Independent Sen. Bernie Sanders said Sunday he doesn’t know that a ceasefire is possible in the Israel-Hamas war with “an organization like Hamas” involved.
“I don’t know how you can have a ceasefire, (a) permanent ceasefire, with an organization like Hamas, which is dedicated to turmoil and chaos and destroying the state of Israel,” Sanders told CNN’s Dana Bash on “State of the Union” Sunday.
I don’t think peace is possible when one side is holding the other in an open air prison and giving them only the amount of calories needed to not die (after the war started even that was suspended)
Stop calling it a prison, prisons are for convicted criminals, Palestinian’s only crime is being Palestinian. These were open air concentration camps, they are now open air extermination camps
Always?
No one said the conviction is justified, but yes, convicted.
What is Guantanamo?
A torture camp with no blanket constitutional protections
“Uh it’s just a building with rooms you can’t leave. But it’s not a prison”
Not a prison if that is what you are getting at
Have you ever seen Gaza? I thought it looked more like a city.
Is “open air concentration camps” now a code word for dense urban city?
Honestly this looks like a pretty nice city to me.
It is when trying to leave gets you opened up on by the Israeli air force.
No, a prison is just a facility designed to keep people inside against their will.
Does that change anything?
Hamas is a terrorist organization with strong ties to Iran. We’ve already seen what happens when terrorist groups destabilize countries and take control. Syria is an ongoing testament to that. So is Afghanistan
Are the Israeli Government’s sins the reason why Hamas is in power? The extent is arguable, but it would be a lie to outright say “no”.
But… does that change anything?
Hamas is the power in Gaza. Any form of concessions that don’t involve the destruction of Hamas will be considered a win because the Palestinian people have been held in an open air prison for decades. And that will just lead to Hamas becoming more powerful.
If someone was abused horrifically as a child and decided to get a gun and take it out on others, what do you do? In a just world, you get them the help that they need. But in any world, the first thing you do is take the gun away before they can hurt anyone else.
What that means in this situation? I don’t know. Short of external military intervention, the Israeli government is not going to stand down. And I for one don’t want the US and NATO to fuck around in yet another middle eastern country for another two decades only to leave it considerably worse than we found it.
You realize Israel is controlling the prison in reality, right?
Hamas doesn’t shoot Palestinians that go to far off the coast, Israel does.
Hamas didn’t erect a huge border wall around Gaza, Israel did.
Hamas doesn’t control the supply of food, water, and goods into Gaza. Israel does.
Who controls Gaza?
WRT the wall at least:
Hamas’s goal from securing power in 2007 has been rejecting the two state solution and destroying Israel leading to many many attacks since then so, maybe securing the border isn’t an insane idea? I mean, fuck all good the wall did recently but still.
Slightly amend that one, Egypt also supports the blockade. That being said, it’s not the fault of all the civilians in Gaza that people voted in 2007 to let a terrorist organization take over and things went poorly because of it. This blockade needs to end. Humanitarian aid needs to be able to get to Gaza.
I’m not going to get fully bogged down in the semantics, but Israel still basically controls the Egypt border.
The US forced a vote, didn’t like the outcome, attempted to coup Hamas, and failed. Also, if Hamas is so bad (which they are in many respects), why does Israel fund them and explicitly has a policy of only interacting with them as being the legitimate government?
Easy, they want an unsympathetic enemy that does not want peace. They want to continue the project of taking the rest of Israel for the ethnostate.
I’m overall on board for this comment but how does Israel find Hamas?
Through Qatar: https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/israel-helped-funnel-qatar-money-to-fund-hamas-netanyahu-palestinian-state-gaza-war-2456157-2023-11-01
It’s a deliberate strategy to divide and conquer and create blowback (Oct 7th)
WRT to your correction about the wall: Hamas’s attacks aren’t because they reject the two-state solution; they’re because of the blockade. The blockade started in 2005 (not 2007 as is popularly believed; that’s when the blockade moved into full force) before Hamas was elected. They withdrew and blockaded the border.
The idea that Israel blockaded Gaza because they of Hamas terrorist attacks is basically Israeli propaganda.
Yes and no, there was a lesser blockade starting in 2005, that’s correct. Then halfway into 2007 after violence broke out between Hamas and Fatah which resulted in the first of Hamas’s civilian executions in Gaza, the current, and more draconian, blockade was instituted.
