Comparison left vs right for a craftsman who doesnt know which one he should buy:
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l/r same bed size
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r lower bed for way easier loading/unloading
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r less likely to crash
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r less fuel consumption and costs
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r less expensive to repair
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r easy to park
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r easy to get around in narrow places like crowded construction sites or towns
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r not participating in road arms race
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l You get taken serious by your fellow carbrained americans because ““trucks”” are normalized and small handy cars are ridiculed.
So unless you are a fragile piece of human, choose the right one.
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I agree with the sentiment of this post, but to be fair, you can also carry 3 or 4 passengers in the left vehicle, as opposed to only one in the right.
The main problem is the US fuel economy regulations actually encourage manufacturers to build bigger trucks and SUVs so they get classified into a category that has looser fuel economy requirements.
The extended cab version of the right truck would still tick all the boxes.
Off-road and towing capacity are probably the main feature you give up with that sort of design. Whether or not most people need that is a separate story.
They make kei trucks in 4x4, but you do lose ground clearance.
That being said, what kind of “off road” conditions are any of the trucks really contending with?
Muddy fields when parking at church or boy scouts or whatever.
Whats best is the kei 4x4 is probably significantly better in most off road situations due to its lighter weight and shorter wheel base. You can drive/manuever around things easier and when you are on mud or sand, the lighter weight prevents sinking.
what kind of “off road” conditions are any of the trucks really contending with?
Probably all of the conditions, considering how many of those trucks there are, but it would be fun to see an off-road shootout between the two.
Sounds like a job for Donut Media.
You are right. Still the american truck is hugely oversized, even for 5 persons and cargo. But, for the sake of the argument, imagine standing on the highway. Have a gander at the cars around you. How many people per car do you see? Exactly, 90% of the time there is exactly one person in a car. What makes the american truck an extreme waste of space an ressources, beside being a health hazard to everyone outside of the car.
Cars should get smaller, not bigger.
You’re mostly right. The main problem is that manufacturers chose to ignore the spirit of the US CAFE fuel economy regulations, and instead build everything bigger and bigger. That’s why quarter-ton trucks grew to the size of the F150 in the year 2000 when they were quite a bit smaller before.
It’s not the fault of the regulation. It is the fault of the manufacturers and to an equal extent, of consumers for preferring gigantic vehicles.
And let’s not let GM off the hook for the 1990s Suburban, which began to, quite literally, dominate the roads. Those fuckers were the original huge grocery getter, and they had truly awful turning radius and blind spots. You just couldn’t drive them safely or courteously if you tried. So of course everyone wanted more powerful and bigger vehicles to compete.
I’m actually going to fault regulations on this one. The EPA bases fuel economy requirements on the wheelbase of the vehicle. They used to publish a range of values based every other year or so, but then changed it to a formula. The formula is non-linear, making it neigh impossible to build anything with a small wheelbase anymore. In theory, they could design a small hybrid truck, but would need an obnoxiously long bed to compensate.
I watched a YouTube video on it not terribly long ago, and iirc, a 95 Ford Ranger, if held to the current formula-based regulations, would need 60+ mpg to be produced without major penalties to the company.
The EPA either needs to reevaluate the formula, or start manually publishing the numbers with values that are actually achievable by the industry at scale. Basically, by publishing the formula, manufacturers are able to min-max their designs in all the wrong ways.
EDIT: Updated for clarity and fixed some typos
Yep, I think I saw that video, I was shocked how bad the regulations were. It really makes no financial sense for companies to make smaller trucks.
Really, the fault of the regulations is that the penalties for the number of vehicles in the heavy polluting category weren’t nearly stiff enough. That’s a big part of why the automakers went the opposite direction and just made bigger and heavier vehicles - they could.
Thanks for pointing our the real incentives which are always some bullshit about more money and less regulations - basically the reason capitalism sucks at innovation - it doesn’t care about whats important and in some cases actively hates it
What’s important for you specifically is not what is important to the customer base writ large.
