i can’t even guess as to why they went quiet. not one guess at all. we will never know.
edit: well they’re not quiet now once they get called out
There sure are a lot of people trying to blame the left because their strategy of appealing to the middle failed.
Well yeah, otherwise they’d have to consider actually changing their shit strategy
Even after all this the DNC are already bowing down to the fascist position because they lost because they were “too woke”.
This is when the democrats were already running a far right platform of “we want to fund the police, not defund them”, following Trump’s border policy, “most lethal army”, “Israel must expand its borders”, “I’ll have a Republican in my cabinet”. And they weren’t “woke” at all. Kamala threw trans people in the trash saying “we’ll follow the law” when it comes to trans issues. It was the Republicans who were running hundreds of millions of dollars worth of attack ads on trans people and democrats weren’t saying shit.
The DNC have once again failed to learn and are looking for a “centrist” chair, doing exactly the same thing of shutting down leftist voices and trying to appeal to and compromise with the fascists instead of listening to people like Bernie and AOC.
You’d think after they utterly failed and managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and get an out and proud fascist elected they would finally learn that they need to address the real issues that affect all working class people.
The ratchet effect is real.
The Republican critique of the democrats is kind of right in a way in that they are just the same rich people not doing anything about the cost of living and only using identity politics to “virtue signal”. They’re right wingers with rainbow flags. That doesn’t do much for oppressed minorities except make us the target of attacks. What would benefit queer and other oppressed minorities more is build a society in which we can afford homes to live in, food to eat, access to healthcare. But they want to make it all about pronouns because that is easy for them to look like they’re someone “on the left”, when economically they’re not on the left at all.
There’s really no hope with the DNC. We just need to organize in our own communities because the democrats certainly aren’t coming to save anyone.
they need to address the real issues that affect all working class people.
But of course this would mean clawing back some concessions from the capitalist class, and they own both parties, so…nope.
The so called rachet effect is because the left never shows up, so the Dems go to the center to find voters. The left doesn’t like this so they cry rachet.
Is there data about the 2024 election showing this available already? Because the 2020 data doesn’t support that.
Voted but voted for who? Jill Stein? I’m obviously saying they didn’t show up for Dems.
And the difference I see between right and left are about the same. Like those 4 points for left and right are really pretty much the same percentage. And that’s percentage, so it’s what I’ve said before that either 1) the left doesn’t exist (or is tiny), or 2) they don’t show up. Either way.
And finally I think Biden won because he went to the center and got those voters. The stressed sideliners in that graphic.
It wasn’t obvious, plenty of people simply say that the left doesn’t vote despite the fact they’re some of the most engaged voters out there.
You would think that courting the most dedicated voting demographic on your side of the aisle would be a positive if they weren’t already mostly voting for you anyway, but I’m not the kind of brilliant political machine that can lose elections to Trump twice. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah it was obvious I’m saying the left doesn’t show up for the dems when it’s a 2 party system.
You would think that courting the most dedicated voting demographic
They’re either tiny or they don’t show up for the Dems. Every time the dems (jfc do I have to add that every time?) rely on the left, they lose.
lose elections to Trump twice.
Hillary said she’d have a map room to fight climate change. You know that existential issue that the left totally says it will show up for for the dems, right? And they didn’t show up for the Dems.
Biden saw that and ran center. And he won. But Biden did left things anyway. And what did polls show? That the left wasn’t going to show up for the Dems.
Harris relied on the left to show up for the Dems and they couldn’t even do that for the dems when their own human rights and democracy was on the ticket.
The only time the Dems win is when they go to the center. After this, thy will never ever rely on the left again, because they never show up for the Dems.
I hope you see why people don’t add for the Dems every single time. Because it’s a pain in the ass and a mess.
Ignore, misread parent
Idk. I’m sure the cheneys endorsement brought out dozens of voters.
Couldn’t have said it better. This post is pure cringe but the op is a perfect example of why Democrats lost.
Naaah. What’s cringe are the smug pseudo-intellectual “trolley problem” gEnOciDe accusers that didn’t do shit but sit on their thumbs while the rest of us tried to save democracy.
Now they all get to blame the people that acted while smugly admitting that they chose not to?
An estimated 90 million people chose not to vote. Of those 90 million were third party supporting clowns that chose not to vote because they knew their candidate didn’t stand a chance. Also among those 90 million were protest-voting clowns that chose not to vote because their last two remaining brain cells were too busy fighting over third place.
There is ZERO logic or intelligence in accusing the people that actually tried and did something to avoid a shitty outcome while arrogantly having not done jack shit about it.
You aren’t saving democracy dude lmao
I don’t think you can save something you didn’t have to begin with tbh
I thought the people analyzing the election as a single-iteration trolley problem were primarily Harris supporters? [Pull lever] = Harris, [don’t pull] = Trump, right?
This is you. Your ‘But Trump’ strategy got you Trump twice now.
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So you tried saving democracy by… doing nothing and in the end, everyone lost. And I don’t recall ever supporting genocide, mentioning anything even remotely supportive of genocide, or even so much as hinting at that possibility of being an okay thing to do for any reason.
Voting for someone committing genocide and advocating for someone committing genocide IS supporting genocide.
There sure are a lot of people that didn’t do jack shit and think they have a place to blame anyone.
I wasn’t super fond of the democrat’s platform either man, but I definitely wanted Not Fascism and Some Semblance of Human Rights to win.
Now we have nothing, and I have to make plans to figure out how to get my girlfriend out of the country if she ever needs reproductive care. Great job!
Well hopefully blaming progressives instead of the people who actually voted for trump makes you feel better at least?
A party that insists we have to support genocide is already fascist and has no regard for human rights except to use as bargaining chips to get votes. Sorry.
There is more than one topic to consider. If they both are truly the same in your mind on that topic maybe look at other factors that heavily impact people? Voting for a 3rd party who has no chance of winning literally does nothing.
Yeah so Republicans. Great job.
News flash, neoliberals are already fascist, they are just better at hiding it. They even endorsed Dick fucking Cheney.
‘But Trump’ got you Trump twice now, and you’re blaming the people that tried to save you from yourself.
Children try to help with tasks they are incapable of doing as well, that does not mean we should alter our actions to cater to them.
How has this worked out so far?
You got Trump elected twice.
Good job, if that was the intent.
