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I think we’re all missing the point here, and this is how they divide us. (By they I mean monied interests). Back in the 60s you could get a job air hammering in the same 8 bolts all day that would provide you a house, car, and your spouse doesn’t work and you have 2 kids and go on vacation twice a year and the company takes care of your retirement. Both of these jobs (in ops post) require the same or more skill to do and you can’t even afford to rent a studio apartment on your own. We need to stop looking at other “unskilled” labor and saying “they better not make a much as me” and start asking “hold on, why can’t we both make more?” Rising tides lift all ships. The only people that suffer are the multi millionaires.
This isnt radical. If you work full time you should be able to afford what your parents and grandparents had in the 60s working full time.
Honest labor is honest labor, whatever it’s moping the floor or engineering new bridges and rockets. We need each other. And we all want to have a sufficient amount of these funny play-money papers once we clock out for today, or, rather, not feeling limited by the lack of them up to the point of starvation.
Exactly 💯.
It’s getting to the point that just renting an illegal basement “apartment” requires 2 incomes in some places… I make $30/hr and almost half my income goes to this shit garage apartment I live in… Forget “legitimate” apartments, those prices are just absolute insanity.
Without looking at “professional” college degree required jobs, the VAST majority of jobs out there pay barely over $20/hr where I am… Where are you going to live on that kind of garbage?
I cannot stand the focus on “family income.” It completely ignores the experience of the individual and lumps multiple incomes together to try to claim that people are doing well… Yeah well fuck me for being undesirable and permanently single.
Yeah well fuck me for being undesirable and permanently single.
woe is you, even more fucked are the people who don’t want to be living in a multi person household. Let alone living with a partner.
(this comment is mostly a shitpost, i just think you phrased that part weird, dont mind me)
lol packing boxes at Amazon being skilled labor in comparison to the burger dudes. Like, my dude, you’re about half a step above the dude putting a burger together then packing a bag with it, and I’m being generous.
Packing a box seems easier than operating the machines at mcdos. Timing the operation, consistency, time pressure, angry clients, …
And like. We’ve all ordered from amazon. We know how they pack boxes. There’s no skill involved there.
That right there is why I’m hoping the xeet was sarcasm tbh.
I want Amazon fulfillment center workers to be paid a living wage, but calling some of those jobs “skilled” is stretch.
The phrase has lost all meaning. People just assume its a personal attack now cause I guess American egos are in decline or something.
Waxing moon or some shit.
Fry Cooks have to take classes on food safety. They are skilled labor. I’m not sure about the Amazon box guy but maybe both should have the trade union you need to be “skilled labor” in the actual sense of it.
Instead of reasonable pay, you’re offered a title and persistent lies about career growth. And it feels pretty shitty when you’re confronted with the fact that you’ve invested a bunch of energy in something that won’t pay off.
Ugh… Dumbasses must’ve been terrible at Tetris.
But seriously, that box took up so much erroneous space on the transporting vehicle, displacing other boxes that had to move to yet more vehicles. The extra emissions from these failed attempts at protecting the item (which is pushed up against the wall of the box, vulnerable anyways), is sad.
Working at McDonald’s fucking sucks. They deserve far more in hazard pay.
Those bathrooms are proof those employees don’t receive the hazard pay they should to clean those things. Mcdonalds.
Crab ass mentality. You should be asking why you get paid so little not keeping everyone else down
And the fast food shit is probably about as skilled as packing Amazon boxes the fuck you on about
Bro, I went to college and got a degree in packinology. Not everyone is qualified to use scotch tape and bubble wrap. You know how many people die every year choking on packing peanuts?
A brain sturgeon ain’t got shit on me.
My guy if you can learn the job first day off the street it is unskilled labor
Stephen King taught me that cracking eggs is skilled labor for homeless alcoholic vampire-slaying priests
Which is why the very idea of “unskilled labour” is ableist.
I had to work with an occupational therapist for 2 weeks to learn how to wash my dishes at home without having injuries or breaking my dishes. I could not have walked into a job as a fry cook just because it’s entry level and “unskilled”. I’d need to learn some skills first.
There’s no such thing as unskilled labour for me personally, because any labour requires skill when your body or mind is disabled.
Did it take 4 years of school and another year or two on the job training to get proficient? There is such a thing as unskilled labor even if you personally have to work harder at it due to the cards you’ve been dealt.
I thankfully haven’t had to do physical therapy, but from what I hear, it’s painful and no fun if you’re doing it right…hope your dishes are getting easier, friend.
Painful, generally (but it shouldn’t be agonizing barring other health issues) and no fun really depends on the physical therapist.
The guy I went to was very nice and had 4 patients at a time in the big room, and everyone just talked to him, one another, or just worked on sets. It was actually quite pleasant to just do sets and listen to people talk about the best way to do a crab boil!
Which is why the very idea of “unskilled labour” is ableist.
they don’t exactly call it capable labor or anything.