You have problems with fellow consumers that you blame on manufacturers.
Capitalism does not follow the desires of consumers, it follows the desire of shareholders.
That doesn’t even make sense in the logic you’ve presented. Shareholders want to maximize value, which means selling more things to consumers, which means selling things consumers want.
If your entire worldview falls apart at the slightest scrutiny, it may be time to re-evaluate said worldview.
When you consider that marketing is intended to manipulate consumers into thinking they want your product, it’s more about convincing people that your product has value, and that they need it, rather than selling something that consumers actually need.
You are not the arbiter on what people “need,” and people do not only purchase or consume things based on “need.” As a hilariously easy example, neither of us “needs” to be here right now having this conversation.
Again, it’s time to re-evaluate the entire worldview
I never claimed to be the arbiter of what people need, but im just saying consumers dont have as much freewill as they claim when they’re actively being manipulated at every corner. Marketing is literally intended to make you feel like you need a product you didn’t previously want.
Given the usage patterns, most people in the US do not need large trucks. They have been convinced that need them because the auto manufacturers make a lot of money selling trucks.
I thought it was very disingenuous of OP to not mention crew capacity between the two trucks at all. I’d assume the bigger truck also has a better towing capacity which may be required. What isn’t required is buying one of these trucks to get groceries and replace your tv every 3 years while commuting to your desk job 1 hour away.
But what about cargo capacity? The beds look pretty much the same size, although I’m sure allowed weight is drastically different
The main post claims the beds are the same size. Technically speaking in terms of volume the kei truck wins due to lower bed height (if we are using max height to pass bridges as our standard). As for weight I’m pretty sure the left truck wins out on total capacity. That said the kei truck is still a remarkably useful minitruck and i wish they had a bigger market in the west.
The name crew can exist for reason, that how pack all your labourers in to job site, now 80% of tradesman don’t have a whole crew of labourers so the point is still there.
Thats why we always had larger and smaller versions of trucks.
99% of trucks don’t NEED 3-4 passengers. Same with SUVs. Most are just used to commute back and forth to work.
Half ton trucks should have remained small, while the 1 ton ones should be closer to what the half-ton are sized today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_F-Series#/media/File:1953_F100_Diagram.jpg
Look at the original F-100 for a good example. The old Rangers are also what most trucks should look like. Only the people that really use them should be driving these massive trucks around. I honestly hope gas prices spike massively because it’s going to hit idiots that drive this shit the worst.
I would bet the standard seating for the left truck is five, but you could easily cram six in. Unless the front row is connected, then it would be even more.
There name crew can exist for reason, that how pack all your labourers in to job site
Can’t tow a boat an RV or trailer with the Japanese vehicle. All things Americans do for fun. For work? The Japanese vehicle can’t haul 6,000 lbs of lumbar or steel, nor can it pull another vehicle out of a ditch.
The left one looks a little too expensive to actually haul with. If you needed to move that much wouldn’t something like an Isuzu Grafter make more sense?
If you tow things wouldn’t a van or any 4x4/high powered car be a better choice?
To anyone claiming that the bigger one is the safer one …
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24499113/
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-with-the-most-car-accidents
From the Bloomberg & NLM articles
From a safety perspective, kei cars have a lot going for them when compared with American-style SUVs and trucks. Their light weight generates less force in a collision, and their stubby front ends reduce driver blind spots. Research suggests that their occupants are equally safe as those inside full-sized vehicles.
At first, I was going to criticize the collision speed of the example study, but found ( ok, I say found, I mean I googled for 15 seconds ) that the average American collision is occurring at less than 40mph, so good to go there.
Second, I was going to comment on the relative safety of being in the Kei truck and being struck by the 2500HD… but that just goes back to the ‘participating in the arms race’, so feels… stupid.
