The drama around the new movie and the lead being Black and how crackers are crying over it has convinced me that rhe dissolution of white America, and all manner of Indigenous and Black and marginalized nationalisms are legitimate.

Reparations are legitimate. Black and Indigenous independent capital are legitimate. Black and Indigenous socialism is legitimate. Land Back is legitimate. Total defeat of white armies is legitimate. Expulsion of white people back to Europe and being excommunicated from the western hemisphere is legitimate.

The only thing whiteness understands is conflict and domination. whites deserve ZERO ACCESS to any form of land or resource or labor that involves any Indigenous or nonwhite effort.

I dont think anyone can convince me that white people want peace. The abused should be able to evict their abusers.

I cant stand it. whiteness is just insanity. Antisocial, desperately hateful madness. Its only defining characteristics is just what it supposedly isnt and what it is opposed to. A means of defining an enemy. That is all whiteness is. A retreat from humanity and a search for an enemy. Because if it didnt have an adversary, whiteness would have no concrete meaning.

If ANY self determination movement or anticolonial movenent has the ability to expel their exploiters and colonizers, not only should they, but they are obliged. And no. white people dont get a chance to understand it if and when it happens.

  • GloriousDoubleK@lemmygrad.mlOP
    71·
    2 years ago

    Yes. That is what I meant. Self determination up to EVERY implication that the colonized may feel is necessary in that context.

    I am white; btw. So in bad faith, one can argue that im talking about segregation.

    But that’s a bad faith read. When I meant self determination; I sincerely mean Black and Indigenous power up to and including expelling whites or anyone or any institution they feel is a hinderance to their self determination and sovereignty. They have the RIGHT to reparations, they have the RIGHT to have physical distance from their abusers, and they have the RIGHT to disassociate with their colonizers. Im serious. Whatever they feel is necessary for their peace and safety and development.

    If that means expulsion and physical borders that whites cant cross, fair. If that means denial of goods, services, and resources to whites; fair.

    Decolonization has no bearing on what we poor working whites think it should play out. Is it really decolonization if we get a say in how to dull the sting of justice and reparations?

    I have no illusions. If decolonization was to happen, people like me will feel it in our bones. We will feel it IN OUR SLEEP. But if their national security means folks like me need to be excluded from the matters of law and rights and sovereignty and consitutions; so be it.

    And Ive felt this way for years. But this… petty low rent “antiwoke” complaining and hysterics over a Black mermaid or some pissy attitude towards “diversity” in things as simple and mundane as a movie or a fucking comic book? You wanna argue that this is corporate astroturfing to “divide and conquer” the working class… Fine. Say that. But it worked and if it worked; someone was to blame and no… It aint the elites that are to blame. Poor whites fall for this shit and THAT’S the problem.

    • Ratette (she/her)@lemmygrad.ml
      3·
      2 years ago

      No arguments from me, self determination is hardly a big ask given the trauma instilled in generations of individuals by racism.

      I think this is why so many struggle to understand the struggle of minorities.

      They aren’t just fighting for the stuff written on paper but for liberation from the trauma instilled through the means of oppression by the white/straight/male etc oppressors.

      I could never understand how bame comrades feel and that’s just a fact but I want to do whatever I can to heal those wounds including shutting up if asked of me, but I think we always have to be mindful of acting like white saviours or desperate allies because it has a tendency to be condescending in ways I imagine infuriate our comrades who’d rather we just listen as I guess i know I’ve probably being guilty of it in the past.

    • DankZedong @lemmygrad.ml
      3·
      2 years ago

      I don’t think I understand your last part. Wouldn’t this just mean that white people are now on the receiving end of things or am I reading it wrong?

      Also, I’m not arguing in bad faith but I sometimes do not completely understand the goals of decolonization I think.

      • GloriousDoubleK@lemmygrad.mlOP
        32·
        2 years ago

        Im gonna be real with ya. I dont think it’s up there with doing an uno reverse card on colonialism and putting white people in chains.

        From my read of it; there is a demand for colonizers to STOP and surrender the plunder and loot. It says a lot about being white if we imagine that WE die if we stop being colonizers.

        Ive heard of ideas such as white people surrendering and throwing their efforts in for a Black power cause. I imagine in return; these revolutionary whites may get an invitation to live under the new Indigenous or Black state.

        Regardless. We are going to die. What difference does it make for us if we die by neolibs, climate change, fascists, or revolution?

        Aint none of us getting out of this world alive.

        • DankZedong @lemmygrad.ml
          31·
          2 years ago

          Because you make it sound like white people dying in every situation lol. If I think about a fairer world in no scenario would I die or be enslaved or whatever, but your comments make it seem that that’s what I should be prepared for or something, and that I have no say in that whatsoever. I can follow you up until the point where I supposedly die. Why do I or any white person have to die in this scenario?

          Edit: let me elaborate on my confusion. You make it sound like in order for the oppressed to get full and just freedom they somehow have to get revenge on the white people. Maybe I understand it wrong. But this is how that sounds. Please also not see this as a bad faith argument. I sincerely want to see where you are coming from.

          • GloriousDoubleK@lemmygrad.mlOP
            32·
            2 years ago

            Im not suggesting that white people MUST die. Im just trying to get that part out of the way BECAUSE that worry SHOULD NOT be the reason decolonization doesnt happen.

            The chances if youre white you get killed by a reactionary settler is much higher than by some based revolutionary that takes you out in friendly fire.

            But still. We should be willing to be disciplined and TOLD WHAT TO DO 🤷‍♀️ as a minimum.

        • Kaffe@lemmygrad.ml
          7·
          2 years ago

          The leveling force is Socialism. It is the guarantees of a decent living, it is the process for the abolition of class, race, and sexual disparities. White Supremacy is enforced through the gatekeeping of wealth and resources (as is patriarchy), if we take away that ability, Whiteness collapses. Whiteness will then only be a construct of individual bigotry, which erodes itself when confronted with reality. We need to target the key processes that allow the social reproduction of White Supremacy, Patriarchy, and Capitalism as a whole.

          • DankZedong @lemmygrad.ml
            3·
            2 years ago

            This is my main thing. Socialism should dissolve all these contradictions that exist right now, right? Or am I seeing this too simplistic?

              • DankZedong @lemmygrad.ml
                4·
                2 years ago

                I feel lost in this entire conversation really. I think I don’t understand what’s going on lol.

                What exactly is the point of decolonization and how does it differ from communism?

                • Kaffe@lemmygrad.ml
                  7·
                  2 years ago

                  Decolonization needs to happen before Communism, it is a Socialist process.

                  But the gist of decolonization is to remove the colonial structures of a colonial society. Colonialism isn’t about migration (people moving to a new land), it’s about resource extraction, genocide, and land grabbing (settlerism). Decolonization means to give the colonized people their autonomy over their lands back. In the case of Vietnam, it was about expelling French, Japanese, and American colonists. They didn’t kick out all White people and the Japanese, they allowed those who wanted to participate in the revolution and stay within the Vietnamese nation. There are examples of white and Japanese people who joined the Viet Cong.

                  However, settler societies like in the Americas are much older than Asian colonial societies, the conditions are different. American settlers vastly out populate the colonized peoples. Decolonization in America looks different than in China, Vietnam, and South Africa. This is still an open question, so don’t expect for answers to exist right now, but understand that colonized peoples should be the main voices we listen to.

                  • DankZedong @lemmygrad.ml
                    4·
                    2 years ago

                    This makes more sense to me than other comments in this thread, and is actually in line with what I had in mind. Thanks for clearing this up.