I’ve spent the last few years devouring Soviet history. Books, papers, blog posts, podcasts, all of it. I can’t get enough. Not to brag, but I do feel as though I’ve achieved a certain level of understanding about the USSR, its history, and eventual collapse. But I’ve also put the work in.
And yet, whenever I engage people I know IRL or online, I’m amazed by how doggedly people will defend what they just inherently “know”: that the Soviet Union was an evil totalitarian authority dictatorship that killed 100 million of its own people and eventually collapsed because communism never works. None of these people (at least the people I know IRL) have learned anything about Soviet history beyond maybe a couple days of lectures and a textbook chapter in high school history classes. Like, I get that this is the narrative that nearly every American holds in their heads. The fact that people believe this isn’t surprising. But what is a little surprising to me is that, when confronted with a challenge to that narrative from someone they know has always loved history and has bothered to learn more, they dig their heels in and insist they are right and I am wrong.
This isn’t about me, I’m just sharing my experience with this. I’m just amazed at how Americans will be completely ignorant about a topic (not just the USSR) but will be utterly convinced their views on that topic are correct, despite their own lack of investigation into that topic. This is the same country where tens of millions of people think dinosaurs and humans walked around together and will not listen to what any “scientist” has to say about it, after all.
americans are some of the only people in the world who genuinely believe their country’s founding myths
That’s obviously untrue.
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Do they really know that stuff, though?
If they were truly aware, they’d tear down that evil fucking monstrosity and rebuild something better.
Like, that shit was worse than Nazi Germany. And no one even suggests doing the bare minimum and tearing up the constitution and demolishing the government?
I suggest they “know” of it, but are purposefully kept from actually examining what any of that really means and how it relates to their lives.
The only difference between Manifest Destiny and Lebensraum is that the former was successful
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All of that stuff is still happening today and burying it as “in the past” is EXACTLY what I mean when I say it’s unexamined.
Let this sink in. The US is what you’d get if Nazi Germany stood for 250 years. The corrupt fascist heart still beats at the center, and it drives every decision this country makes.
It is NOT in the past.
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source
If Hitler had been successful in Eastern Europe, leaders and politicians today would be talking about them the same way we talk about American native groups. “Sure, what a tragedy it is, but that’s all in the past now! We had to ensure that civilization and order spread across the region! There were some unfortunate casualties, but the number of graves show that it was relatively minimal, and those camps were merely for labor, not extermination! Look, how about we do a minute of silence out of remembrance of the people who used to stand where we’re building this next mall? That’s good enough, right?”
America is the prototypical example of a fascist state that won. “But they aren’t doing that anymore!” No shit, most of them are dead. And, as Awoo states below, the government still is oppressing what remains of indigeneous communities.
Where do you think they learned their tactics? They got the idea of their concentration camps from the US reservation system, a system that still exists and still operates much like concentration camps, in an ongoing genocide on the people who’s land you are talking about were not all “wiped out” they are still here and the genocide is still happening.
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How come you didn’t reply at all to the comment with all sorts of stats about how the state continues to oppress the indigenous?
It’s literally not a stretch, in his memoirs Hitler refers to the taking of Eastern Europe as his ‘Manifest Destiny’ and the clearing of the slavs as the clearing of his ‘removedskins’. He mostly thought that the U…S. wasn’t thorough enough, with the Boer War encampments being the direct experience that the S.S. would draw from to create the concentration camps.
It’s not ‘today’s’ reservations, because there was a major reformation and native rights movement that was tied into the larger civil rights movement in the 1960’s, with it’s own occupation movements, marches and sabotage groups, which I am sure you know about.
However, what is always interesting to me is that they only started winning cases and gaining significant independent rights with the neo-liberal turn of the 1970’s and 80’s, because they provided the blueprint for corporate-run independent entities. There is a reason that justices such as Niel Gorsuch are so big on native rights, because it gives a legal precedent for the creation and maintenance of powerful non-state entities within U.S. soil. I’m not going to argue if this is a good or bad thing, as it’s very grey, but the goal of the conservative empowerment of reservations seems to be eventually allowing the legal precedent for the development of a U.S. Hong Kong, an entity that is part of the U.S. but not the U.S.
However that being said, when larger corporate interests are at stake, native rights always get thrown to the way-side.
if this were true you wouldn’t compare the former to the latter because you’d know just how different they are.
Is this true? Césaire claims that Nazism grew more out of European colonial practices
Ever heard of colonialism and slavery? Amerikkka is founded in genocide and evil. Or was that not “blatant” enough for you?
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how pointlessly pedantic. the US does not “claim” new territory, because then it would be responsible for what happened on it. instead, it coups governments install ones that will sign over the public resources to US corporate interests for extraction and the US trains their military/secret police to undermine labor movements and execute environmental activists and labor organizers. neocolonialism is a word.