Your child analogy is sophistry trying to pin responsibility for the DNC’s failures on others to preserve the paycheck of checks notebook oh yeah, the campaign manager of John Edwards failed primary campaign who then went to work for Clinton in 2016 and Harris in 2024.
You’re carrying the water for people who continue to fail up and then fail using the same strategy that failed them before.
Good job.
But… I’m guessing you’re not aware of the whole DNC consultant class that continues to drive failing campaigns that fail to get votes but succeed in getting billionaires contributions that get given to the consultant class so they can buy their next yacht. None of this is hidden either, it is public.
Which makes the irony of an ignorant person like you repeating the lines that fail to win votes but maintains the jobs of the people failing calling other people children.
EDIT: You’re like a musk fanboi with a paid for blue checkmark. Difference is that the musk fanboi at least knows they’re a fanboi.
You seem to have extrapolated quite a lot from such a brief comment. Is it possible you may have misstepped in some of your assumptions here?
Did you call the people pointing out the DNC was headed for disaster children, or were you calling the people who failed at their job children?
The children are the people vehemently demanding the DNC unilaterally employ their chosen platform, under the pretense that it would instantly solve their problems, and then subsequently abstaining out of protest. The political landscape is more complicated than that.
I’ve said elsewhere, elections are won on popularity, not policy. If the DNC unilaterally shifts to a pro-worker platform, all their wealthy donors shift to attack ads against them. Adopting more popular policies can ironically lose them votes as those policies get misrepresented to voters by propagandists.
Add to that the habit of progressives to abstain when a platform isn’t perfectly catered to them, and you have an impossible situation where you’re trying to court multiple conflicting demographics while the financial support you once had has been turned against you.
Egocentrism is a defining American quality.
?
Your point?
Nothing could be more egocentric than believing every opinion different from your own can just be reduced to egocentrism. Maybe it’s time for a healthy dose of self awareness…
“All Opinions Are Equal”
Consider the proposition that all people’s opinions hold equal value. No one’s opinion is better or more valid than anyone else’s.
Hope this helps.
I’m not convinced the left was ever going to show up for any candidate. They’re already castigating Bernie, of all people. They’ve already purged AOC.
From what I learned it seems there is absolutely no limit to the amount of purity testing that seems to happen on the left. In the meantime, Republicans are marching us lockstep into direct fascism. So we can’t get anything done because none of the dnc candidates are perfect. Meanwhile, Republicans literally have no standards.
Um. Leftists vote at the highest rate of any polity.
There’s just not many of us.
The DNCs “standards” weren’t impressive to millions of center / center-left voters who voted for Biden.
Probably because they nakedly shilled themselves to anyone with a checkbook. Had no stances, offered no solutions, and came across as wildly out of touch.
Imagine how a tax credit for first time home buyers sounds to someone who can’t afford groceries.
You’re kind of proving my point. We’re now left with the alternative. Again: because we couldn’t be bothered to show up to vote. That home buyer tax credit was one of many policies. Like the child tax credit was a really big deal. But again, here we are tearing her platform apart while the repubs are marching lockstep.
Trump gets to coast on the guarantee that his base will show up no matter any-thing. He is most vile person that ever held office (maybe Jackson is up there with him). But the DNC candidate has to thread carefully and reach near perfection or else face endless barrage of criticism from within.
The two parties seem to have vastly different standards and that’s why we can never move further left. The right wins on every turn regardless while the left is sticking their nose up because the DNC candidate is just never left enough.
Yes when you cultivate a brainwashed mob of barely literate hateful fools you can manipulate them pretty easily.
Frankly I’ve abandoned democracy. We aren’t responsible enough to keep it and it’s grown too onerous to manage. It’s a garden that has overgrown our house. I doubt what’s coming will be better but hatching is rarely a good thing from the viewpoint of the eggshell.
Right. But unfortunately that’s our reality. We have to build up. If we ever want to move that Overton window… well now it jumped ten steps to the right. It doesn’t go back and forth between each cabinet. It just keeps sliding into the right because again: the right has no standards and is happy to march in lockstep while we quibble over which progressive policy just isn’t good enough.
I fear we deserve to watch the nation burn because like you said, democracy requires vigilance
I say she relied on the left coming out for abortion rights and democracy. They couldn’t even come out for that.
Abortion rights initiatives won in 7 out of 10 states where they were on the ballot.
And got 57% in FL, but needed 60% to pass
Fuck national rights amiright.
Their main failure was choosing a half black, half Indian women as their candidate. That in it self is 3 failures. You can have ONE of those things. 2 is highly improbable, 3 is impossible.
This has nothing to do with how I think Harris will perform as president but more to do with how racist and misogynistic this country is.
I truly thing Walz would have done better at the polls.
I think you might just be racist and sexist if that’s your immediate thoughts.
Don’t push yours on everyone else.
Trump voters are literally waving Nazi flags and wearing misogynistic shirts.
Explain your logic to me of how you came to the conclusion that someone calling out racism and sexism is actually racist and sexist themselves.
Trump voters were never ever going to vote for Harris or any Democratic candidate. It was pure hubris and Folly to think that they could snag some.
Trying to court Trump voters was definitely a mistake. The strategy should have been to energize progressives.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. John Fetterman would have won easily. Americans pick based on appearance.
Ah yes, another centrist. That will surely work this time.
Centrist is a label based on a candidate’s position on issues.
I claim that doesn’t matter. Image matters.
Fetterman is a large white male that makes Trump look weak. That’s all that matters.
Trump can’t even run again
??? This is about the election that just happened.
I’d say they vote based on matching identities “(s)he’s like me”.
It’s so weird. Gaza is extremely important and deserving of the attention. It’s genocide, and it’s horrific. But is no one else important? Because we can’t save Gaza immediately, it’s really better to set outselevs on fire so we can burn together? Like, real talk, Harris will be fine. Biden will be fine. It’s our friends and neighbors who are going to be deported, harassed, laid off, homeless and scared for a minimum of four years.
I wouldn’t say they’re gone though. I’ve been down voted, told “my kind/type” are all talk, or that I’m okay with murder, I voted for genocide, the usual. But I couldn’t sit and do nothing.
But I guess this is what they wanted. The dems have been taught a lesson, we’re moving headfirst into a dictatorship, and Gaza is no safer, but their conscious is clear, somehow.