Which then, you are correct, Hamas responded to the new restrictions by committing another war crime of firing missiles into urban areas.
That’s why it’s yes and no, the original blockade no, the much stricter one that is in effect today was however a direct result of Hamas’s first war crime after being voted into office.
Like quick edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)
This is what caused the blockade that was supposed to be a temporary one to shift to a draconian ongoing one. War crimes.
That Wikipedia article is a mess that sounds like it was written by a high school student. He said, she said, with very few citations.
That’s basically the entire history of the region and current conflict. Everyone is lying, IDF and supporters, Hamas and supporters. You have to treat all of it as the propaganda it is.
There is no one with clean hands over there.
Which was a result of the first blockade. You say lesser, and while it was more lenient that doesn’t mean it was fine. Israeli actions in late 2005/2006 destroyed the Gazan economy, and had large destructive effects on the West Bank’s.
I never said it was fine, but no Hamas’s first war crime in Gaza after taking control was not because of the blockade. They straight up publicly executed their political opponents in the Palestinian Authority. You can’t do that and not be labeled terrorists.
But yeah their first war crime in office wasn’t even against Israel, it was against fellow Palestinians.
Oh you’re talking about that. Yeah that’s just indefensible, but I don’t see how that meant a permanent blockade was the right move. It was nothing short of pure tyranny.
Also, how was the blockade supposed to be temporary? It lasted for more than a year and a half and showed no signs of being lifted. It only seems to me like Israel took the chance to tighten the blockade.
Hamas and Palestine have no power. Their rejecting or accepting any solution is kinda a ridiculous proposition. It’s an officer offering an inmate a banana. Just give it to them, there’s no need to ask.
At least for #2, you might want to do more research into why hamas doesn’t have prisons in Gaza…
How about we start by defunding Israel, followed by sanctions?
And what does that do about the violent terrorists who have already raped and murdered anyone who had the misfortune of being nearby and have repeatedly said they intend to do the same again?
How does that not increase their power?
All we need to do to reduce the power of Hamas is to stop actively blocking Gazans from importing weapons. Like, the individuals.
Hamas has no internal check, and that’s a big part of why it’s so god awful
So pull a Mexico gun running type operation in Gaza? What could ever go wrong.
All we need to do to reduce the power of Hamas is to stop actively blocking Gazans from importing weapons. Like, the individuals.
Hamas has no internal check, and that’s a big part of why it’s so god awful
It just might force Israel to fucking negotiate the future in good faith, if it no longer felt as if it could continue slow-walking the removal of an entire people from their lands. You are so quick to paint Palestinian violent as barbaric and incomprehensible, yet you ignore the larger scale violence that Israel has been inflicting on Palestine for decades. Bombs from above, collective punishment, punitive control over vital resources, imprisonment and torture of even children! For what? To make more space to house someone descended from ancestors who left that land a thousand years ago?
No. I painted what Hamas did as violent and barbaric and reprehensible. Rape and child killing tends to trigger that.
And you’ll note I even pointed out that a good chunk of why Hamas is in power is BECAUSE of the IDF
Again, we have been down this road. Syria is a hellscape. Afghanistan is a hellscape. When terrorists take control of a nation, it is the people who suffer. And regardless of why they are in power right now: they can’t continue to be in power if the actual welfare of the Palestinian people matters at all.
But hey, maybe this time it will work, right?
Terrorists are in control of Israel. But then, my country does have a long history of financing terrorists, including in those other countries you mention. But hey, maybe this time it will work, right?
you know, you can add raping babies and eating them in your fairy tales. coward you are !
Was that really necessary?
Ok are you talking about Hamas or the Palestinian people? Cause I keep being told they’re different, and that Hamas doesn’t represent Palestinians, yet here you are talking about them as if they’re the same. So which is it? Cause you’re asking me to feel bad for Hamas fighters? Cause I won’t.
I didn’t mention Hamas, I said Israel is oppressing Palestinians and you should feel bad for the nearly 4,000 children that died.
Yeah, that’d be crazy if it was happening.
It would be crazy if you had basic empathy for the almost 4,000 Palestinian children killed
I’m just sick to fucking death of extremists. I didn’t leave the alt-right shithole that’s Reddit to just watch tankie shitheads feign “empathy”. The vast majority of you didn’t give a single, watery shit about any child in the Middle East a month ago.
