i mean you don’t have to accept US support, there are arguments for it but most can be dismissed in any situation due to historical examples. Any US backed movement usually became nothing but US backed and a vassal of empire, screwing over the revolution. If they wanted to take a rough deal they could have gone with the syrians (which they eventually did anyway). Now they’re still sticking with them to disrupt syria despite it.
Of course i think kurdish nationalism as reasonable, but the corruption that comes from being a US backed movement is considerable. I have no illusions that the kurds are treated well under any of their occupier regimes, but rojava was doomed to be a case of cancer by making a deal with the devil. Israel supports kurdistan and has made many pro-kurdish stances in the years of its existence, and alignment with israel is not a good sign for your national liberation struggle. Becoming a US vassal usually means opposing other national liberation struggles that you should have solidarity with, like palestine. Theres in fact a reactionary solidarity of ‘both being oppressed by arabs’ that is built in some areas of thought, of course not necessarily representing the broader population and can be destroyed from within. Its existence is still notable all in all.
I am not condemning it for being ‘not socialist enough’ or whatever, since I support national liberation first, but US vassalage puts you into becoming a guard dog of empire, you get in the way of other struggles for self-determination.
its a tough spot, and im still learning. I hope there is a kurdish state in the future at the end of the day, but i hesitate to support a project that comes into conflict with anti imperialism and cozies up to imperialism in such a way.
but the corruption that comes from being a US backed movement is considerable
Sure but there’s a difference between accepting some aid or agreeing to participate in military coordination during a war and becoming a puppet of the US.
More than that, the US routinely backs both sides/most sides in conflicts and civil unrest in part because that way they have a bet on every horse and they can use those smaller amounts of backing to test who is willing to play ball and who isn’t. The thing is though, we usually only hear about the US backing the big ones and the big ones are usually anti-communist.
Don’t forget that Castro received support from the US initially and allegedly received funding from the US too.
If the PKK really was a US puppet then we should expect there to be an immediate shift in attention where politicians and state department goons and the media would start framing Ocalan as a heroic freedom fighter and prisoner of conscience at the hands of the tyrannical Turkish government.
I’m not saying that collaboration with the US government is a good thing or that it shouldn’t be viewed with a deep and abiding skeptical eye but there’s a difference between accepting some weapons/feeding ISIS coordinates to US command for airstrikes and aligning your movement to US interests.
I have no illusions that the kurds are treated well under any of their occupier regimes
That’s an understatement. They are generally seen as subhuman vermin and they get treated as such.
but rojava was doomed to be a case of cancer by making a deal with the devil
Careful not to stray into the myth of the immaculate revolution.
I haven’t kept up with Rojava but as far as I’m aware they got some aid and they coordinated on a military level but US support for Rojava was, unsurprisingly, quite fleeting and they don’t really give a fuck about an ongoing partnership with Rojava. I’m not sure what deals were made exactly but I think framing it in Faustian terms rather than limited military coordination doesn’t really reflect the reality.
Israel supports kurdistan and has made many pro-kurdish stances in the years of its existence, and alignment with israel is not a good sign for your national liberation struggle.
All Israel cares about is itself. They want a weakened and balkanised West Asia so they have weaker opposition and more opportunities to expand their Golan lebensraum. They’d back ISIS if it meant the fall of the Syrian government because it would provide them with a chance to grab more of Syria.
There’s no ideological basis of support for Rojava coming from Israel beyond the “Arabs bad”/“We support the noble freedom fighters who are struggling for a homeland for their oppressed ethnic group because that gives us the aura that Israel is the exact same thing”.
I wouldn’t take their support for a movement as anything but cyncial political manoeuvring tbh.
Becoming a US vassal usually means opposing other national liberation struggles that you should have solidarity with, like palestine.
But then on the other hand, you would hope that Palestine wouldn’t support Turkish sub-imperialism/regional imperialism by cheering them on when they take land from Syria or from Rojava and yet Hamas did exactly that when Turkey seized Afrin.
And this is where it gets messy because down at this level you have pretty extensive collaboration between the PKK and the PFLP going back decades upon decades but the PKK does not support Hamas, and Hamas does not support the PKK.
but US vassalage puts you into becoming a guard dog of empire, you get in the way of other struggles for self-determination.
