Obviously I don’t know everyone’s political histories. But most people around me IRL who supported the idea of going into Iraq and Afghanistan (they were kind of blurred into one conflict) said, ‘never again’ and have been quite anti-war ever since.
A few of those backtracked and said, ‘well, maybe one more time’ when it came to Libya. Then afterwards, they said, ‘we really mean “never again” this time’.
But Ukraine has sent almost everyone into a frenzy for war. I had assumed that after Iraq, especially—which exposed the depth of lying that NATO is willing to sink to—that nobody would believe NATO’s version of the truth again. How naive I was.
I wouldn’t even mind if they (not necessarily Jaysyn, whom I don’t know) still disbelieved Russia’s narrative. In fact, I’d welcome it. A little healthy skepticism would lead to far better politics. All I see is skepticism against Russia but total faith in NATO. Where has critical thinking gone?
To disbelieve Russia’s narrative only to accept NATO’s? Wtf did I miss? I don’t think gullibility covers it. As you say, it must be constant and clever propaganda. I suppose they have the money for it, considering how much they have to gain if they can beat the drum of war.
I’m in the same boat as you are. What has me really shocked is how my European friends are in full “support the troops” mode now. What’s really surprising is how all their arguments almost always follow the same simplistic dualist thinking (“so you think Ukraine should just give up?”, “but it’s a democracy”, “but pUtLeR will take Poland next”, “you’re just spurting Russian propaganda”) and how people basically ignore all of your arguments just to call you a supporter of an “evil imperialist terror regime”.
I wish people would’ve learned their lesson by abandoning the media that’s obviously been lying to everyone for the past decades.
European friends are in full “support the troops” mode now
After laughing at USians for nigh on twenty years while saying, ‘those guys never learn their lesson, they love guns and spend ridiculous amounts of money on wars of their own making yet they can’t afford schools or hospitals.’ Turns out, Europeans aren’t so exceptional; when it comes to the crunch, all it takes is one month of news cycle and many people are happy to let themselves be fooled, once, twice, as many times as it takes. For shame.
Who knew this guy was an inspiring philosopher. Tbf to most irl people I know, most people are just aghast at the war and would like it to stop. Their opinion on NATO hasn’t changed; they just believe what NATO and it’s mouthpieces say about Russia.
What’s striking about it is how they have no comebacks, they have no arguments at all expect name-calling. You can show them all the evidence in the world and they’ll just call you names. Simple minded morons. Normies.
Where’s your evidence for people being ethnically cleansed in Ukraine, that Russia only invaded to free these people, and that they managed to free millions of people from ethnic cleansing? Show several sources for each claim, please.
Enforcing the use of Ukrainian languange for official use, while not a wholly positive thing, is not ethnic cleansing.
The YouTube video doesn’t even have complete captioning. It suspiciously only captions the part that said things about filtration of Ukrainian citizens in Russian controlled regions. Not sure how much I trust it. The whole article also only refers to ‘planned’ or ‘proposed’ internment of Ukrainian with the major source being that untrustworthy YouTube video. Reference 5 no longer exists, while reference 6 doesn’t load for me. Reference 2 only refers to land rewards to be given to soldiers, nothing about ethnic cleansing.
The guy isn’t even a politician. What would anything he says prove the Ukrainian government is participating in ethnic cleansing? Also, someone else in the thread translated it as to punish those who have committed crimes in territories that were occupied by Russia. Which one is more accurate?
No sources provided. A tweet doesn’t mean anything without proper sources. It’s even showing a map from a 2003 survey while talking about Maidan Coup in 2014. Why would you trust someone that barely care about being accurate?
The article is about overuse of force and illegal methods from both sides of the Ukrainian SBU and pro-Russian separatist. It focuses mostly on what the Ukrainians did. It’s bad, very bad, but none of them suggests ethnic cleansing like what you say. They are using illegal means to fight the war, which both sides committed. Neither side is morally above the other, so why would this be justification for Russia’s invasion?