Israel tried for decades to reach a peaceful two-state solution. Even offering to construct and maintain an elevated highway and rail corridor between Gaza and the West Bank. They even offered a plan where they would have forcefully relocated established Jewish settlements. But none of that was good enough for the Palestinians and Arafat. Ever hear the phrase “from the river to the sea”? If you haven’t, you should look into the history of that.
You won’t catch me saying the IDF is perfect and gargling everything from the Jerusalem Post. But you also won’t find me saying that Gaza is an “open air prison” when they share a border with Egypt, were originally territory of Egypt that Egypt didn’t even want back, and have a coastline on the Mediterranean. All this talk of “genocide” and “open air prison” being caused by Israel is fucking delusional.
Educate yourself on the history of this region from actual historical sources. Start with the citations on Wikipedia if you actually want to know who’s in the right and who’s in the wrong. Don’t go listening to fucking TikTokers or influencers.
Whether you like it or not, Israel tried for decades to reach a peaceful, two-state solution. The Palestinians rejected all plans, even those that had Israel putting its own security in jeopardy. The international community never stepped in to force a peace plan. Israel was abandoned by the world and told to fight with both hands tied behind its back. Is it any wonder that fascists like Netanyahu and Likud were able to come to power in Israel? They tried electing moderates and pursuing peace for years, but all they got was a slap in the face.
If you want true peace in the Middle East, then it’s going to require a massive international military intervention to force a peace; there is no other way. This may shock you, but that intervention would actually be an invasion and occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. So either support that, or shut the fuck up.
The fact that you’re citing Gaza having a coastline as evidence that it’s not an open-air prison, without mentioning that Isreal controls those waters and does not allow Palestinian use of them (aside from small-scale fishing) tell me that you have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about.
Educate yourself before telling people to educate themselves. You’re spouting bullshit and look a fool.
And why does Israel control and inspect what aid they can that enters Gaza? Cause they’re just fucking dicks? Can’t Egypt or the UN just ship in aid from the Egyptian border or with their own naval assets? Why do you think they choose not to?
Educate yourself on how Hamas uses aid material to build rockets to hit Israel. You’re spouting bullshit and making a fool out of yourself.
Ok, so you’re not saying Gaza isn’t an open-air prison, you’re just defending why it should be one. Cool.
Tell me what Israeli news do you watch? I personally watch i24 and regularly keep up with Israeli politics. Do you even know what Kahanism is, who Ben Gavir is, or why so many people (myself included) despise the far right crime minister BB?
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I’m not simply an American who decided to take interest in Israel, I’m Jewish and regularly speak to Israelis. I have heard them openly talking about how civilian deaths are justified and how killing Arabs is ok. Nearly every day I have to suffer through their horrific propaganda. I understand I have everything to gain yet I refuse to gain from the suffering of 9,000 civilian deaths.
That’s good for you. As an American who has spent months in multiple Muslim countries in the Middle East, then let me say this to you.
You and I have common ground in that we would both vehemently and violently condemn the atrocities committed by Israelis. The massacres of Muslims in the past century, attacks by them on their own allies, and the murder and torture of Palestinians by Jewish settlers. Israel has blood on its hands. It’s a failure of righteousness to forget and ignore the atrocities committed by Israel just because they’re an “ally”. Netanyahu, the leadership of Likud, and most of its politicians should be imprisoned for life at the very least.
But, that changes nothing about how ignorant you personally are of history and the situation in the Middle East. I do not have to be an Israeli to read extensively on the history of the region and to understand morality and context. The only morally correct outcome here is a two-state solution. Israel is the the only party in this conflict that has genuinely pursued this solution.
The harsh and vile reality is that some Palestinians have supported peace for decades, but they are ruled over by a majority that opposes peace. There was a geopolitical fork in the road decades ago, and the international community chose the fork where they left “self-determination” up to the violent murderers in charge of Palestine. Israel has an obligation to put the lives of its own citizens over the lives of others; just as you have an obligation to put the lives of anyone you have responsibility for over someone who would take them. It’s tragic that children die. But the greater tragedy is that the UN and other nations could have stopped this decades ago and were too cowardly to do so.
I’m not going to give you a history lesson. It’s up to you to do your own research and come to the right conclusion.
You aren’t wrong, but I can tell you’re smart enough to make your point without rule 3 ad hominem attacks.
