Point of order: debate class isn’t good for much more than gaining confidence and showmanship. 99% of irl debates don’t take place in front of a decision maker who’s ostensibly neutral.
Russia invaded Ukraine, twice, now the second time Ukraine is fighting back with western help, how is that a “proxy war”?
I assume you would agree that the Vietnam War, in which the US intervened to help the south vietnamese against the north vietnamese who were backed by the USSR, was a proxy war? This conflict has fairly similar origins. The DPR and LPR breakaway republics were backed by Russia, while Ukraine was backed by the US/NATO in what was initially a civil war. Now Russia has intervened fully, but the Ukrainian side is still a proxy for the US. Even if we believe the DPR/LPR to be russian puppets, the same was true for south Vietnam.
Following the US backed 2014 coup of Ukraine’s elected leader, in part for not being anti-Russian enough, there were mass protests and demonstrations in Crimea against the rabidly anti-Russian (both the country and Russian speaking populace that makes up much of Eastern Ukraine) incoming coup government. It held a referendum on independence, which passes with massive popular support. Russia was asked, by Crimea, to guarantee it’s security when it was clear that the coup government of Ukraine would not accept their independence, and as a result there was annexation. Meanwhile, the Ukrainian coup government was also engaged in a brutal civil war against the Donetsk and Luhansk oblast regions including daily shelling and empowering neo-Nazi groups to commit murder, torture, and terrorism against the people of those regions.
Literally all of this is historical fact that you’d know if you read literally anything on the subject, even a Wikipedia article, and is acknowledged even by those who support thr 2014 coup and subsequent Ukrainian governments.
You’re calling people delusional while not even knowing the first thing about actual historical fact. Go do some reading.
Because the Ukrainian government in power is aligned with the West politically, and the US/EU wouldn’t want to fight Russia directly. While it certainly still functions in many ways like a proxy war, I feel like it was more of a proxy war until 2022 when it was contained to the eastern part of the country and the US was actively training the Ukrainian military in Ukraine (I believe they are now training them outside Ukraine to avoid sparking a direct war between NATO and Russia) concurrently with Russian military support for Luhansk and Donetsk. When Russia widened the theatre of war to the whole country last year, I think the character of the war shifted fundamentally.
The US should certainly bugger off and stop shitting on USSR Russia’s doorstep. Go overthrow some some South American governments like you used to instead.
As for EU, let Ukraine in and fight for them if you like them so much, wankers. Why waste money on weapons just to fuel the war knowing full well that Ukraine doesn’t have the manpower to win it? And I don’t buy the “weaken the Russia” argument. The Russian military equipment is crap but that crap costs the same amount in rubles as western equipment in dollars. So, literal pennies to a dollar given the current exchange rate.
We did basically do the Charlie Brown football trick to them with NATO membership. The US knew full well that Russia would take military action and the US still made false promises to Ukraine because they wanted to mire the region in a proxy war.
I don’t think americans and the rest of ‘the west’ realize how much resentment is going to be felt by Ukraine by the end of this. Zelensky has already made several remarks to the media about being honeydicked by the west to their benefit and his downfall. Remember when good old BoJo scuttled an already settled peace talk between Ukraine and Russia on the promise of enough aid to win the war? How’s that shit going? And then you have people constantly saying shit like this:
The way I see it, the longer this war goes on, the weaker Russia gets. Sure it’s costing the US (and other countries) a lot of money and resources [and costing Ukrainians their lives and homes] but we are essentially weakining a not-so-friendly country of ours without having to send our own troops to fight it.
(thank you @RandallFlagg@lemm.ee for the illustrating example, my own added text in bold brackets)
as if that message is not being heard by the people of Ukraine. I’ve been saying this since we’ve started sending weapons over there, there will be war hardened troops - some of them literal nazis - coming home from this war resentful of the people that continuously baited them into prolonging it while their own country was destroyed and looted. Thank god we’re keeping a sharp eye on all of those weapons shipments to make sure they don’t end up in the wrong hands. Oooops!
i guess if Ukraine didn’t want to get invaded and didn’t want to get genocided they shouldn’t have dressed like they did, they were basically asking for it, excellent logic there mate.
are you saying that Ukraine got invaded by Russia as a western plot?
You know he’s not.
I don’t, it very much sounds like that’s what they are saying.
Russia invaded Ukraine, twice, now the second time Ukraine is fighting back with western help, how is that a “proxy war”?
Twice lmao. This liberal definitely understands Crimea.
are you saying Crimea wasn’t occupied by force? jesus christ you are delusional.
is anyone who disagrees with your delusion a “lib” btw?
you know what kind of group you are in when you start making up derogatory terms for people you disagree with?
hint:
alt-rigtht uses cultural Marxists as a label for people
childfree uses Breeders.