No actual proof that Ukraine bombed the residential neighbourhood. The article claims Ukraine bombed it’s residents to place blame on Russia. That’s the most conspiratorial accusation I’ve heard yet. Since the claim is from the separatist side, I’d be stupid to trust such a claim.
You sure that’s an apartment complex? Some are claiming it’s actually a police station. Maybe you can try and verify it first since the video doesn’t really provide any proof other than what it said.
Finally, still no proof Ukraine is performing ethnic cleansing, nor that Russia liberated millions from ethnic cleansing to justify their invasion.
Enforcing the use of Ukrainian languange for official use, while not a wholly positive thing, is not ethnic cleansing.
In your opinion. I think it’s part of a slew of initiatives that constitute ethnic cleansing. Why do you think the fascist regime that reveres Nazis are doing this not wholly positive thing?
it suspiciously only captions the part that said things about filtration of Ukrainian citizens in Russian controlled regions. Not sure how much I trust it. The whole article also only refers to ‘planned’ or ‘proposed’ internment of Ukrainian with the major source being that untrustworthy YouTube video. Reference 5 no longer exists, while reference 6 doesn’t load for me. Reference 2 only refers to land rewards to be given to soldiers, nothing about ethnic cleansing.
It’s not suspicious for a piece to focus on the most relevant part of the allegation. So they only planned or proposed internment of minorities? That’s okay then. Where was this land supposed to come from that they were going to give to the soldiers?
We can go on about this all day but you’re not going to accept anything that I provide. You stance amounts to: “They’ve been doing a lot of things that are very similar to ethnic cleansing but totally aren’t because I don’t like calling it that.”
We both have different opinions, I think it’s very clear what’s been going on there. You just need to look at classroom scenarios like this one. If this was happening in China I’m sure you’d be up in arms.
Obviously I don’t know everyone’s political histories. But most people around me IRL who supported the idea of going into Iraq and Afghanistan (they were kind of blurred into one conflict) said, ‘never again’ and have been quite anti-war ever since.
A few of those backtracked and said, ‘well, maybe one more time’ when it came to Libya. Then afterwards, they said, ‘we really mean “never again” this time’.
But Ukraine has sent almost everyone into a frenzy for war. I had assumed that after Iraq, especially—which exposed the depth of lying that NATO is willing to sink to—that nobody would believe NATO’s version of the truth again. How naive I was.
I wouldn’t even mind if they (not necessarily Jaysyn, whom I don’t know) still disbelieved Russia’s narrative. In fact, I’d welcome it. A little healthy skepticism would lead to far better politics. All I see is skepticism against Russia but total faith in NATO. Where has critical thinking gone?
To disbelieve Russia’s narrative only to accept NATO’s? Wtf did I miss? I don’t think gullibility covers it. As you say, it must be constant and clever propaganda. I suppose they have the money for it, considering how much they have to gain if they can beat the drum of war.
Edit: grammar
I’m in the same boat as you are. What has me really shocked is how my European friends are in full “support the troops” mode now. What’s really surprising is how all their arguments almost always follow the same simplistic dualist thinking (“so you think Ukraine should just give up?”, “but it’s a democracy”, “but pUtLeR will take Poland next”, “you’re just spurting Russian propaganda”) and how people basically ignore all of your arguments just to call you a supporter of an “evil imperialist terror regime”.
I wish people would’ve learned their lesson by abandoning the media that’s obviously been lying to everyone for the past decades.
After laughing at USians for nigh on twenty years while saying, ‘those guys never learn their lesson, they love guns and spend ridiculous amounts of money on wars of their own making yet they can’t afford schools or hospitals.’ Turns out, Europeans aren’t so exceptional; when it comes to the crunch, all it takes is one month of news cycle and many people are happy to let themselves be fooled, once, twice, as many times as it takes. For shame.