I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if they are Isreali or Russian psy ops accounts (or at least useful idiots that have bought the psy ops).
When the war started, Lemmy was overrun by the “criticism of Isreal is antisemetic” accounts. That was rejected pretty hard. Those guys disappeared, and the “never genocide” people took their place.
It almost seems like a change in tactics to achieve the same goal.
the “criticism of Israel is antisemitism” accounts are gone because they were banned. Zionism and the insistence that a genocidal state is indivisible from an entire ethnic group is racism, and against most instance’s TOS.
“never genocide” content does not break TOS and so has lasted since october 7th through today. to the uninformed eye this dynamic might look like a change in tactic but really it’s just two different groups, one which got banned after a few days or weeks and one which did not.
just correcting your “change in tactics”/“it’s astroturfing” narrative. i don’t think it holds up in comparison to a much more likely explanation, and i might even use the word ludicrous to describe your argument unless you can provide further evidence.
Considering the fediverse’s low market share compared to non-federated alternatives, I’d be suprised if any malicious actors waste time and money running a psyops here. Like, you reach more people on Reddit for the same ammount of effort.
thank you for saying this skskkssk. Occam’s razor: is it more likely that foreign psy-ops have incredibly poor cost-benefit analysis skills (while excelling in everything else), or that a couple dozen people have deeply held beliefs that led them to be vocal in the midst of tragedy?
call me crazy but the latter narrative makes a lot fewer assumptions.
You’d reach more people on bigger platforms, but it is easier to steer the conversation with smaller groups. So I don’t think its totally clear-cut where the best psyops targets would be.
It was 100% astroturfing, 20% people falling for bullshit. Sounds like politics
15% concentrated power of shill.
“criticism of Isreal is antisemetic” accounts. That was rejected pretty hard. Those guys disappeared, and the “never genocide” people took their place.
So let me get this straight… you think that hasbara accounts turned into anti genocide accounts… thats your brilliant theory? they just all switched sides?
I dont even know what to say to logic like that.
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Absolutely! There is no doubt. Such fallacies is what they do. Mostly they go with “they are all the same”, then take an absolute approach attack on the principles of the left(er) political party.
I appreciate the level headed take.
Because we can’t save Gaza immediately
What do you mean by this? That the president can’t or that voters can’t because their choice is voting genocide or worse genocide?
The dems have been taught a lesson
Based on the response of the media, and elected democrats, no they haven’t lol. They’re blaming the left.
but their conscious is clear, somehow
I think this is reductive and does not acknowledge why many people did not vote democrat.
Out of curiosity, what wouldn’t you be willing to compromise on? If I had a party wanting to kill your mom and dad and another who just wants to kill your dad, would you make that compromise?
I guess we could start saying to those people “I guess you hate LGBT” and “you’re complicit with refugees being deported” and “good job putting the last nail in the coffin of reproductive rights”. I mean, somehow they couldn’t say shit about those issues, just “OMG JOR BIDEN GENOCIDE” and ignored that letting Trump take office would be worse for Palestine as well as terrible about the aforementioned issues. Odd.
It’s our friends and neighbors who are going to be deported, harassed, laid off, homeless and scared for a minimum of four years.
Already happening under biden. 🙄
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Real Talk, I’m getting real tired of everyone from the vaguely right of center to the farthest reaches of the left getting involved in this shit slinging blame game.
I legit don’t care anymore who you voted for (edit: so long as it wasn’t Trump I mean. But even then, time to start your redemption arc if you did). We are past the election and now all share the same immediate issues.
Folks who abstained from voting (or voted 3rd party) because you couldn’t stomach the lesser of two evils, good news, that choice is gone. You can stop parroting the idea that anyone who voted Blue did so “in support of genocide”. It should be clear by now those who voted Blue really were just doing their best in a bad situation, they are not your enemies.
Folks who voted Blue because you believe supporting the lesser evil is in service of the greater good. Good news, that burden is also gone. You can stop parroting the idea that someone who can’t stomach voting for people who would play politics with genocide is really just a tankie or a bot. Not every one is willing to play game theory with people’s lives, that doesn’t mean they are your enemies.
Anyone who truly wants to push for solidarity and human rights for all is an ally of mine. And I propose we bury the hatchet, preferably in the objectives of fascists, before its too late.
They’re easy targets. Blame the abstainers and third party voters and you don’t have to confront the legitimate failures of your party and campaign.
That’s very true, and we see it election cycle after election cycle. But for many who voted Blue, the Dem’s are not “their party”. They were playing the best hand they were dealt in a terrible situation. And while I get feeling sick to your stomach over playing that hand when the chips are peoples lives, I also get the cold calculus some people are willing to make for the greater good.
Frankly, Abstainers and Lesser Of Two Evil Voters have been, imho, radicalized against each other due to the contentious nature of the election. I don’t believe the camps were so separate a year ago.
If we all want to keep dying on this hill, well we certainly can and will. But I’ve talked to folks on both sides, and they largely want the same outcomes. Even if we all didn’t agree on the solution.
The election proved that divided we are not a larger group than the fascist collation in this country. But I’m willing to be combined we are.
And we don’t have to argue over the election anymore, so unless we want to find another hill to die on, I once again propose we agree with pushing towards are shared goals.
These hills are all they’re going to let us have. We’ll keep eating our own in the same valley every four years.
My greatest fear is that you are right.
Why not both?
Because it’s not a useful strategy. Convince them they’re wrong and they’ll shame themselves.
Nobody has denied that there are problems in the dnc, but the fault is still largely on the voters.
Nobody has denied there are problems with me, but the fault is still largely on women.
You’re in denial. Enjoy your drinks in the Cheney bar.
I am willing to move forward with centrists as coalition partners with the left-- only because neither of us can win alone, but after this election they have to come to the table as coalition partners, NOT leaders.
Progressives need to leave the Democratic party. Voters know that neither progressives or centrists have the numbres to win alone, but Progressives have popular issues to run on, and centrists have nothing but hisorical momentum thats stopped pretty cold at the moment. All the “anyone but trump” people will still be there next election (assuming there is one) and they will vote for leadership that is promising good things. And progressives will win. So I say lets formally split, and if the centrists come along theyd be welcome, and if they’d rather go it alone then they should get used to losing because they have no other future.
For long term political goals, I’m fully on board with you.