Sure but how are you defining the term US vassal and how does Rojava meet this definition from your perspective?
but i hesitate to support a project that comes into conflict with anti imperialism and cozies up to imperialism in such a way.
If you’re saying that the Kurds should subjugate their very real and pressing concerns about their oppression at the hands of the Syrian government out of high-minded ideals about a greater anti-imperialist purpose by supporting Assad then I’m not with you on that.
Syria has worked very hard to suppress the Kurds within its borders. The Syrian government stripped Syrian Kurds of Syrian citizenship en masse, creating stateless people numbering somewhere between a quarter of a million and half a million and now Syria has a Kurdish secessionist state to contend with? That sounds like the second stage in the fuck around and find out process to me.
You had maybe half a million Kurds whose ability to travel outside of their province or to access things like education was prevented by the Syrian government. I see Rojava not as being some betrayal or abandonment of Syria by the Kurds but rather a recognition of the reality, of the long-term consequences of Syria’s betrayal and abandonment of the Kurds.
Is the US the great Satan? Undoubtedly.
Is it fair to expect a people to care about this fact when the boot that has been on their neck for generations is that of the Syrian government? I’m not convinced that it is.
I haven’t kept up with Rojava but as far as I’m aware they got some aid and they coordinated on a military level but US support for Rojava was, unsurprisingly, quite fleeting and they don’t really give a fuck about an ongoing partnership with Rojava. I’m not sure what deals were made exactly but I think framing it in Faustian terms rather than limited military coordination doesn’t really reflect the reality.
Rojava is an important part of America’s extraction of oil and other raw materials. This is a deep economic cooperation.
In that case, I have good news for you.
But then on the other hand, you would hope that Palestine wouldn’t support Turkish sub-imperialism/regional imperialism by cheering them on when they take land from Syria or from Rojava and yet Hamas did exactly that when Turkey seized Afrin.
And this is where it gets messy because down at this level you have pretty extensive collaboration between the PKK and the PFLP going back decades upon decades but the PKK does not support Hamas, and Hamas does not support the PKK.
I admit that i had no knowledge of this information. Self criticism: I’ve run wild with what little information I have and try to make it known that I know little on the subject when I speak of it.
Politics is confusing as fuck. I very much appreciate Hamas and its righteous fight against genocide, but the PFLP is my personal favorite. George Habash will live forever! Support to both Hamas and PFLP for fighting together against the Zionist menace.
All Israel cares about is itself. They want a weakened and balkanised West Asia so they have weaker opposition and more opportunities to expand their Golan lebensraum. They’d back ISIS if it meant the fall of the Syrian government because it would provide them with a chance to grab more of Syria.
There’s no ideological basis of support for Rojava coming from Israel beyond the “Arabs bad”/“We support the noble freedom fighters who are struggling for a homeland for their oppressed ethnic group because that gives us the aura that Israel is the exact same thing”.
I wouldn’t take their support for a movement as anything but cyncial political manoeuvring tbh.
Of course it is cynical political maneuvering, Israel is a state run by genocidal bastards who make it their job to lie to everyone about the genocide of palestine while also actively doing it and cheering it on.
Im talking more about the response of some sectors of kurdistan in supporting Israel in response. Israel wouldn’t support this movement unless it got something out of it: the balkanization of syria.
Syria has worked very hard to suppress the Kurds within its borders. The Syrian government stripped Syrian Kurds of Syrian citizenship en masse, creating stateless people numbering somewhere between a quarter of a million and half a million and now Syria has a Kurdish secessionist state to contend with? That sounds like the second stage in the fuck around and find out process to me.
You had maybe half a million Kurds whose ability to travel outside of their province or to access things like education was prevented by the Syrian government. I see Rojava not as being some betrayal or abandonment of Syria by the Kurds but rather a recognition of the reality, of the long-term consequences of Syria’s betrayal and abandonment of the Kurds.
Im entirely ignorant on this matter, I apologize, I did not know the oppression was to such an extent. A thoroughly repugnant and reactionary decision from the Syrian government.
I do believe in Kurdish self determination, and recognize that rojava is an inevitable and correct response to a hostile government infringing on their self determination. I did before and will continue to believe in such, I just wanted to state my confusion on the matter at hand, and help find new information and perspectives.