So, overall: Thanks for providing this. It directly answers the primary concern of ‘what if I hit something tho’. There are some other angles I could nitpick on maybe, but they all feel like a kind of ‘consolation prize’ to the argument.
One thing you also need to remember, is that the smaller car has a far smaller braking distance and is more maneuverable, so is less likely to get in a crash. The lower centre of gravity also decreases the likelihood of a roll-over.
Reminds me of a friend some years back. She was 4’ nothing but insisted on driving a large SUV as it was “safer” in a accident. I’m taller than most but I prefer smaller vehicles like older Cherokees and Volvos so it’s quite the odd difference.
95% of the craftsmen I know have panel vans. Easier to both organize and secure tools and materials, more overall room.
I lived in (and now commute through) a neighborhood of older houses, and higher incomes, so I see a lot of contractor vehicles. It seems like it breaks down as landscapers and lawn services use the pickup trucks; trades companies (plumbers, electricians, HVAC, carpenters, painters, etc.) use vans or box trucks; and the independent guys tend to use Dodge Caravans. Nearby, the university uses fleets of kei trucks (the low-speed versions because “freedom”), Ford Model E vans, and Caravans. I think the landscaping crew has pickups.
There are an increasing number of company pickup trucks, but most of them appear to be pavement princesses, used only for their usual function: transporting egos, not equipment.
Ours are utes. Either road versions or 4×4 versions. American trucks sell here but they’re seen as a joke in both capability and practicality, so it’s assumed the owner is very insecure about something or not very intelligent. As a result, they’re very rare.
Until you have an odd size item like a door in frame. Or need to move something like a 1 man post lift. And since you know you won’t be cleaning it out as often so your always going to have extra crap your hauling for no reason. I’m just going off every pro that has shown up for work at my job sites in a van.
I had a 1 ton Ford van for 12 years and I could haul a pallet of flooring or 20 sheets of drywall inside it, as well as lumber 12 feet or shorter. Anything more bulky than what fits inside a van like that would have difficulty fitting inside a 6.5 foot truck bed without a rats nest of ratchet straps and hanging way over the tailgate.
You have the right of it. If it won’t fit in the van, you hook up a trailer. The cost of the van and trailer combined is still a sight less than these living rooms on wheels.
Aren’t the vans we’re discussing here just as big (or even bigger if you consider the height) as the truck? It’s a truck frame with a big enclosed box on top
Yes, but full-size vans aren’t a popular vehicle outside of passenger and tradesmen applications, unlike pickup trucks. I was only pointing out that North Americans apparently prefer to have a passenger vehicle where 40-50% of the wheelbase is unused useless space.
Just gonna keep on posting this
This is why Pedestrian crash avoidance mitigation (PCAM) needs to be standard required by law, and will be on Californian shortly, and with California goes the world.
This pic is fantastic but I wish there were more examples from actual alternatives to what people claim they need the pickups for e.g. vans like Trafics, Kangoos/Berlingos, Mercedes Sprinter/Vito etc etc. There is at least a sprinter there in version pickup, which has a very good result as I’m sure the other ones would as well, because these things tend to have the windshield all the way at the front of the vehicle so you have great visibility for the front 180°, the back 180° depends on the configuration you have which range from completely closed/opaque cargo space to fully furnished 5/7 seaters with windows.
Good pic. Question : I’m new to Lemmy. How come it’s almost impossible to resize a pic without the pic closing on me? Is there a trick to this?
I have this same problem on the Connect app. Which app are you using?
Connect haha
Since Americans are obese, it makes sense that their cars are too.
I was looking for the “America bad” comment, was not disappointed. At least that carried over from reddit.
They are absolutely the driver in this market, like it or not.
American cars were big way before they became obese. Americans have been more suburban and roads were developed before a lot of towns were, so roads are wide and big.