For immediate resistance to fascism, we are already all on the same side, or so I hope.
I think it is important to point out the failings of others. Otherwise they may not connect the dots and learn from their mistakes.
Sometimes a mistake is innocent, say you forgot to zip up your fly. It’s important to know you forgot to do so as it could be very socially embarrassing.
Sometimes one could accidentally cut someone off in traffic because they didn’t see them. A good honk notifies them of their mistake and will hopefully drive home the fact that they probably need to pay better attention to traffic.
Pointing out that abstaining and or choosing not to vote enabled the election of the greater of two evils is equally important.
Rock on OP. Never let them forget!
Then point at the FAILED DEMOCRAT PARTY instead of voters. When biden announced he was running for re-election their own internal polling showed he’d lose. They don’t fucking care, it’s all theatre to them. Their corporate owners are happy and the donations continue to flow in from foolish rubes like you who will gladly vote blue no matter who right off a fucking cliff.
Kamala Harris spent a billion dollars and still fucking lost. But yeah go blame voters that will ensure the same thing happens in 2028 should we be so lucky to pretend to play democracy again. And it is pretend. Because if you don’t vote correctly you’re the worst person to ever exist.
I’ve been repeating this thought exercise because people seem to have a hard time delineating when blame goes the other way.
Bob is standing next to a bomb, and a fuse is sparking down. Jill, on the other side of a fence and reliant on Bob, lifts a huge very expensive sign for Bob to stamp out the fuse. Bob does not stamp out the fuse, bomb goes off.
Who is at fault; Bob for not stamping out the fuse, or Jill for not getting a high-amp bullhorn to inform Bob he should stamp the fuse?
Feel free to vary the analogy, but the question would extend to: When does it become Bob’s fault that he didn’t take action?
It remains the democrats fault for:
• gaslighting the public about inflation
• gaslighting the public about not one but two new wars including a genocide!
• refusing to run a small D democratic primary that they didn’t rig since checks notes 2004 (they tried to rig 2008 for Hillary but failed because Obama was so charismatic they couldn’t stop him)
• refusing to run a primary at all in 2024, despite biden promising when elected in 2020 to be a one term president, and his own polling showed he’d lose in 2024
• last minute Hail Mary of replacing biden with Harris despite not a single vote being cast for her
• no platform other than “we’re not trump! Elect an anti-democratic party to save democracy! Trumps the next hitler!!!”
• didn’t bother campaigning in swing states just like Hillary in 2016
Gee I wonder why they lost the election. Couldn’t be that they continuously gaslight the public. Couldn’t be that they didn’t hold a primary (sorry but RFK Jr vanity run is not a primary). No, no. Voters just voted wrong!
But don’t worry! We have to save dEmOcRaCy! Let’s just roll over and hand the power over to trump because he won fair and square and optics and politeness are more important than saving the country! You see, the democrat party doesn’t actually give a shit, if they were serious, they would have their own January 6th. They’re not serious. They’re gonna fundraise off of it. Just like roe v Wade!
no platform other than “we’re not trump! Elect an anti-democratic party to save democracy! Trumps the next hitler!!!
Yeah? Why do you need a platform beyond this?
It was a competent former prosecutor vs a serially lying violent felon.
‘But Trump’ got you Trump twice. At this point you’re arguing against the concrete proof that your view WON’T WORK to justify blaming people that tried to save you from yourself.
You, in this case, is the DNC and everyone else blaming voters for the failure of the DNC.
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Why do you need a platform beyond this?
They shouldn’t have even include the democracy angle in their campaign. You cannot run on “Trump is a threat to democracy,” when you own administration has completely failed to put the man behind bars.
Imagine the insanity if Trump, in 2020, had ran on a campaign of taxes being too low, after he had just slashed them. That is the level of idiocy the Harris campaign was trying to run on.
You had four years to put the guy behind bars. You don’t get to then point to him as a threat to democracy, since you yourself clearly do not consider him to be a threat to democracy.
Actions. Speak. Louder. Than. Words.
Jill set and lit the bomb, and lifts up a big expensive sign saying that defusing bombs is antisemitic and what Putin wants. Bob tries as hard as he can to put out the bomb anyway, but Jill made sure to design it such that Bob can’t defuse it. So, once it’s clear his efforts are futile, Bob runs as fast as he can away from Jill and the bomb, and the bomb blows up.
When does it become Jill’s fault that she did actively take harmful actions?
If that delusion makes feel better about enabling a facist, then you probably aren’t ready to come to terms with your failure.
Sooner or later, one way or another, it will come for you.
Continue losing elections.
If Dems continue loosing elections they will definitely come for you.
Maybe the dems who claim to be my ally should consider that when holding unpopular positions that don’t get them elected. They don’t care.
Cool, I can’t wait to see what this Republican President does for whatever position it is you care about.
I hope Trump goes HARD!
This might actually be the single best comment in this thread.
I’d rather keep up the blame game, ngl. Arguments didn’t work on the disingenuous pricks who helped get us here. I don’t care if they personally made a difference or not, I care that they were utterly unreasonable, and the change in circumstances won’t change that.
Speaking to anyone who could’ve voted for Kamala but didn’t: I don’t care about solidarity anymore; you didn’t have solidarity with us when we needed you. Y’all are fucking stupid and I don’t want to deal with that. I realize that’s not the moral choice, but RN for the first time in over a decade I don’t care about that. I’m angry. Maybe in a few more days or weeks or months that will change, maybe not. Right now I’m focusing on making sure all my remaining friends are able to get somewhere safe if the need arises and keep hope kindled in their hearts. Maybe that means other people who need my help more will suffer, die, or fall victim to their own despair, but I just don’t have the wherewithal to make that my priority.
I don’t care about solidarity anymore
Never did. Solidarity means you aren’t willing to sacrifice marginalized groups to get ahead or save your own skin. If you accept sacrificing Palestinians, you’d accept sacrificing any other group by the exact same “lesser-evilist” logic. What value does that kind of “solidarity” have?
To be fair, for many the choice to save or sacrifice Palestine never felt like it was on the table. For those people, the choice was between making a deal with the devil to save as many marginalized groups as possible, or sacrificing said marginalized groups to keep their “hands clean”.
I believe both sides of this argument felt like they were pushing for solidarity the best way they knew how. And due to the emotionally charged nature of this choice, we wound up losing all solidarity ironically.