Although its very privileged of me to lay in my bed debating the merits of a life or death liberation struggle… this is fucked up
If you’re saying that the Kurds should subjugate their very real and pressing concerns about their oppression at the hands of the Syrian government out of high-minded ideals about a greater anti-imperialist purpose by supporting Assad then I’m not with you on that.
and to this, with your stated reasons, I can understand this. I shouldn’t have said or implied that they should just deal with this racial discrimination and the ethnic cleansing that they have faced for centuries.
Im just confused, to have two technically ‘good’ and ‘righteous’ struggles against imperialism in conflict. America stirring up trouble in the region is no help either.
Is the US the great Satan? Undoubtedly.
Is it fair to expect a people to care about this fact when the boot that has been on their neck for generations is that of the Syrian government? I’m not convinced that it is.
I sympathize with the perspective, but historically that road is extremely dangerous. China’s own US aligned policy during the cold war is a testament to this. Funding the mujaheideen, Pol Pot, and conducting armed incursions into soviet territory were just insane but necessary requirements for an pro american policy. Thats even as China is a Independent state entity, while Rojava is a small separatist movement being tossed in the flames of civil war.
Im just stumped on where to align. I dont have to fully back any power, but its more of making sure my own ideological outlook is not an incorrect and reactionary one. National liberation is important to me as I live in Hawaii, and am fully committed to its complete independence and self determination of the Native hawaiians (that being control over state, culture, and economy of the nation of Hawaii). Having a good line on minority rights and national liberation is a big concern of mine. Here, complete opposition to the US is the only way to truly liberate ourselves, so I guess the context is different in other places…
“Instead of a life where Palestinians and Israelis live side by side, conflict is promoted. Neither Zionism, nor Islamic fanaticism, anti-semitism, or arabic nationalism will solve the problem.”
followed by
“We must search for a solution beyond nation states. The project and the idea of the Democratic Nation, developed by Abdullah Öcalan, as the self-government and self-defense of peoples without a state is the best solution, not just for Kurdistan but also for the Palestine-Israel conflict. Both sides urgently need to change their mentality. Therefore, it is a prerequisite that this Zionist mentality is abandoned. The Palestinians could also approach the question of how they could live together with the Jews with a democratic concept.”
which is about exactly as useful of commentary as those anarchists who are like “no state solution” for palestine and israel. This is non support and giving some words saying ‘this is sad they should it my way though’.
but they also write:
“Of course, the Palestinians will insist on a life in which they will administrate themselves and there will be no interference from Israel. To defend against authoritarian and oppressive policies and practices is a natural right. It is another prerequisite that the construction of new settlements on Palestinian soil is stopped. In addition, it is necessary to abandon hostile policies towards the Arab and Islamic world. Because there is also this dimension of Israeli-Arab Peace. It is not just a Jewish-Palestinian problem anymore, it has now become an Arab-Israeli problem.”
and
“Since the emergence of the PKK, we have been against Zionism. We compared the genocide of the Kurds in Turkey with Israeli Zionism and the apartheid regime of South Africa. Since its founding, the PKK has fought side by side with the Palestinians. In 1982, 13 of our cadres fell in the fight against the occupation of Lebanon by Israel. The Israeli state also participated in the international conspiracy against Abdullah Öcalan, and murdered four of our comrades in Berlin. No doubt, we will never forget the support the Palestinians gave to the Kurdish people in the 1980s.”
So i cant really complain. I guess the whole ‘they should do it our way to do it the best way’ is something us marxist leninists also do.
i mean you don’t have to accept US support, there are arguments for it but most can be dismissed in any situation due to historical examples. Any US backed movement usually became nothing but US backed and a vassal of empire, screwing over the revolution. If they wanted to take a rough deal they could have gone with the syrians (which they eventually did anyway). Now they’re still sticking with them to disrupt syria despite it.
Of course i think kurdish nationalism as reasonable, but the corruption that comes from being a US backed movement is considerable. I have no illusions that the kurds are treated well under any of their occupier regimes, but rojava was doomed to be a case of cancer by making a deal with the devil. Israel supports kurdistan and has made many pro-kurdish stances in the years of its existence, and alignment with israel is not a good sign for your national liberation struggle. Becoming a US vassal usually means opposing other national liberation struggles that you should have solidarity with, like palestine. Theres in fact a reactionary solidarity of ‘both being oppressed by arabs’ that is built in some areas of thought, of course not necessarily representing the broader population and can be destroyed from within. Its existence is still notable all in all.