Ah yes, ‘liberal’, a term we invented as a derogatory slur and has no meaning other than that.
Have you ever taken a debate class? Honest answer
Point of order: debate class isn’t good for much more than gaining confidence and showmanship. 99% of irl debates don’t take place in front of a decision maker who’s ostensibly neutral.
They also dont teach the most useful retorical forms for real life like argumentum ad vultum and ppb
I never learned that I could win by simply depicting my opponents as the cringe wojack and myself as the Chad.
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didn’t know lemmy required one, relevance?
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i am not debating currently how would you know?
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I assume you would agree that the Vietnam War, in which the US intervened to help the south vietnamese against the north vietnamese who were backed by the USSR, was a proxy war? This conflict has fairly similar origins. The DPR and LPR breakaway republics were backed by Russia, while Ukraine was backed by the US/NATO in what was initially a civil war. Now Russia has intervened fully, but the Ukrainian side is still a proxy for the US. Even if we believe the DPR/LPR to be russian puppets, the same was true for south Vietnam.
Russia invaded Ukraine and took Crimea, what civil war, lmao
you guys are delusional as fuck
The war in Donbass that started in 2014? How are you this wrong and smug at the same time?
Following the US backed 2014 coup of Ukraine’s elected leader, in part for not being anti-Russian enough, there were mass protests and demonstrations in Crimea against the rabidly anti-Russian (both the country and Russian speaking populace that makes up much of Eastern Ukraine) incoming coup government. It held a referendum on independence, which passes with massive popular support. Russia was asked, by Crimea, to guarantee it’s security when it was clear that the coup government of Ukraine would not accept their independence, and as a result there was annexation. Meanwhile, the Ukrainian coup government was also engaged in a brutal civil war against the Donetsk and Luhansk oblast regions including daily shelling and empowering neo-Nazi groups to commit murder, torture, and terrorism against the people of those regions.
Literally all of this is historical fact that you’d know if you read literally anything on the subject, even a Wikipedia article, and is acknowledged even by those who support thr 2014 coup and subsequent Ukrainian governments.
You’re calling people delusional while not even knowing the first thing about actual historical fact. Go do some reading.
NATO’s proxy war was against the people of eastern ukraine and crimea. They also had their backers.
eastern Ukraine, Crimea was invaded by the Russians and taken by force you dumb fuck
Because the Ukrainian government in power is aligned with the West politically, and the US/EU wouldn’t want to fight Russia directly. While it certainly still functions in many ways like a proxy war, I feel like it was more of a proxy war until 2022 when it was contained to the eastern part of the country and the US was actively training the Ukrainian military in Ukraine (I believe they are now training them outside Ukraine to avoid sparking a direct war between NATO and Russia) concurrently with Russian military support for Luhansk and Donetsk. When Russia widened the theatre of war to the whole country last year, I think the character of the war shifted fundamentally.
so in your opinion, the US and West should have stood by and let Ukraine be invaded by Russia?
The US should certainly bugger off and stop shitting on
USSRRussia’s doorstep. Go overthrow some some South American governments like you used to instead.As for EU, let Ukraine in and fight for them if you like them so much, wankers. Why waste money on weapons just to fuel the war knowing full well that Ukraine doesn’t have the manpower to win it? And I don’t buy the “weaken the Russia” argument. The Russian military equipment is crap but that crap costs the same amount in rubles as western equipment in dollars. So, literal pennies to a dollar given the current exchange rate.
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We did basically do the Charlie Brown football trick to them with NATO membership. The US knew full well that Russia would take military action and the US still made false promises to Ukraine because they wanted to mire the region in a proxy war.
I don’t think americans and the rest of ‘the west’ realize how much resentment is going to be felt by Ukraine by the end of this. Zelensky has already made several remarks to the media about being honeydicked by the west to their benefit and his downfall. Remember when good old BoJo
scuttled an already settled peace talk between Ukraine and Russia on the promise of enough aid to win the war? How’s that shit going? And then you have people constantly saying shit like this:
(thank you @RandallFlagg@lemm.ee for the illustrating example, my own added text in bold brackets)
as if that message is not being heard by the people of Ukraine. I’ve been saying this since we’ve started sending weapons over there, there will be war hardened troops - some of them literal nazis - coming home from this war resentful of the people that continuously baited them into prolonging it while their own country was destroyed and looted. Thank god we’re keeping a sharp eye on all of those weapons shipments to make sure they don’t end up in the wrong hands. Oooops!
i guess if Ukraine didn’t want to get invaded and didn’t want to get genocided they shouldn’t have dressed like they did, they were basically asking for it, excellent logic there mate.
liberals try not to downplay actual genocide by calling everything they don’t like genocide challenge
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That’s an odd way to say that the US/NATO instigated this conflict