cross-posted from: https://beehaw.org/post/17202407
Sen. Roger Marshall (R-KS) introduced a bill this week to legally erase transgender people, entitled the “Defining Male and Female Act of 2024.” He claimed that the bill will stop what he called the Biden administration’s attempt to “replace biological sex with dangerous radical gender ideology.”
The bill is a long list of terms and definitions, where words like “father” and “girl” are defined with the words “male” and “female.” Those two words are then defined as “an individual who naturally has, had, will have, or would have, but for a congenital anomaly or intentional or unintentional disruption, the reproductive system that at some point produces, transports and utilizes [sperm or eggs for male or female, respectively] for fertilization.”
Not the dangerous radical gender ideology of trying to be happy
Is there any argument for trans people getting their rights removed?
Bigotry
People dont hate trans people just to hate trans people. They have reason, even if they are bad
It’s literally just bigotry and propaganda
Doesnt propaganda still have to give reasons or have a reason for people to believe the message?
The reason is bigotry. And misogyny.
I doubt you’ll see them freaking out about trans men playing men’s sports.
Bullshit. It comes from a simple disgust reflex. Everything else is post-hoc justification.
Name one.
And specifically, christian nationalism.
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If that were a valid explanation then why is the bill banning any adult recognition of trans adults?
There’s a different conversation on whether to allow gender affirming therapy for minors.
Sure. Different conversation I agree. I wasn’t commenting to the original post. Just that the idea that transgenderism and the issues surrounding it arent hard discussions with people outside of the community here is irrational.
Same shit said about gay people.
Being gay isn’t sexual. Being straight isn’t sexual. Being trans isn’t sexual. Someone saying they are a girl is not sexual. Someone saying they are a boy is not sexual.
You see how none of this relates to sex?
The real answer is that a lot of people don’t really understand being trans. A lot of people used to the same way about gay and lesbian people. Conservatives tried to rally hard against gay and lesbian people, but that proved unpopular. Trans people don’t have that same protection. So, they’ll go after it until people finally get it.
Conservatives only have identity politics.
I’m referring to nudity and expressing sexuality in front of children. Drag and children. Parades of expression with children involved. Seeing essentially naked men and women and children being encouraged to interact in it.
Good lord, nudity isn’t even a real issue. I regularly swim laps at my local public pool, and the changing room and showers regularly see a mix of children and adults. I don’t see any kids getting their innocence destroyed in the locker room or showers, and we’re all naked in there.
People only care when it’s trans people wearing clothes. They don’t really care about nudity, they’re trying to create a moral panic about queer people by suggesting that they are a threat to children.
You really think I’m talking about locker rooms? And do I need to point out that these have been male/female seperated?
Nudity is also not inherently sexual. You can be naked for reasons outside of having sex, such as cleaning yourself, using the bathroom, changing outfits, sunbathing, relaxing, etc. None of those are inherently sexual.
Wearing drag is not sexual either. It’s been a thing for centuries, and that’s just the easily identifiable stuff.
Wearing kink gear is not inherently sexual, though I can understand that you don’t recognize that because it has connotations. But you can wear it without it being a sexual act.
“Expressing” sexuality is purposefully vague. Is kissing expressing sexuality? Is holding hands? Children do those. That would be an expression of your sexual orientation. You aren’t really making any sense.
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I’ll agree someone saying they are are a girl/boy or trans isn’t sexual. Gender isn’t inherently sexual. Someone being gay/straight feels like it’s absolutely sexual. Implied with the"sexual" in homo or heterosexual. You could have nonsexual gay/straight thoughts/feelings I guess, but those are just feelings. Like, ANYONE is allowed to have them regardless of orientation, and honestly sounds like it’s bordering on asexual. Do you have a learning example for that line of thought? Before any angry blowback: I’m not trying to be a dick about this. As far as my understanding of this goes, I don’t follow that comment.
Ah yes not bigotry just made up bs points that are meant to do nothing but stop trans people from being accepted.
A lot of these points had analogues in the past with other minority rights movements, but why look to the past and see how those points were non-issues when we can instead get mad about the transgenders CoNfUsInG OuR ChIlDrEn.
And
This just means we need to let kids be who they are and support them in their transition, that is the only logical conclusion of that issue.