If you truly believe in solidarity, then try to see the human on the other side of the screen and be the first to reach out and mend the cracks.
Here’s the thing. I’m trans. On our own, we represent a tiny sliver of the voting public, not worth considering from a strategic standpoint. But there are plenty of other groups of people in the same boat. Together, we are worth considering - but only together. “What force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one?” If we try to build a coalition in which we abandon any group that the democratic politicians deem too much of a liability to be worth protecting, that is no coalition at all, and I well understand that after Palestinians, I will be next. The very same logic that these people were willing to deploy against them can and will be deployed to justify abandoning me and mine.
What advantage do I gain from joining together in a “coalition” in “solidarity” with these fair-weather friends who will drop us at the first sign of trouble? Honestly, they are more of a liability than an asset, because if I’m buddying up with them, it damages my credibility among potentially more reliable people who have good reason not to trust them. I would rather do it the right way and build trust even if it means building from the ground up.
I appreciate what you’re trying to do, but these disagreements are meaningful and important. This election may be over, but the question remains of what the appropriate strategy is going forward, whether to build a coalition that will treat an offense against one as an offense against all, and ensure that anyone who comes for any part of it is unelectable, or whether to “vote blue no matter who” as we are picked off one-by-one, in exchange for temporary, short term security for some.
I get your points and they are well taken. Just be careful not to swing at ghosts so hard that you hit those who would have made great allies.
Not every one who voted Blue is a “fair-weather friend”. Frankly, I bet you would be surprised with how many would be willing to push for something better if given the opportunity.
And sometimes, people just need to be given the chance. The disagreements are meaningful, but the shit slinging is not. And I’m afraid we have traded in meaningful discussion for pure shit slinging.
Every ‘Vote Blue No Matter Who’ absolutely are fair weather friends. it means you don’t actually understand what you’re voting for and have no principles for which you’d hold the line. If you wouldn’t hold the line for a group experiencing a genocide you are not worth putting our group on the line for.
You can absolutely continue to try papering over what the DNC and dems like the OP just did to the palestinians but there isnt an argument on this blue earth that will result in my forgiving of it. The only option for those individuals is repentance.
Oh, okay, well I just checked with all the “Vote Blue No Matter Who” people, and everyone repented. Crazy I know, but every single one. Completed the repentance ceremony and everything. So we can all agree to work towards the greater good now right?
What’s that? Still no!? Is that because you were never arguing in good faith? Wow, I sure am shocked.
Look friend, I’m not interested in dying on pointless hills. Not while there are still things worth fighting for. If you have found your hill, I wish you luck holding it.
Hey look it’s one of the problems.
Please explain how Trump will bring in peace and stop Israel from hurting anymore Palestinians, since that’s the only way your dumbass argument would even be coherent
Never claimed that and explained my logic plenty of times elsewhere, not interested in doing so with a low-effort troll.
Sounds like you have your hands full dealing with getting you and yours to safety. Good luck, I wish you all the best in that endeavor!
I can’t blame you for being angry, but just try not to let that anger turn you into the thing you are angry at. Someone who stands idly by when someone needs help you could provide.
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> is subjected to any criticism what so ever
> instantly falls into elaborate fantasy
> shares fantasy with the public, for some reason
> believes own fantasy, thinks others are insane
> publicly and loudly tells people “I’m ignoring you”
Seems about right.
Time is linear. The Democratic party backed a genocide BEFORE the election.
Lotta usage of the word solidarity when you were reliant on a people that the Democratic candidate campaigned on continuing the genocide of.
Kinda seems like your definition of solidarity is ‘support me no matter what.’
>Lemmy.ml
> Projecting
No surprises.
Look at that, a jackass fine with genocide falling back to ad hominem, because their screed of “I’m done with solidarity” when they had none in the first place gets pointed out for the bullshit it was.
I’ll be sure to tell my trans friends it’s okay that they’re getting thrown under the bus next because Leate_Wonceslace is done with solidarity. The Dems are already explicitly blaming them for the loss.
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“Because of the likes of you” I’m gonna need you to explain that one.
Friendly reminder that Joe Biden is still the president and could stop sending weapons to Israel right now if he wanted to. But he doesn’t.
Dems failed and people who abhor genocide unfortunately had little to do with it, though listening to Lemmy libs you’d think they personally destroyed her campaign
They need someone to blame. Taking on blame themselves for ignoring voters? That’s preposterous! Those votes are clearly owed in the democracy that they’re the saviors of.
I have been seeing this online, leftist, superposition where people not voting Democrat, to protest the genocide, are not a significant enough portion of the vote, to have tanked the election for the DNC, and that enough of the 15 million who sat out clearly did so due to the genocide, to make them lose. I have seen it argued both ways from a number of the same people, in different threads, when the messaging behind either, works in their favor. No these people are not russian bots, they have been around lemmy, doing normal poster stuff, for a while now. They just want to not take any blame, and also claim their issue was far more universally important than it was.
“My vote for Jill Stein/My non vote for protest/etc. isn’t what killed her chance, it was people being mad about other things the DNC didn’t do well!” Then, on another post, seeing the same user name, “15 million people wouldn’t have sat out had they stopped supporting Israel!”
All the third party votes combined and given only to swing states would still end with trump winning.
Wake the fuck up. The democrats lost because they fucking suck. stop blaming voters for your elitist out to brunch pathetic excuse of a political party that’s been gaslighting the public for four years about inflation telling us not to believe our own lying eyes and how great!!! the economy is doing I mean look at these numbers!!! But these people are the type who going to work means going golfing to rub shoulders with the rest of the elite. They’re fucking clueless.
And they’re bleeding us dry with taxes while sending ALL of that money over to Israel and Ukraine. Meanwhile we have homeless starving people over here and they throw their hands up and say there’s no money. Fuck them and all their stupid ass brunch going laptop class never worked a real day in their life supporters too hung up on getting their pronouns right to actually come up with a platform that appeals to voters. “We’re not trump” is not a fucking platform. I hate trump but there is absolutely no question that these past four years I’ve been struggling far more economically under Biden than trump. Democrat party operatives too busy sniffing their own farts to read the fucking room.
Well, blaming the people for their votes wasn’t the point I was making… but ok. I was pointing out this weird behavior I have been seeing. I would say “but go off”, but you already have.
you had my upvote until your bit about pronouns. :(
learn and do better.