Abandoned by the world?! Are you completely removed from reality?
I’m sorry, do you think that America is the sole representative of the world? Are you completely removed from reality?
What a load of horse shit lmao.
cool story bro 😎
👉😎👉
The Likud Party hat that phrase in it’s founding charter: “between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.”
Yes, it was used earlier by the PLO but back then the meaning was more like “take back what was ours”. It was not against the jews, they were there before the founding of Israel. It was against the forced taking of land by creating the state of Israel.
Extremist forces took it further, especially Hamas. But by then the sitation was already complicated enough for an easy solution…
Do you only get you talking points from tankie TikTok?
Person A: “I live in this land, and I will continue living in this land” Person B: “Only I will live in this land, not you”
Does that help your tankie peabrain better understand why it’s genocidal in the way Palestinians use it? Also, depending on how far back you want to go with “before”, the Jews were actually there before the Palestinians. Up until the Romans sold some of them into slavery and then the Muslims came in to finish the job.
Regardless, Likud are extremists and should not be in power. Just like Hamas and the PLO.
I am not your enemy, I’m taking part in a discussion. Also this is my first post in this thread, stop talking like I personally offended you.
I explicitly wrote about the state of Israel and not the Jewish people. So the timeframe of my argument the founding of Israel and the decades after that. Jewish europeans settled there since the end of the 19th century, and for almost half a century it worked. The phrase started being used after that.
Surprise: It’s not. They’re giving them less than the amount they need not to starve.
So, who’s responsibility is it to feed them?
Is it Egypt’s since they were the previous owners of the land before Israel took it in a war started by Egypt? How about the UN? It’s not like they literally have an entire organization whose sole purpose is to provide aid to the Palestinians.
Oh? It’s solely Israel? Israel is solely responsible for the welfare of a people where the majority want to genocide them? Not Egypt or the UN? Not Hamas? Not the PLO? Only Israel?
Either put some fucking pressure on your own country and the UN to step the fuck up and provide real aid, or fuck off.
Their military occupiers, Israel. Or maybe the people blockading them and actually controlling how much aid goes in and how much they can import (with their meagre economy since they’re not allowed to export their goods), which is also Israel. Maybe the people who actually created the current situation and actively worked to maintain it so Palestinians can’t have peace—you guessed it, Israel.
Aside for some areas in North Gaza, Israel doesn’t occupy the Gaza Strip, and hasn’t for decades.
Then why is the Gaza strip considered to be occupied by the UN?
1 nation one vote combine with a European history of hating Jews and Gypsies.
That’s… well… an original opinion, at least.
Egypt also could provide help, but for some “strange reason” they do not want. All the countries that cheered on October 7th and supposedly support Palestine, won’t provide any help beyond weapons. They don’t give damn, their goal is to kill Jews, and if Palestinians die in the process, hey that’s “even better”.
I’m sorry, but I think you forgot to read my post and any of the links I sarcastically provided. Let me just copy and paste it below for you. Just trying to help a smoothbrain tankie out since you don’t seem to understand the concepts of the international aid, ports, and land borders.
How about this: It’s solely unrwas responsibility, but anyone who specifically bombs unrwa resources has to take over fully?
How about this. It’s the responsibility of the government in charge, Hamas to consider the feeding and care of it’s citizens as a part of its war plan with its neighbors.
Given that the plans that government arranged for are being thwarted by Israel, it seems they are taking steps to reassert their ability to feed their people. I don’t think that’s the best solution here, that Hamas keeps attacking Israel, so I’m looking elsewhere. If you’re content with the way Hamas handles things, by all means, leave them with no humanitarian support or other options.
Personally, I think it’s the responsibility of the major powers in the UN. We all contributed to how fucked up this situation is. Even if we didn’t, it’d still be the right thing to do.
I just point this shit out and troll because tankies want to try and put the blame on Israel and get triggered when anyone tries to put the blame on any other country by actually using logic and history. Regardless, providing aid is just the right thing to do and it’s the responsibility of the UNRWA to ensure their services aren’t used by terrorists to support their efforts to kill Israelis.
All aid has to be approved and funneled through Israel. Remember the freedom floatilla?
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Well it’s kind of their responsibility, since you ask, since they’re completely blockading them. Otherwise it’s undeniably genocidal mass starvation.
Removed for rule three. You can disagree without ad hominem attacks.