests with chants of “Free Palestine” and ‘From the river to the sea” across Michigan, California, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Illinois and New York – ends with text that states: “Joe Biden supported the genocide of the Palestinian people,” “The American people won’t forget,” “Biden, support the ceasefire now,” and “Or don’t count on us in 2024.”
The original article contains 514 words, the summary contains 229 words. Saved 55%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Blink twice if you are been kidnapped
Honestly this is the most coherent take Sanders has had on Israel this decade.
Category section of Bernie’s wikipage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders
so, you know Bernie, fuck you.
If your reaction to something Bernie said or did is “fuck you”, you should read more. He said that the bombings need to stop ASAP, then the whole world needs to help things progress to a two-state solution.
“I don’t know how you can have a ceasefire, (a) permanent ceasefire, with an organization like Hamas, which is dedicated to turmoil and chaos and destroying the state of Israel,
This is pretty clear to me. this fallacy of saying “destroying the state of Israel”, which is
- impossible - this a high-end military state
- this is Israel which is fucking destroying palestine, there is no more factual than this.
- hamas* or whatever you call it today is just “replying” to this fact
As far as I know, this is not Israeli which get their water/food/electricity/movement/borders controlled, this is not Israeli under the bombs, this is not Israeli moving to the south…
So Bernie… we can’t even talk kind of chessmaster rhetoric (“ya know, he critics Israel behind”), this is pure cowardice if not dishonesty (by its affiliation)
*cause of course, Isreal is creating generation of - legit - haters
He kind of has a point. The idea that a permanent ceasefire with Hamas is impossible has some merit. The keyword here is permanent, that any ceasefire will eventually collapse and lead to this situation happening again. Then he clarifies what should be done instead.
I don’t agree with him on this point, don’t get me wrong, but the point seems to be that a return to pre-Oct 7 conditions won’t do any favors for everybody. He says this too in the article:
“The immediate task right now is to end the bombing,” Sanders said Sunday, “to end the horrific humanitarian disaster, to build – go forward with the entire world for a two-tier, two-state solution to the crisis to give the Palestinian people hope.”
That’s a pretty agreeable position.
Again, you are ignoring the context. This is not Hamas - or whatever you call it today - a population is getting decimated on a faster pace right now! 7 Oct was tragic (still, not everything has been investigated yet and we know Israeli’s trend to inflate shit) but it CAN’T be drawn as a sacred milestone which could erase all the previous and atrocious forfeits, should I say “crimes”, committed by Israel.
I mean he says the bombing needs to end and has voted as much in the Senate… He’s definitely not claiming Israel is in any way innocent.
We’re falling into the trap of “Do you condemn Hamas” here. Not any mention of Hamas needs to be accompanied by a condemnation of Israel, just as not every mention of Israel needs to come with a condemnation of Hamas.
We’re falling into the trap of “Do you condemn Hamas” here.
Not at all, I see what you mean but no. The “relation” is irrelevant here. Who has the power, the control and who is dying?
That’s such a simplistic view though, how long would you ignore a country firing missiles at you and sneaking in to kill civilians? Israel spent staggering sums on defensive security rather than just carpet bombing and still they find ways to kill Israelies.
And they always will, the leader of Hamas went to Iran again the other day to talk about further support that Iran can give them - they already train Palestinian fighters, supply them with missiles, scuba suits, paragliders, and tunnel making equipment. This isn’t just a small city being bullied it’s a proxy war, and yeah there are people in Palestine who don’t support Hamas but it’s not just Israel that’s too blame for their bad experience - fundamentalist despots need them to be there suffering and dying so they can have a reason to keep attacking Israel, so they can hold Israel up as a bogeyman to cement their power at home.
This isn’t a simple situation, Israel can’t just stop fighting and tear down it’s walls.