Im visibly queer myself and gender nonconforming. Catering to 1% of the population and turning it into a wedge issue (trans people in prison getting taxpayer funded gender reassignment surgery - a ridiculous concept that affects maybe 100 people in a country of 330 million, thanks ACLU for the gotcha) is a great way to get trump re-elected because 1% of the blue no matter who voters get their panties in a twist if people won’t play their pronoun police games. Cis people wearing pronoun placards and putting their pronouns in their email signature is about as helpful to the queer cause as painting a fucking rainbow in the street. Do nothing feel good -ism.
Pronouns and males in women’s sports are dumb wedge issues to lose an election over, just to cater to the precious feelings of 1% of the population. And now ALL of us queers are under threat.
You know what helps queer people? Focusing on the insane cost of living crisis. and that’s a winning platform that doesn’t just focus on an insignificant cultural decadence issue but rather affects most of the population. But instead biden/Harris gaslit the public about inflation and now they’re blaming everybody but themselves for the loss.
“Cis people wearing pronoun placards and putting their pronouns in their email signature” is helpful to me due to the number of (cisgender) people named Alex, Jordan, Morgan, Casey, Taylor, Avery Parker or Cameron lol.
Overall I agree with the gist of what you are saying, it’s just really fucked that you are lumping an incredible spread of wedge issues under “too hung up on getting their pronouns right.” You literally could have just said “wedge issues and messaging failures surrounding trans folk” instead of “pronouns” and I would never have commented.
Being kind!
I use pronouns as an example because it’s 1% of the population and well meaning cis liberals love to virtue signal over it and beat everyone else over the head with it in a smug sense of superiority. In reality, it doesn’t matter at all and shouldn’t even be part of a political platform. It’s bad strategy and stupid, catering to the special feelings of a tiny group of people over the realistic needs of the larger group.
When it comes to people with gender neutral names, if you’re not sure just ask. Or guess, and if you guessed wrong, apologize. Only the power tripping type are gonna get hung up on it. People misgender me all the time. I don’t care. It’s not out of malice.
Really disturbing how you are framing the acceptance of trans people, a matter of life and death, as “special feelings”?
The Republican platform is to eradicate transgender people. I absolutely will not tolerate criticism of countermessaging that does the bare minimum of calling them the gender they are. Do better.
Pronouns and males in women’s sports are dumb wedge issues to lose an election over, just to cater to the precious feelings of 1% of the population. And now ALL of us queers are under threat.
The moment the democrats take a step back on this, the republicans will take two steps forward. If we don’t fight them here they will keep coming. Give an inch and they’ll take a mile.
I agree that this shouldn’t be front and center to the campaign. It wasn’t. All they did was (somewhat) stand their ground when the republicans attacked them on it. Ceding ground would be selling out members of their own base to appease a small percentage of people who are so obsessed with us that they’ll vote to hurt us regardless of anything else on the ballot, and those people are going to vote republican regardless. The number of trans people may be small, but if we get sold out it tells every other minority that the democrats will sell them out too whenever it becomes politically convenient.
Yes, economic issues should be what democrats focus on, and yes that’s something that benefits queer people along with everyone else, but ceding ground to appease bigots is a terrible strategy.
The democrats allowed the ACLU to get a gotcha this election cycle over trans prisoners getting taxpayer funded sex reassignment surgeries. How many trans people are in prison, let alone going through with an invasive surgery while in prison? 10? 100? 1000? More than that? Unlikely. In a country of 330 million. Harris should of just deflected the answer instead of giving a sound bite and soothing the precious feelings of the out to brunch ACLU whom long ago gave up on their mission of protecting free speech. (I used to donate to them, around the election of trump or even before they started taking anti free speech positions that were socially progressive but against the concept of free speech)
I don’t disagree with you - we should fight for trans rights always because when they start chipping away at human rights they aren’t gonna stop with just trans people.
But making niche social issues a campaign focus is a losing strategy and playing by the Republican playbook. I actually wonder if the ACLU gotcha was a Republican operation or a really dumb progressive not thinking things through.
Kamala lost more because of the economy than because of Gaza. But if people want to blame protest voters, and they really, really do, then I’m happy to take advantage of that narrative because that claim only helps us by suggesting that we weild more influence than we do and are more important to win over than we are. I’m happy to point out that they’re wrong because I’m an honest person, but if they really want to push a narrative about how important and influential my faction is, then I mean, I’ll take it. “Never interrupt your enemy when they’re making a mistake.” Plus pointing out the fact that they’re only helping us is probably more likely to get them to stop than trying to appeal to the facts.
Personal opinion, it is both. Harris ran a shite campaign. Also people refused to exercise their ability to produce damage mitigation. Voting the lesser evil in the presidential election, while voting, and working, to make change locally, from the ground up, is the way to affect change in this stupid system. Don’t believe me? Really look at how the GOP got a death grip on the government, despite being a minority. Yes it took 50 years, but it worked, and they were working at the disadvantage.
Also, I spilled a glass of red wine on my desk, keyboard, micro pc, and several devices, when I moved my arm to respond to this. So fuck you!
people not voting Democrat, to protest the genocide, are not a significant enough portion of the vote, to have tanked the election for the DNC
a) yeah people are saying this.
enough of the 15 million who sat out clearly did so due to the genocide
b) no one is saying this except people who are so misinformed that they would deny a) anyway. you’re attributing the words of two separate groups of people to everyone in that group.
edit: sorry for the false assertion, corrected
@kameecoding English6•
My favorite lemmy bubble is the smug woke ( idiot leftists, who think they are smart but aren’t) who think Kamala lost because she didn’t take a stance on Gaza and people abstained in protest and not because of sexism and racism.
and to this is the direct reply
@SeattleRain English2•
That is why she lost to though. 15 million blank ballots don’t lie.
There are more people in that thread saying this in various different ways, and this is just the most recent one in my post history.
yikes ok thanks for the correction. didn’t know people were that poorly informed.
i’ll see what i can do to correct my comment in an edit, it’s obvious the user you quoted is way off base in saying the B portion of my comment. not sure if they would also say the A portion though.
edit: for anyone curious, the “15 million” that user refers to is a purported number of democrats that didn’t show up to vote. and so has nothing to do with “blank ballots.” plus that number isn’t even real apparently and it’s less, see that fact check link for more.