I love small cars. I’m happy to live somewhere with small roads. And I care deeply about living in a walkable city, but obesity is not the reason the US has big cars and the UK has small cars. Similar obesity rate. Different roads. Different fuel costs.
I was looking for the “America bad” comment comment, was not disappointed. At least our fragile egos carried over from Reddit.
Jesus, you people can’t stop yourselves lol. I love it.
That obesity is quite common in the U.S. is true. Source.
Obesity rates in the UK are not far behind the US. 32% vs 38% according to WHO. Unfortunately most western developed counties are well on the path to where America is regarding obesity. The key difference in terms of car sizes is size of roads, civil planning, gas prices, and marketing. Not obesity.
I was the only guy at the marina showing up in a compact Nissan. Got a lot of shit for it from the raised up pickups.
Yet I always had that extra $20 for beers.
It’s a mystery.
Imagine being proud of drinking and driving
Edit: wow, seems your not alone in thinking killing others is a sport 👍
And if they said “yet I always had extra money for video games”, would you have assumed they were playing games while driving? Would “extra money for a bathroom remodel” translate into them doing the actual renovations in the passenger seat while driving?
Imagine making the assumption that just because they can afford to drink, they obviously did it while/before driving.
You appear to be German speaking. That is not what my comment meant: the beer was purchased on the way home and consumed in my home. We would often cross paths at the nearest gas station to the marina where I’d buy a case and they’d only be able to fill their tanks.
Imagine thinking a straw man argument matters…
They didn’t say anything about drinking and driving, why do you think it’s okay to assume it?
Yep. I’m an American tradesman and the trucks that the guys drive are way too beefy for what they actually do.
I’ve gotten by with small Toyota trucks, and rav 4s…much to the chagrin of the good old boys. Should have seen their face when I rolled up in a prius…till I tell em I get 50 mpg easy.
I would love a small little truck like this one in the photo.
The most handy truck I had doing construction when I was a kid was out Mazda B2200 with the Perkins diesel. It’d go forever on no fuel and was perfect for grabbing a few tools for a quick run to a job site.
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Also spent a lot of time in the industry (drywall, lath, and plaster). Key cars top out somewhere around 750 pounds of capacity, and I could early blow through that with brining materials to a job site, or hauling stuff to the dump.
Key cars are cool, but you also need other solutions in place for materials delivery and hauling. American trucks are kind of a one size fits all approach to construction. Your truck for heavy hauling is also the truck you use for light hauling.
Yea for sure. I’m not in a line of business where I need to he hauling stuff like that anymore. I mostly stick to the finish work these days. So I can get by w a car. If I were say a plumber or doing gutters or whatever, I could see how it’s reasonable to have say a box truck etc.
Most tradesmen I know haul a trailer with their tools and supplies so that they have the option of unhooking and leaving all that weight behind without unloading the truck. Or, conversely, unhooking at the jobsite so that their workers can keep going while they run for supplies.
Willing to bet right is owned by a true worker doing real work and left is some trumpet who uses that ugly tank to drive to Walmart to buy toilet paper.
Based on what I have seen at construction sites in Asia and the US you are correct.
Most construction workers don’t actually need to move all that much stuff so they tend towards regular vehicles or at most vans or small pickups. Raw material is delivered on semis. Every time I have known someone who owns a vehicle like that they could manage with a sedan. When I go out to a site my gear weights about as much as I do and it’s with two techs in an economy car.
Best example was one place I was at had these fake union jobs. One guy’s whole job was to babysit a machine. He drove one of those. Lazy mofo. Never packed lunch, wouldn’t sweep up his “workspace”, his entire day was on his phone.
This is why I loved my Nissan d21 when I had it
This is a simillar truck compared to what I had
Why isn’t that an option anymore‽ I’d absolutely love my 94 Ford ranger again, and I’m totes jelly of the old school Tacoma owners.