Can you explain what you believe this means?
A land acknowledgement isn’t shit if it isn’t backed by any action. It means jack shit to acknowledge that one is on stolen land and then do nothing to give the land back to those it was stolen from.
All it does is let white libs feel a little better about themselves for five minutes, and then wash their hands of any of the true consequences and outcomes of the genocide that gave them this land.
I think some indigenous peoples would disagree.
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Forced relocation, residential schools, starvation, contaminated blankets, bounties and U.S. Cavalry troops may have been replaced by police shootings, incarceration, desecration of reserve lands, foster care, lack of infrastructure and services, and poverty as the tools of ethnic cleansing, but I argue the genocide continues today.
They’re the smallest racial group at just 8 percent of the population but are the most likely to be killed by police at 1.9 percent of all police killings. They are also incarcerated at a rate 38% higher than the national average and victims of violent crime at more than double the rate of all other citizens, with 88 percent of those crimes being committed against women by non-indigenous peoples. Young people are 30 percent more likely than whites to be referred to juvenile court than have charges dropped, and children are removed from their homes by state social service agencies at a far higher rate than other children.
Obviously you probably know all of this so I’m writing it for the benefit of others. I don’t think you gain at all by accepting the narrative that they’ve stopped. Changing methods doesn’t mean it stopped. You’re entitled to think otherwise but I really don’t think you should soften your language on it, you lose out by doing so and you absolutely deserve better.
congrats on shacking up with a well off native from a well off native family, but their experience is not universal to their people nor is it universal to all the nations in the US. there is no chance you are operating in good faith by extrapolating one person’s claimed experience into the reality of indigenous life in the US today.
i have worked with and developed friendships with individuals and families on the largest reservation (by size and population) in the US. young men, younger than me, were physically abused in school by their white public school teachers for speaking their native language and told it was the devil’s language. in the fucking 2000s.
none of that gets into the absolute disregard for missing and murdered native women by settler law enforcement. or the ongoing resource theft of settler governments prevent natives from their water rights.
so yes, it is happening today.
Racial slavery continues in the US prison system. Native Americans on reservations live in abominable conditions under US occupation and have their land and territorial rights regularly violated. Their treaties remain broken. Abortion rights are rolling backwards. The government in place almost exclusively benefits property owning white men.
You’re expressing exactly the mindset we’re criticizing in this thread.
The belief that “this is all in the past” is a key part of what was the dominant propaganda strategy for a long time (as opposed to the current push towards complete denialism): instead of completely denying the horrors of the past they gloss over them and teach about how this or that event “ended” them. The end result is people come out of high school with this idea of a horrible past that’s still heavily whitewashed, believing they’ve learned the truth when they just got a watered down and sanitized version of it (which still manages to be horrific), and believing this all to be in the past.
Entire decades of cruelty and horror get turned into single sentences like “this gave way to the sharecropping system and its problems,” with no elaboration on what those problems were or that it was ongoing up into the middle of the 20th century. Things like the coup and seizure of Hawaii by American mercenaries and marines get garbled into nonsense in textbooks. The century of pogroms and systematic exclusion and terror against PoC following the end of chattel slavery is glossed over or omitted completely, as is the way the enslavement of prisoners who were then leased to private interests quickly emerged as a way to continue the systems of the antebellum south.
And when the sanitized and content light horrors of the past are taught, every step of the way they take pains to make them seem more distant: horrors that persisted up through the 20th century get pushed back into the late 19th instead, the legal end of American apartheid is some distant and historic thing instead of something that happened in living memory and that much of the ruling class were already adults for, if it’s mentioned at all forced sterilizations and mass ethnic cleansing are things that last happened in the 50s when both are alive and well with ICE and its concentration camp system.
In short, what people are taught in schools is little more than “things were bad, like definitely real bad and not good, as I’m sure you know. No I will not elaborate and besides that’s all done with anyways, now moving on…”
coerced sterilization still happens to ndn people (& black people) across turtle island. blood quantum is a deliberately genocidal policy that the feds and their compradors maintain to this day in many (most?) recognized indigenous groups. gtfo with this settler-apologist bullshit
I’m afraid that’s far from where the mythology ends. There were 14 presidents before Washington under the government of the Articles of Confederation, we don’t talk about them because we might question circumstances under which that government was ended, which was basically a Federalist coup in response to an Agrarian Uprising and a cash grab by the rich. We don’t talk about why Georgia was founded as a white’s only state, why the Declaration of Independence came suspiciously on the heels of a British Court case bringing into question the legality of slavery in British territories, or how the concept of whiteness was linked with freedom of religion back in the days of Bacon’s Rebellion. Seriously, I just deleted like a whole other paragraph so I wouldn’t swamp ya.
might wanna start here. Real History: Myths of the Founding Fathers (FULL) Michael Parenti - YouTube
Slavery is never even mentioned as being at all relevant to the American Revolution.