It’s cool, I see this a lot lately. Yeah, I am not siding with commenter one, this example was just the first in my history. No offense to you, I don’t really think this conversation is worth more work than that. I have a number of examples hidden in there though, also consider I didn’t bother commenting most of the times I saw this type of thing.
Personally, while I listen to people, and can’t but accept bigotry as part of the issue, it isn’t THE issue. However, people like Seattle here, seem to be in a bubble. My personal friends care about this, I do, it is common in most of the online spaces I am in, but when I get out into an unfiltered space, it becomes clear gaza isn’t a consideration, or is so far down the list, it might as well not be.
Personally, while I listen to people, and can’t but accept bigotry as part of the issue, it isn’t THE issue.
Agree. I heard Hasanabi frame it as, the US is certainly sexist and racist, yes, but those hurdles could have been overcome (as with Obama) by employing messaging that is appealing to the majority public who feel alienated from their labor and neighbors. And that did not happen, not nearly enough or comparably to Obama, and so racism and sexism won out.
Yes, much of the labor here voted trump due to blindly reaching out to someone they thought was a political outsider. Now they are furious that their compensation is going to be cut, and their union (this is largely manufacturing) can’t do anything, because their company can materially prove major losses in profit margins. Even the top brass, in a number of these companies, are having their contracts re-negotiated to reduce their compensation. Locally, they voted more progressive than in decades, because they saw those people as outsiders too. This goes right along with what AOC, and Bernie, are saying about people who voted for both them and trump.
Much of the people, who voted biden, and then sat this out, are older white men. People seem to think just mentioning this means you are saying it was all hate due to woman of color. However, I also see the concerns of this demographic are way different than those who would be seriously concerned about palestine. Here people are saying things akin to “the destruction of our palestine (the train wreck that poisoned palestine OH) was just a news cycle, the one on the other side of the world has been on the news for months.”
Dumb smug liberals too addicted to identity politics as an excuse for everything under the sun completely ignoring TWO WARS and RECORD INFLATION that the biden administration gaslights the public over.
I… understand that. The first commenter in the post I copypasta’d wasn’t someone I was agreeing with, nor was it me. I was just showing my most recent example of the weird behavior I have been seeing, that is all.
Sorry. Your comments formatting is confusing, my bad.
It’s both. Many, many issues have 15 people who can explain what they don’t like and try to do something about it, and then 15 million people who don’t like the same thing but can’t explain it, won’t try, only vote when they feel like it, and will never see any scolding you try to do.
Blame the at most 2 million or so antigenocide protestors, instead of the 75 million who voted for Trump. Considering Harris was short 8 million votes, it didn’t really matter.
Blame Trump voters first, but also blame Harris for running a dog shit campaign where she leaned right to pickup Republicans, and ended up picking up zero R voters while completely alienating the progressives and losing 14 million votes from Biden’s 2020 performance.
The Dems don’t seem too upset though. They would rather lose to the republicans than let progressives have any sort of power.
So let me get this straight:
The Democratic Party snubs the left— even the progressives. They court the right wing, parading the Cheneys around.
The democrats lose.
The rightwing voters get riled up by the mask-off hatred, while their politicians straight up lie to Muslims and Latino people, winning some of their votes.
The democrats lose ground across the board. Their entire turnout was depressed. No matter how many times they learned their views were losing them votes, they refuse to budge on the issues they were undoubtedly wrong about. The fuckin meme says “we didn’t vote for genocide!!!” We can all agree voting…for genocide is…bad, right?
And you’re blaming the people who were ignored and told once again to go fuck themselves? Because they couldn’t stomach voting for people publicly and unflinchingly supporting the genocide.
Not the lying fascists, not the losing party for being told they were going to fail and still failing?
This is exactly how you continue to fail and lose to fascists.
And im telling you right now. History won’t look back and say “those fools! They didn’t vote because of a teensy little genocide!” They will say “all of those people stood by while a holocaust was happening.”
Not a doubt in my mind.
Had nothing to do with it… or at least insignificantly. The Dems on a platform of “were not him” and the economy is booming… while people where hurting and got shafted by the wave of devaluation… people are angry… and the let’s keep going on the same path and change nothing and so nothing party did not get people out to vote.
It’s possible the idea that they ran a “not Trump” campaign is true enough, and that was part of the failure vs. being more to the left or vocal or any number of other things suggested. But the very fact that “not Trump” made people not show up and throw the election to him, or worse vote FOR him, says a lot about the state of the country.
I get it, people are hurting economically and somehow get blinded into promises that magic will happen. But Trump? Anyone voting this time around was around when he was in office the first time…are we that short memory? Yeah, we apparently are…repeating the same thing over and over expecting different results. And that can be applied to both sides, but one of them was the same guy.
I think you, someone who probably keeps up on the news and outrage and etc. are overestimating how much others do.
People are absorbed in their day to day life. Trump’s gonna appoint RFK to a health leadership position? That’s a far away concept with only vague implications for people who are having to take payday loans for the first time to make rent. Harris didn’t truly run a campaign of hope and change like '08 Obama.
Exactly… were not going back… to when we could afford rent?
Why? America is the country of fuck around and find out. There where no consequences, no prison time, no perp walk… there was no find out… so by extension… there must not have been a fuck around. It must have been a lot of Dems screetching about stuff but no actual smoke or fire.
Well they couldn’t punish trump or else they might ruin the fantasy that the wealthy and in charge are untouchable and they might be next for all the shit they pull.
Well it appears they’ll never figure that out and intend to lose more so in 4 more years.
Trump will have had 4 years to Putin up America by then. I’m not sure elections will matter any more by then. This is all just academic.
“Democrats lost because of this out that… They’ll never learn…” “Trump won because of that…”
Who fucking cares anymore? The fascists are in charge now.
So if the fascist are in charge does that mean you just give up? No resistance? No civil war? Just hand America over to the fascists?
… No resistance? No civil war?
Who’s going to be on my side? Trump won the popular vote. Think we can rely on ppl that can’t even bother to vote to come actually put their lives in peril for a cause? Who would I fight with and what in the fuck are we even fighting for?
I’ll be in the fight anyway, as soon as there actually is one, but Americans will need to wake the fuck up before that’s possible.