Yeah everyone I know would love a nice small ranger or Tacoma but everything is giant now
Brooo I’m jelly of the old school Toyota truck owners. From before it was called the Tacoma
The Ford Maverick scratches that old Ranger itch pretty well. I’ve had one for about a year and love it.
I heard the markup on those were crazy due to demand. Did you get a decent deal?
The emissions laws are terribly written. Combined with safety laws, makes going bigger the sensible option. And to the average buyer, go a little bigger than you absolutely need is definitely something to think about.
I had a '95 ranger for 15 years. Little 4-banger that I beat the shit out of, and moved half way across the country (and back, fuck Missouri!) in. Now I have a '12 Ranger. Similar in size, maybe a ltitle bigger. But they don’t sell them anymore in this size. I’m not sure what I’ll get next. I like the small pickups, but I wouldn’t want to try to drive the little one in the picture on the local freeways.
I like those old school trucks. Perfect size. No over the top gaudy BS. Just simple and utilitarian.
A friend died in a Ford Ranger. They literally have no crumple zone.
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The kei trucks are also illegal to import in to the U.S., if they’re less than 25 years old. “Land of the free,” folks.
I do woodworking and have gotten by with my Subaru but occasionally need to pick up 4x8 sheets of plywood, OSB, or even drywall for the house. An electric kei truck would be perfect. I’m rooting for something like the Canoo or Telo EV truck to make it to market
Have you tried using a roof rack to strap the plywood down?
Most roof racks are not rated for much weight. A few sheets would be fine
This is what I do but not when it’s raining. Same with drywall.
Excited for when American trucks just become literal tanks. Seems to be the trend since everything here constantly needs to be bigger bigger bigger for suburbanites. Who needs yards when you can have bigger houses? Who needs a healthy environment when you can drive gas guzzling giants? We’re so unprepared to deal with climate change it’s depressing. I want to believe that our culture will eventually naturally see the value in smaller, simpler things, but the trends haven’t changed yet and I don’t see why they would.
We’re choosing Mad Max world in the USA.
The rest of the planet should plan accordingly by stocking spike strips or just not paving easy access to their homes. The Americans are transformed into toddling molerats once out of their vehicles and easily destroyed.
“Horses are man extenders” -Ken Barbie [The Movie]
-Ken. Just Ken.
I agree with the idea with the exceptions of towing capacity, passenger capacity, and possibly (probably) bed weight capacity.
But if you’re one guy that doesn’t tow anything and needs to haul a few sheets of plywood, sure, it makes sense.
The percentage of trucks on the left I see actually doing that is functionally 0%
Oh that may be true- but if we’re talking to working craftsman and builders as opposed to “anyone buying a truck” I think it matters.
Most truck buyers don’t need one. I don’t have a truck but I do have a 3600lb pop up camper that we tow with a Honda pilot. It’s basically the exact same car as the Honda Ridgeline pickup but with a hatch instead of a bed. It’s also a kid and vacation mobile.
In my case I’m not a craftsman but still couldn’t get by with the little truck because of towing and passenger capacity, that’s all I was saying.
Yeah for the whole 3 times a year you tow that thing.
That’s just it: 99% of the time these vehicles are not being used to their capacity.
And people think that 1% somehow justifies the entire other 99%
It’s laughable.
Well first off, we go camping 3 seasons a year, sometimes twice a month. Renting a car for camping, sometimes hundreds of miles away a dozen times a year doesn’t make any financial sense. Second, it’s our only big car and it’s used every time we have to pack the kids, dog, and luggage to go somewhere. My daily driver is a 4 door Subaru, not a Tahoe.
If I only need to tow or pack a vehicle once a year, I’d definitely consider renting, but that’s just not the case. I just hauled about 1000 lbs of lumber from home depot today- it literally gets used for its purpose on a weekly basis.
I’m not arguing the point there are lots of pickup bros that just run around in a king ranch solo and spend their weekend polishing it and taking all the parking spots at the mall, I’m just saying I really don’t think it’s really 99%. I see hundreds of tradespeople and weekend home improvement warriors on a daily basis.