They call it unskilled labor for a reason. It’s generally not complicated and not very hard.
Naturally being disabled makes things harder, but idk what you want me to do about that one. People with physical disabilities and the capability of doing labor don’t generally go together.
People with physical disabilities and the capability of doing labor don’t generally go together.
And yet we’re given no other means to ensure our survival other than to try to labour for a chance to earn a living.
i don’t disagree, but that’s a different problem. I don’t think this is an ableist problem, i think this is probably more of a social service problem more than anything.
For some people with disabilities it’s a social services problem because they will never have the capacity to work for their income with their own type of disability. For others like myself it’s an occupational support issue. It took me a few years and several intensive OT programs, but I now ace every work task expected of me, I have progressed through my company and hold a senior position. After failing for 7 years after highschool to get a proper job, doing we’ll in interviews and then being let go before my probation ended because I wasn’t picking physical skills up fast enough, finally I landed a patient and understanding employer who responded to my OT and gave feedback to the my OT and worked with me to develop the skills I was lacking.
This was done through an existing social support program in my country where the government will subsidise a business for part of an employee’s wage, if that employee is enrolled in a disability occupational program, that way the business isn’t paying full price for half the labour while the employee skills up.
This program has existed for over 30 years, and yet it’s very difficult to get businesses to enrol in the program because it’s still expected that you come to a job on day one with the fundamental skills like being able to hold a pen properly to write (took me until I was 21 to consistently do it without pain, but I got there eventually). I’ve been on both ends of the program now, having signed up my organisation for a new hire, just a few years after I had finished my program. From the business perspective it’s 15 minutes of paperwork, you can hire a temp with the money the government gives you so you can have 2 employees for the price of one, and sure it’s a bit awkward because one of those employees isn’t yet fully able to do the job, but you quickly see improvement because you’ve got the right professionals involved, and it doesn’t matter because if its truly entry into level the temp will have it covered while the disabled employee learns.
This program exists, so within my country specifically I’d argue that’s where the ableism comes in. When the financial cost of hiring someone with a longer than average training period is removed, the only other reasons that remain are that you’d rather just hire the easiest person to train and that person is likely able bodied, and I’m not saying that’s wrong, that’s smart business, so I completely understand why businesses do it. My point I guess is that my current employment status and output of work is proof that people in my situation aren’t unemployable because we can’t do the work, we’re unemployable because we pose an added barrier to training, and therefore we have no edge in a capitalist society.
Even if I was eligible for a good, livable disability pension I would still want to work/volunteer in my same role because it’s what it love doing with my time and it fulfils me even without a pay cheque, but that still wouldn’t be an option for me without access to OT programs today learn through skills I need (I’m not eligible for a pension, in my country if you can work more than 8 hours a week you can’t claim a disability pension. I can work 10-12 hours, so I can’t claim)
For some people with disabilities it’s a social services problem because they will never have the capacity to work for their income with their own type of disability. For others like myself it’s an occupational support issue.
i consider both of these to be some form of social support to be honest.
the rest of the post i pretty much agree with. As you said it’s not a competency problem (although technically it is in terms of the hiring procedure) it’s a training latency problem. Even beyond that point, there are a lot of people with physical disability who can do various different kinds of work. Physical disability is rather broad as defined, so it could include someone with an amputated limb for example. While that’s not going to help, it’s most certainly not going to kill their job prospects, unless they’re a trained pianist or something. That might pose a problem.
I think the conceptual meaning of ableism is just, weird. For one thing it could very easily be implied that different people are “differently” able, which could be construed to mean that black people aren’t smart enough to work office jobs (to pull a historically relevant example) the other implication is better, i can’t really think of any exact definition that would pin down this phenomenon in such a way that i would be comfortable referring to a specific thing as “ableist”
I think the closest that you might get is incredibly bad accessibility design, stairs for someone in a wheelchair, for example. I guess to me ableism is more of a passive thing, than an active thing. Not hiring someone based on disability would either be discriminatory or just good ole capitalism in my eyes depending on the situation.
You might be able to use ableist to broadly describe aspects of society, but i feel like that’s going to be really uncharted territory and i don’t really want to go there.
I guess ultimately i just think discrimination is more than suited in like 95% of cases here lol.
I hate to break it to that guy but packing boxes isn’t skilled labor either.
All labour is skilled labour. If you have to be trained how to do something it’s a skill.
You think packing boxes is just putting things in boxes but I’m sure there is more to it, particularly when working for dystopian Amazon where they’re very strict with KPIs.
People called it unskilled labour as a means to pay people less.
Given the size of the boxes my Amazon stuff comes in you’d have to be extremely challenged not to be able to get that stuff in there. They’re not exactly solving the Knapsack Packing Problem multiple times a day.
My understanding is some algorithm decides what size box to use for an order, the packer packs that box.
The skill comes from the repetition of doing the task to become efficient enough not to be taken out back and put down by Bezos.