Think we can rely on ppl that can’t even bother to vote to come actually put their lives in peril for a cause?
All that needed be said on the subject.
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put their lives in peril for a cause?
I mean if liberals weren’t so willing to through palestinians under the genocide train maybe you’d have some support? start but recanting your behavior with your community. go and support people in it and you’ll be surprised.
start but recanting your behavior with your community. go and support people in it and you’ll be surprised.
You’re talking out of your ass. You don’t know me or what I do for my community and you’re being pretty self righteous. So listen here:
Too late for any of this to matter, as I’ve said. Blame liberals. Blame Democrats. Trump is in power. Now it gets worse for everyone. Maybe you’ll enjoy the revenge of watching American liberals suffer. Maybe it will outweigh the additional suffering to the Palestinians in your mind.
Personally, I was never a big fan of Biden or Kamala but I voted for both of them out of necessity. I didn’t agree with Israel’s response to the Hamas attack. I wish Biden had taken a stand. Kamala would have been better but not great. Trump is far, far worse.
Too many Americans are ignorant to the binary choice they have and they threw their vote away. Too many Americans are either hateful or gullible enough to vote for Trump. Too many are just lazy or not interested. All that ignorance and anger has given power to a narcissist fascist, who loves, I mean loves Israel. He’s in charge of a vast arsenal and the halfway serious people from his last administration won’t have anything to do with him this time. This time he’s only appointing loyalists, just like a fascist.
Trump’s going to deport anyone he can from the US right away. Israel will do whatever they want with blessings and help. Trump will try to cling to power for more than four years. The next election might not count (Putin style, Trump’s buddy). This may get worse for some time to come.
Support cuts both ways and the sane people left in America got none of it this election. Now we all face the consequences.
I like how instead of taking the sound advice to reach out within your community for support you take offense and try to rationalize your support for genocide. enjoy trump you’ve certainly earned him. makes popcorn
Isn’t that what you did when you chose not to vote?
Civil war? What kind of shit talk is this?
Sound like you’re rooting for that clusterfuck of an option.
Better to fight the civil war than to just roll over for them
Better to not roll over AND not start a civil war.
Agreed, but if you gotta take on the other, which one do you pick?
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The 2024 presidential election was like a really hairy credit card bill. Republicans ran on a platform of ignoring the debt all together and not making any payment at all, letting it get further out of hand. Democrats got blasted for proposing to make a minimum payment that did nothing toward interest. Neither choice was going to get us out of debt. But one of the choices is definitely going to bankrupt us. We could have made a payment. Now we’re in way over our head instead.
The only people making noise are the centrists looking to blame everyone but themselves for a sweep of all the levers of government, and a gradual loss of the judiciary that will doom the republic. It was an epic asswipping of historic proportions with you lot leading and owning the losing strategy. You dont even have the diginity to be embarrassed about it.
You geniuses lost voters across every single demographic except college educated whites, flatly ignored the economic hardship of the lower and middle class and told people they were delusional to talk about it, and on top of that they enabled and participated in obvious far right war crimes. You lost minority and youth support and trust across the board. And you have no way of earning it back beyond your same tired playbook of being slightly better than Trump, on just a few issues.
Even if Harris had done the right, legal, moral thing and indicated she’d halt the shipments, she still would have lost on her idiotic low-polling economic policy that polled the same as Joe Bidens presidency. So you all supported war crimes and soiled the dem name for basically no gain at all. You doomed the republic, soiled the global understanding of “democracy”, and showed the western world order to be a hollow shell of what it once was, where laws and justice dont really matter. All so the DNC elites could take some zionist bribes on a single election cycle, which you then lost. Heck of a job. Its hard to imagine screwing the globe any more thoroughly. Its breathtaking. You couldnt have done a more thorough job if you were maga republican fascists yourselves.
Throwing your vote in the trash is a vote for garbage, and garbage won by a landslide.
The garbage voters really hate to hear it.
If you thought the people who were critical of the Democrats went quite after the election, you’re saying more about the echo chamber you’ve built for yourself than anything else.
One of the candidates was against Palestinian genocide??
Amazingly, nobody’s happy that the dems decided to sacrifice the whole country rather than budge on exterminating the Palestinians.
I mean, Kamala really wanted Republicans in the white house with her. I bet she’s elated to see how many will be in there now.
Maybe pick a candidate that people want to vote for next time
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You vote based on the choices you’re presented, not the ones you like. Like it or not a no vote is a vote one way or another.
Your comment highlights the tension between idealism and realism when it comes to voting.
Ideally, everyone would vote based on the choices they’re given. But in the real world, human behavior is messy—especially in an electorate like America’s, where civic education is weak and collective action is a foreign concept to many. It’s not surprising that “lesser evil” voting and the idea of keeping a genocide on simmer failed to compel a minority of voters who chose to abstain.
Do I blame nonvoters? Sure, to an extent—maybe 49%. But realism forces me to direct most of the blame at the Democratic Party, which has spent the last eight years repeatedly folding to Trump’s every authoritarian move. Until they address their own complicity, they’ll continue to bear the larger share of responsibility for this broken dynamic.
So motivational, that will surely drive Dems to turn out and vote for someone.
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You mean like Shill Stein? Or do you mean that other do-nothing that no one can remember because they’ve done nothing?
I’m just guessing here but they probably don’t mean a candidate who got less than 1% of the vote. I’m not sure why that’s where you went right away.
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They voted for a worse genocide.
In 2 different places no less and possibly more.
They just don’t know it yet.
Last I checked Trump lost 3 million voters since last election, and Harris lost 10 million.
The couch won. It’s not like people were suddenly won over by a person they’ve likely seen through 3 election cycles.
Great job couches, now your worst enemy is VP-elect.
Yea those couches are fucked now.
Right, which is why people are rightfully furious at those they didn’t even bother to vote for the objectively better option
She didn’t appear better. So telling people that did nothing.
I don’t know why that’s a hard concept, for so many. Lemmy liberals love to think they can tell people exactly what to do because they are obviously right.
It’s smug and not effective and yet tactics don’t change just berate harder.
I’ve a feeling some of them know it. They’re just remaining here to maintain enough credibility to be believable during the next propaganda wave that’ll hit us once trump allows his boss to crater Kiev.
You forgot at home, where the marginalized groups are also gonna feel the brunt of turnips policies.
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