Every pickup bro think pickups are justified. And they trot out all the same points you just made.
I offer you challenge: count every pickup you see, and record whether or not it has a load. I actually did that for a month, and its literally below 1% usage.
Every sedan bro think sedans are justified. And they trot out all the same points you just made.
I offer you challenge: count every sedan you see, and record whether or not it has all seats filled. I actually did that for a month, and its literally below 1% usage.
That’s what you sound like.
Yes, too many people have large trucks that don’t really use them for their purpose, but some of them are not that different from a sports car or sedan when not hauling a load for mileage and shouldn’t be expected to be used 24/7. SUVs are probably worse overall than trucks when it comes to excess unused space and mediocre mileage, but nobody complains about those.
but some of them are not that different from a sports car or sedan when not hauling a load for mileage
Sports cars sure, but sedans? Buuuuullshit.
and shouldn’t be expected to be used 24/7.
Why not?
SUVs are probably worse overall than trucks when it comes to excess unused space and mediocre mileage, but nobody complains about those.
Are you serious, people complain about oversized SUVs all the time. Please.
You’ve now reached the tone of desperate justification that people with oversized vehicles always fall back to.
I think ideally most people would prefer a smaller car as a daily driver and a larger one to be used as needed but insurance and registration costs wipe out any gas savings. And renting a vehicle for long trips is often prohibitively expensive. So that leaves this option of using a car that 99% of the time is not necessary.
I see a truck towing something maybe once a week. I see hundreds of trucks a day. 1/100s < 1%
We don’t need a lot of anything bar food, water, oxygen and sex. I’m all for sensible cars Vs that monstrosity on the left, but as hobbies go - boating is not the most offensive.
The problem I have with boating is that it takes a number of related environmentally irresponsible “wants” and chains them together into a series of linked “needs”. One “needs” the truck because they have a boat. That’s expected to be the end of the discussion, but really it isn’t because it is fair to continue to question the whole chain. People are bad at distinguishing wants and needs, or alternatively people are very good at presenting their wants as needs when a justification is needed.
Well now you know one person who uses their huge truck for the purpose it was designed for! 350 owner here. If I didn’t actually need it, I wouldn’t have it. I use it to haul pallets, trailers, sometimes I hotshot. Right now I’m restoring a house built in the 1870’s and it’s cheaper to haul the equipment myself rather than pay someone to deliver it.
Could you not do the same with the smaller truck on the right though?
The payload capacity is likely too low (never mind having cab space for a secure tool storage separate from the exposed hauling area in the box)
No, I can’t. I can haul more than 35k lbs with my truck, what’s the max for the one on the right? I doubt you’d be able to fit a pallet, let alone the 3 the bed of my truck can hold. I can pull a semi with my truck, can the one on the right do the same? What about a 5th wheel?
There are very valid reasons to own the truck on the left. And more often than not, if you’re going to spend $90k on a truck, it’s because it’s needed.
I agree with the idea with the exceptions of towing capacity, passenger capacity, and possibly (probably) bed weight capacity.
How often are people really towing that much though? Maybe a couple times a year at most? It would be cheaper to just rent a big truck for the few times you need it per year than have that absurd truck as a daily driver.
Well like I said craftsman and home builders do all the time. I’m a weekend home improvement warrior and I need to haul or tow a few thousand pounds of stuff at least once or twice a month, sometimes more. We have an suv with a tow hitch for that but the idea is similar.
Anything American should be avoided. Their food is full of sugar, cars are big and useless and internet companies always try to screw their users.
I am an american that fled the country and I can confirm.
capitalism is the problem
unregulated capitalism to be specific
Unregulated Capitalism -> Feudalism -> Imperialism.
This is the flow. I believe US is somewhere near feudalism now… I can be wrong as I don’t have a full picture.
lol true