The skill comes from the repetition of doing the task to become efficient enough not to be taken out back and put down by Bezos.
i would consider this being abused, not being skilled but ok
All labour is skilled labour. If you have to be trained how to do something it’s a skill.
semantically sure, but im pretty sure the implication is that it’s a heavily skill based field, something that you can’t just show up and start doing. As the term skilled labor would imply.
Would you consider someone who just learned chess to be a “skilled player” or would you consider someone who has quite the substantial knowledge of chess, and the ability to play very competently a “skilled player”
I would consider they had different levels of skills. A skill level if you will.
i don’t disagree with you, but the point that i’m making here is that a high level chess player, would be a skilled chess player. A novice who just started last week, isn’t going to be a skilled chess player either, they’re going to be an amateur/novice player.
Same can be said for skilled labor, it’s a specific type of labor that requires training and as you’ve said, a very specific skill set to be utilized.
Eh. If you can replace someone with practically any able bodied person off the street and a week of training, it’s not skilled labor.
Can you technically argue that 1 week of training equates to becoming “skilled”? Sure, but it’s a dumb line to draw IMO.
It’s dumb to draw any sort of line.
I think it fits the dictionary definition. Don’t you?
skill /skĭl/
noun
-
Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.
“painted with great skill.”
-
A developed talent or ability.
“improved his writing skills.”
-
An art, trade, or technique, particularly one requiring use of the hands or body.
“the skill of glassmaking.”
-
If anything, I’d claim that burger flipping requires more skill than item boxing.
It’s a skill. Just a lower skill, as it’s not that hard to learn or become good at it.
Yeah and that’s what “skilled labor” means. It is about people with higher skills required for their job, skills that are in high demand. There is a huge difference between a doctor, programmer, CAD designer, and a cashier.
TIL putting stuff in boxes is skilled labor but flipping burgers isn’t.
/Eyeroll
If this troll were any more obvious he’d be hiding under bridges eating children.
Yeah, the “skilled labor” is when the script slipped.
Man, if you had to get that far to see it, I don’t know what to tell you.
Man, if you have to be a dick to people on the internet to feel special I don’t know what to tell you.
On a ragebait post specifically about being a dick to an obvious strawman.
Sorry, but if you’re so eager to hate that you fail to notice this incredibly obvious troll, you should look in a mirror before accusing others of being dicks.
I think the skilled labour guy is using sarcasm, and the rest of the internet is not picking up on it.
All Labor is skilled Labor.
No. “Skilled labour” means that you’re hiring someone because of a skill or training they already have.
A carpenter is skilled labour because you expect a carpenter to already be able to work with wood. Your not going to train them from scratch on the job. They’ll already have served as an apprentice or been trained in some other way.
A fork lift driver would need to have a license before you hired them. Skilled labour.
Somebody packing boxes or flipping burger is “unskilled labour”. On day 1 you’ll be taught the job. There will be no prerequisite skills needed. It doesn’t mean “there’s no skill in this job”, just that “there is no requirement to have a skill to apply this job”.
They get taught the job, making them… skilled?
A carpenter gets an apprenticeship for 2-3 years where they get taught the job, does that make it unskilled as well?
Some jobs are easier to learn than others, that doesn’t mean they’re easier or worth less, or require no skills.
It makes the apprenticeship an “unskilled” hire, but afterwards they’d be a “skilled” hire for any carpentry job.
The term just means “Is there some required experience for this job on day 1?” not “Does this job require skill to do it well” because that’s true of all jobs.
Yes putting shit in a box truly requires specialized skills you dumbass twat waffle.
Learn to fucking stand with your follow workers.
I sit at a desk at home, send emails, and make calls and get paid comparatively handsomely - these people have to stand over searing hot griddles, deep friers, and industrial equipment, risking serious injury at any moment for (close to) minimum wage. Doesn’t seem right to me.
They tie their confidence and self worth to their pay rate. They don’t want to think they are the same as a fast food worker.
By the way, fast food work sucks. Thats why noone wants to do it. Its not easy to work a shit job. Hard work is hard work either way.
The difference in pay is easier to understand if we keep the time increments the same:
Dude: $16/hr
Bezos: $9,000,000/hr
Bezos makes 562,500 times as much.
Edit: added a missing zero
I agree with your point, but I’m struggling with your numbers… Is it $9,000.00/hr or $900,000/HR?
Editting myself to add: either is a horrific amount for one man to earn
If we take the 150,000 / min from the meme as given, then that’s 9,000,000 / h. That also gels with the factor of 562,500. I think friend_of_satan just dropped a 0 there.
Stratification Economics- that’s the term for it. It’s such a bizarre and fucked up thing that humans would rather make sure their relative status is better to another group rather than objectively imroved overall.
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“Why aren’t the rich people being allowed to hurt other workers more than me? What do you mean those other workers are standing up for themselves? I am very mad about this!”