Unless they’re t****n freaks, then they can get outed to their abusive parents and sent to conversion camps for all I care :^)
Are you referring to yourself? No one who loves their children wants to send them to conversion camp. There are definitely discussions to have regarding the proper medical treatments and psychological care and how the involvement of the state and legislature hurts more than helps. But I don’t want the state being involved in how we raise our children. I don’t want to change children or parents sending their kids to camp. But you can’t pretend that parents and our communities aren’t involved in the way a child is raised, how they grow mentally and encouraging strengths, and guiding them in a healthy way. Let kids be who they are and make sure they get the support they need.
You say that and yet when a child decides to confide in their teacher for their own safety, instead of their parents, you want them to be forced to out the children.
And the entire “poor confused children” rhetoric doesn’t do anything but hurt us. We are not confused, we are devastated by being forced to go through the wrong puberty.
It really doesn’t sound like you’re a bigot but please examine the sort of rhetoric you take in and spread.
Look, I just got my comment removed for unmarked NSFW content. It was a picture of drag expression with a child involved. My problem is that. I don’t want any child to be devastated but just letting children be involved in unsafe for work expression for the sake of letting them have all the freedom is devastating in my eyes. And to hide behind some of the comments here that it’s not sexual in nature I cannot believe it does not have a poor effect on the growing identity in children. This is where my “poor confused children” rhetoric comes from.
“Confusing children during pivotal construction of their identity.”
Discovering and accepting your identity very much is what transitioning is. According to general society being born as a specific sex implies that identity. In everything from hobbies, clothing, friends. But what if you realise your identity does not align with what your sex implies? Even if it’s something small like a 15-year old boy who likes knitting. That aspect of their identity goes against the implied or expected identity that is based on their physical sex. Is the boy confused because he likes knitting or because what he’s been told what his identity should be doesn’t mesh with who he is?
“Suicide causes for transgender teens is often reported as bullying or bigotry, but not often reported on the lack of support for dysphoria and other mental health conditions.”
How are transgender teens supposed to get support for dysphoria if they are instead isolated? In my experience dysphoria isn’t something you just talk to a therapist about and then it’s cured. It’s the horrible visceral feeling I got whenever I was forced to wear a dress shirt. What fixed that? Not wearing a dress shirt. The freedom to wear the clothes that make me comfortable.
“A lack of stability in life often leads to chaotic life altering decisions, sometimes self harm and death.”
My life wasn’t more stable before I knew what transgender meant and realised I didn’t identify as a man when I was 19. It was filled with depression, self-isolation, and suicidal ideation. A slow but steady spiral into nothingness. It’s not like dysphoria only exists if we know it exists. Realising I was trans was certainly chaotic. But the reason it was so chaotic was that the identity that had been built up for me was shattered. So now I had to find and rebuild my identity from scratch. What most people spend their time doing from 5-16 I had to do over because I didn’t fit into the identity I was told to build.
I dealt with self-harm. Still struggle with it sometimes. I learned as a kid to bottle up my feelings. Be it regular sadness or stress, or dysphoria. So I began to use self-harm as a way to escape and cope with those feelings. When I could no longer bottle them up. Just like how people drink to drown their sorrows or do drugs to escape reality. I believe I never would have begun to self-harm if I had been able to build the identity I wanted from the start. If I was allowed to cry, or to express myself in ways that help me cope naturally.
Why is the inclusion of people - or teenagers in this case - that don’t fit the pre-existing mould and expectations such a problem? The idea that not everyone automatically fits into pre-conceived notions of what a boy and a girl is, or likes, or does, or acts. Is that such a threat to school or society in general?
Yes we need more help for people with gender dysphoria. But that help isn’t isolation from society. That help isn’t stopping people from trying to figure out who they really are.
That was what i was asking
One argument i have seen against acknowledging the existence of trans people is that people will be tricked into changing their gender
Its not a good argument, but it exists.
It’s bullshit and you’re either a sucker or a liar for playing along, pretending you don’t know what subtext is.
I wasnt asking for valid arguments against a group of people
Also, i had to search the definition of the word subtext
People can hate other people simply to make themselves feel better. Or for societal gain. That is less a reason for “why should this person be hated”, and more “what will I gain for hating/inciting hate against this person”.
You can go to pretty much any school and find someone being excluded or bullied for a nonsensical reason. I remember growing up when being “gay” was the worst thing someone could be in middleschool. That hate didn’t come from reasoned arguments or even fear. It came from something being different and the knowledge of calling someone out for being gay could societally give you a leg up on them.