Who knew this guy was an inspiring philosopher. Tbf to most irl people I know, most people are just aghast at the war and would like it to stop. Their opinion on NATO hasn’t changed; they just believe what NATO and it’s mouthpieces say about Russia.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=rQ6N-sb7SVQ
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
I love when they call me a republican for saying we shouldn’t keep sending weapons to war.
What’s striking about it is how they have no comebacks, they have no arguments at all expect name-calling. You can show them all the evidence in the world and they’ll just call you names.
Simple minded morons.Normies.Nah, no need for name calling. It’s just effective propaganda and it works best on normies.
You’re right, I need to be more patient with them.
Where’s your evidence for people being ethnically cleansed in Ukraine, that Russia only invaded to free these people, and that they managed to free millions of people from ethnic cleansing? Show several sources for each claim, please.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/25/ukraine-adopts-law-enforcing-use-of-ukrainian-in-public-life
https://www.voltairenet.org/article184430.html
https://twitter.com/JohnEdgarCarter/status/1627231891345514498
https://twitter.com/Kanthan2030/status/1632366929745940480
https://thesaker.is/a-disturbing-trend-in-the-ukraine/
https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Donbass-Update-Ukraine-Continues-to-Shell-Residential-Areas-20220224-0004.html
https://twitter.com/ricwe123/status/1673686231064952834
I have more if you want.
Enforcing the use of Ukrainian languange for official use, while not a wholly positive thing, is not ethnic cleansing.
The YouTube video doesn’t even have complete captioning. It suspiciously only captions the part that said things about filtration of Ukrainian citizens in Russian controlled regions. Not sure how much I trust it. The whole article also only refers to ‘planned’ or ‘proposed’ internment of Ukrainian with the major source being that untrustworthy YouTube video. Reference 5 no longer exists, while reference 6 doesn’t load for me. Reference 2 only refers to land rewards to be given to soldiers, nothing about ethnic cleansing.
The guy isn’t even a politician. What would anything he says prove the Ukrainian government is participating in ethnic cleansing? Also, someone else in the thread translated it as to punish those who have committed crimes in territories that were occupied by Russia. Which one is more accurate?
No sources provided. A tweet doesn’t mean anything without proper sources. It’s even showing a map from a 2003 survey while talking about Maidan Coup in 2014. Why would you trust someone that barely care about being accurate?
The article is about overuse of force and illegal methods from both sides of the Ukrainian SBU and pro-Russian separatist. It focuses mostly on what the Ukrainians did. It’s bad, very bad, but none of them suggests ethnic cleansing like what you say. They are using illegal means to fight the war, which both sides committed. Neither side is morally above the other, so why would this be justification for Russia’s invasion?
No actual proof that Ukraine bombed the residential neighbourhood. The article claims Ukraine bombed it’s residents to place blame on Russia. That’s the most conspiratorial accusation I’ve heard yet. Since the claim is from the separatist side, I’d be stupid to trust such a claim.
You sure that’s an apartment complex? Some are claiming it’s actually a police station. Maybe you can try and verify it first since the video doesn’t really provide any proof other than what it said.
Finally, still no proof Ukraine is performing ethnic cleansing, nor that Russia liberated millions from ethnic cleansing to justify their invasion.
In your opinion. I think it’s part of a slew of initiatives that constitute ethnic cleansing. Why do you think the fascist regime that reveres Nazis are doing this not wholly positive thing?
It’s not suspicious for a piece to focus on the most relevant part of the allegation. So they only planned or proposed internment of minorities? That’s okay then. Where was this land supposed to come from that they were going to give to the soldiers?
We can go on about this all day but you’re not going to accept anything that I provide. You stance amounts to: “They’ve been doing a lot of things that are very similar to ethnic cleansing but totally aren’t because I don’t like calling it that.”
We both have different opinions, I think it’s very clear what’s been going on there. You just need to look at classroom scenarios like this one. If this was happening in China I’m sure you’d be up in arms.