I am not condemning it for being ‘not socialist enough’ or whatever, since I support national liberation first, but US vassalage puts you into becoming a guard dog of empire, you get in the way of other struggles for self-determination.
its a tough spot, and im still learning. I hope there is a kurdish state in the future at the end of the day, but i hesitate to support a project that comes into conflict with anti imperialism and cozies up to imperialism in such a way.
Sure but there’s a difference between accepting some aid or agreeing to participate in military coordination during a war and becoming a puppet of the US.
More than that, the US routinely backs both sides/most sides in conflicts and civil unrest in part because that way they have a bet on every horse and they can use those smaller amounts of backing to test who is willing to play ball and who isn’t. The thing is though, we usually only hear about the US backing the big ones and the big ones are usually anti-communist.
Don’t forget that Castro received support from the US initially and allegedly received funding from the US too.
If the PKK really was a US puppet then we should expect there to be an immediate shift in attention where politicians and state department goons and the media would start framing Ocalan as a heroic freedom fighter and prisoner of conscience at the hands of the tyrannical Turkish government.
I’m not saying that collaboration with the US government is a good thing or that it shouldn’t be viewed with a deep and abiding skeptical eye but there’s a difference between accepting some weapons/feeding ISIS coordinates to US command for airstrikes and aligning your movement to US interests.
That’s an understatement. They are generally seen as subhuman vermin and they get treated as such.
Careful not to stray into the myth of the immaculate revolution.
I haven’t kept up with Rojava but as far as I’m aware they got some aid and they coordinated on a military level but US support for Rojava was, unsurprisingly, quite fleeting and they don’t really give a fuck about an ongoing partnership with Rojava. I’m not sure what deals were made exactly but I think framing it in Faustian terms rather than limited military coordination doesn’t really reflect the reality.
All Israel cares about is itself. They want a weakened and balkanised West Asia so they have weaker opposition and more opportunities to expand their Golan lebensraum. They’d back ISIS if it meant the fall of the Syrian government because it would provide them with a chance to grab more of Syria.
There’s no ideological basis of support for Rojava coming from Israel beyond the “Arabs bad”/“We support the noble freedom fighters who are struggling for a homeland for their oppressed ethnic group because that gives us the aura that Israel is the exact same thing”.
I wouldn’t take their support for a movement as anything but cyncial political manoeuvring tbh.
In that case, I have good news for you.
But then on the other hand, you would hope that Palestine wouldn’t support Turkish sub-imperialism/regional imperialism by cheering them on when they take land from Syria or from Rojava and yet Hamas did exactly that when Turkey seized Afrin.
And this is where it gets messy because down at this level you have pretty extensive collaboration between the PKK and the PFLP going back decades upon decades but the PKK does not support Hamas, and Hamas does not support the PKK.
Sure but how are you defining the term US vassal and how does Rojava meet this definition from your perspective?
If you’re saying that the Kurds should subjugate their very real and pressing concerns about their oppression at the hands of the Syrian government out of high-minded ideals about a greater anti-imperialist purpose by supporting Assad then I’m not with you on that.
Syria has worked very hard to suppress the Kurds within its borders. The Syrian government stripped Syrian Kurds of Syrian citizenship en masse, creating stateless people numbering somewhere between a quarter of a million and half a million and now Syria has a Kurdish secessionist state to contend with? That sounds like the second stage in the fuck around and find out process to me.
You had maybe half a million Kurds whose ability to travel outside of their province or to access things like education was prevented by the Syrian government. I see Rojava not as being some betrayal or abandonment of Syria by the Kurds but rather a recognition of the reality, of the long-term consequences of Syria’s betrayal and abandonment of the Kurds.
Is the US the great Satan? Undoubtedly.
Is it fair to expect a people to care about this fact when the boot that has been on their neck for generations is that of the Syrian government? I’m not convinced that it is.
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/inside-story-how-trump-kept-oil-syria-and-lost https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/03/delta-crescent-energy-syrian-oil-391033 https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/08/05/kurds-oil-syria-us-troops-trump/
Rojava is an important part of America’s extraction of oil and other raw materials. This is a deep economic cooperation.