My US History class started with the revolution (no mention of anything more than a couple years before) and only started talking about slavery in the lead up to the civil war. You’d have thought it was something that only appeared after the revolution, they act as if it was a completely unrelated issue, even though it was one of the leading causes.
But if you teach kids in school “The US was founded to stop Britain from taking our slaves away” instead of “No taxation without representation” they want to burn the whole place down and start over.
Oh yeah, the way we we’re taught about the American Revolution and that time period just erases like a general undercurrent of uprisings. We’re taught what fulfills the narrative and everything else is left by the wayside. Even stuff we fess up to like Native American “relocation” is more like a limited hang out that lets them gloss over some of the more wild laws and one sided violence that was and still is perpetrated.
Does this mean the America’s revolution against England was never justified?
Probably not. I mean fuck monarchies and all that, but that myth of a righteous revolution is definitely bullshit. One of the big reasons behind the increase of taxation was to pay for the defense of the colonies against other European powers while the colonies themselves were trading with them. I don’t think there was really any “good” guys among the players between the Brits and the rich Colonists.
didn’t the english bourgeois revolution happen like a century earlier too?
Yeah, somewhere around there. That’s less outside my wheelhouse though. I’m still trying to unlearn all the US mythology I was taught as a kid.
Does this show up in the journals or correspondence of any of the founders?
So I’m not aware of it, but there’s a lot I’m not aware of either. There was a growing clash that was brewing between the colonies and England. People of the colonies were largely seen as uncouth-ish because of their slave owning ways while also England was starting to have to rely on slaves in their armies in the Caribbean ( it think) that they would then free because the colonists were unreliable. And so there was a lot of back and forth going on at the time around ending slavery, some because it was seen as below the standing of the people of England, some just to piss off the colonists. Somerset’s case led to a handful of copycats, but probably one of the biggest events around slavery leading up to that time period of the Declaration was Lord Dunmore’s Proclamation.
I think one of the big things to remember about this time is that it’s not like now where everything is happening at the speed of the internet, which people often forget. Communication wasn’t nearly as fast so things had to occur at much longer time scale. We kinda fall into a weird way of looking at the past as a number of dates and not really think about how many events had to happen over a period of time for the build up of human interaction that lead to those events. A bit like libs with the Russian/Ukraine conflict only beginning when Russia invaded.
btw I got a lot of this from Gerald Horne’s The Counter-Revolution of 1776: Slave Resistance and the Origins of the United States of America. It’s an incredible read on uprisings of the enslaved and how it ties into the American Revolutionary period. He starts looking at things about 100 years before the declaration and covers so much stuff that school had never even touched. Interestingly enough it kinda pairs pretty well with the pirate show Black Sails because of the importance of the Caribbean uprisings.
Hm, I didn’t claim to have a comprehensive list of wrongdoings that America is responsible for. This seems like a distraction to the conversation - pointing to things a country did hundreds of years ago as proof of why it is evil today.
Ultimately, I don’t find the actions or beliefs of the founding fathers or anyone around or before that period to be very relevant to how the modern world operates. No one today is going to defend slavery, but it wouldn’t hurt if the events you linked were better taught.
I feel like half of my public school history classes were about early America and slavery so there is probably only so much time they can dedicate to US injustices.
The 13th Amendment, still in effect (and therefore defended) is the “I’m not racist, but…” of the US constitution.
I’m sorry, but arguing that the history of a country that was built around a mythology of manifest destiny and white supremacy is irrelevant to the country’s current actions of white supremacy and manifest destiny is pretty silly.
But if you’d prefer something more relevant. There’s always The Jakarta Method.
No one is going to defend slavery? Bruh slavery is still legal in the US. It was never outlawed. Slavery never ended.
k. let’s just do the last 20 years.
the death of a million+ people in Iraq and Afghanistan. the destruction of the Libyan state and immiseration of the people there. the social murder of a million+ people (mostly old, poor and black) domestically due to letting covid rip to
make line go upsave the economy. the social murder of millions more internationally to protect bill gates’s intellectual property. the social murder and immiseration of countless people every year by treating housing and health care as commodities. the bolivian coup & subsequent empowerment of fascists there that murdered tens of thousands. the school of americas-trained death squads running guatemala. the coup in honduras in 2009. the blockade on cuba & venezuela that’s murdered probably close to a million (if 90s iraq is any analog) and immiserated countless more. the us-backed brazilian coup that empowered christofascists there to burn the amazon and do their own genocide there.and it’s not like 1873 to 2003 was any different, so maybe get your head out of your ass
Lol, what? Have you talked to anyone from… literally anywhere else? Most people believe the founding stories of their country that they’re taught in high school.