I admit that i had no knowledge of this information. Self criticism: I’ve run wild with what little information I have and try to make it known that I know little on the subject when I speak of it.
Politics is confusing as fuck. I very much appreciate Hamas and its righteous fight against genocide, but the PFLP is my personal favorite. George Habash will live forever! Support to both Hamas and PFLP for fighting together against the Zionist menace.
Of course it is cynical political maneuvering, Israel is a state run by genocidal bastards who make it their job to lie to everyone about the genocide of palestine while also actively doing it and cheering it on.
Im talking more about the response of some sectors of kurdistan in supporting Israel in response. Israel wouldn’t support this movement unless it got something out of it: the balkanization of syria.
Im entirely ignorant on this matter, I apologize, I did not know the oppression was to such an extent. A thoroughly repugnant and reactionary decision from the Syrian government.
I do believe in Kurdish self determination, and recognize that rojava is an inevitable and correct response to a hostile government infringing on their self determination. I did before and will continue to believe in such, I just wanted to state my confusion on the matter at hand, and help find new information and perspectives.
Although its very privileged of me to lay in my bed debating the merits of a life or death liberation struggle… this is fucked up
and to this, with your stated reasons, I can understand this. I shouldn’t have said or implied that they should just deal with this racial discrimination and the ethnic cleansing that they have faced for centuries.
Im just confused, to have two technically ‘good’ and ‘righteous’ struggles against imperialism in conflict. America stirring up trouble in the region is no help either.
I sympathize with the perspective, but historically that road is extremely dangerous. China’s own US aligned policy during the cold war is a testament to this. Funding the mujaheideen, Pol Pot, and conducting armed incursions into soviet territory were just insane but necessary requirements for an pro american policy. Thats even as China is a Independent state entity, while Rojava is a small separatist movement being tossed in the flames of civil war.
Im just stumped on where to align. I dont have to fully back any power, but its more of making sure my own ideological outlook is not an incorrect and reactionary one. National liberation is important to me as I live in Hawaii, and am fully committed to its complete independence and self determination of the Native hawaiians (that being control over state, culture, and economy of the nation of Hawaii). Having a good line on minority rights and national liberation is a big concern of mine. Here, complete opposition to the US is the only way to truly liberate ourselves, so I guess the context is different in other places…
I mean Gaddaffi did support the Kurds immensely…
bah its all a mess
in the article link he goes on to say:
“Instead of a life where Palestinians and Israelis live side by side, conflict is promoted. Neither Zionism, nor Islamic fanaticism, anti-semitism, or arabic nationalism will solve the problem.”
followed by
“We must search for a solution beyond nation states. The project and the idea of the Democratic Nation, developed by Abdullah Öcalan, as the self-government and self-defense of peoples without a state is the best solution, not just for Kurdistan but also for the Palestine-Israel conflict. Both sides urgently need to change their mentality. Therefore, it is a prerequisite that this Zionist mentality is abandoned. The Palestinians could also approach the question of how they could live together with the Jews with a democratic concept.”
which is about exactly as useful of commentary as those anarchists who are like “no state solution” for palestine and israel. This is non support and giving some words saying ‘this is sad they should it my way though’.
but they also write:
“Of course, the Palestinians will insist on a life in which they will administrate themselves and there will be no interference from Israel. To defend against authoritarian and oppressive policies and practices is a natural right. It is another prerequisite that the construction of new settlements on Palestinian soil is stopped. In addition, it is necessary to abandon hostile policies towards the Arab and Islamic world. Because there is also this dimension of Israeli-Arab Peace. It is not just a Jewish-Palestinian problem anymore, it has now become an Arab-Israeli problem.”
and
“Since the emergence of the PKK, we have been against Zionism. We compared the genocide of the Kurds in Turkey with Israeli Zionism and the apartheid regime of South Africa. Since its founding, the PKK has fought side by side with the Palestinians. In 1982, 13 of our cadres fell in the fight against the occupation of Lebanon by Israel. The Israeli state also participated in the international conspiracy against Abdullah Öcalan, and murdered four of our comrades in Berlin. No doubt, we will never forget the support the Palestinians gave to the Kurdish people in the 1980s.”
So i cant really complain. I guess the whole ‘they should do it our way to do it the best way’ is something us marxist leninists also do.