They tried to overthrow the federal government last election and are responsible for countless hate crimes and fomenting prejudice and violence against marginalized people, including supporting new fascist laws in the past few years. They are dangerous, their ideology is dangerous, and their speech is used as a weapon to harm people. I’m not running away, I’m saying any “stadium” owner can and should be expected to ban such assholes from the premises. As the saying goes, if a bar owner lets Nazis congregate in the corner of their bar, it’s a Nazi bar. “Not all Germans” physically committed a genocide, but all of them tolerated or endorsed Nazism to the point of allowing it to happen. When good people see evil rising, they get involved and disrupt it, they don’t stay quiet and let it grow.
Nah this is not how moderation works on the fediverse. If you defederate from Nazi instances, Nazis have an incentive to go to those instances instead of yours - namely because they can’t interact with Nazi content. They can still harass your users of course, but they can’t build a platform and get banned quickly. So on the Fediverse you end up with a lot of Nazis on only a few servers, and everyone just bans those servers. Same goes for pedos, TERFs, etc.
This makes it a LOT easier as an instance admin to moderate content and keep users safe. As a Masto admin, I only get about 10 reports a week because I block about 200-300 servers. It also incentivizes me and my other fellow admins to block that kind of content, because if we don’t, Nazis will come to our servers and we risk being defederated from.
The system is broken then, if it depends on a tiny amount of super powerful users who can and do block entire servers for one comment. Then this system is already broken, unsustainable and a waste of my time.
This is obvious to me, this system is missing a functioning moderation system.
Relying on individual human thought janitors to try and hand-pick back content, because of how human nature is, is vowed to failure from the start.
First the kind of people who are going to be attracted by this kind of power, are never people I would like to allow manipulating what sort of things I see. And second, human lazyness will lead to harsh and excessive decision from those moderators
In fact, a system designed like this, will have to always comprise with making the moderator’s impossible task as easy and as convenient as possible. This will always make the user’s voice into a worthless shitstain in their curated garden.
And I say that as someone who has been victim of such as stupid and broken system.
I was a user of reddit’s /r/quebec, the biggest Quebec discussion forum. The one online place where Quebec society comes to talk to itself.
And to illustrate my point, there was one of those extremely annoying amber alert and the name of the kid was really funny. And the text of the amber alert made it clear it was one of those child custody dispute, not a kidnapping.
So I just made a joke that naming their kid whatever-it-was itself constituted child abuse.
Ah, ah real funny.
And you know what happenned. I have been been permanently banned for life from ever interacting with the biggest online community of where I live.
I find that extremely unfair and it’s obvious why it happened. Those people who delete people, they will never ever be able to handle the scale of sorting that enormous mass of content. So they just delete on sight anything they don’t like, not just the comment but the people themselves.
Any oppressive system like that, which monopolize the center of discourse is a dictatorship.
I don’t care about nazi, the real nazi are the mods. All forums systems so far have been like this. Compromised by their weak, useless moderation systems.
The system is broken then, if it depends on a tiny amount of super powerful users who can and do block entire servers for one comment.
This has not happened in my experience, the standard for blocking entire instances is always much higher. Sure you have a few minor exceptions like Beehaw, but Beehaw is just a single instance. In practice it’s usually multiple comments, over a sustained period of time. Blocking an instance is not trivial.
Then this system is already broken, unsustainable and a waste of my time.
Then leave or start your own server.
This is obvious to me, this system is missing a functioning moderation system.
Lemmy has one at the community-level and at the admin level. Instance banning is a moderation tool and it is incredibly useful to use as I laid out before.
Relying on individual human thought janitors to try and hand-pick back content, because of how human nature is, is vowed to failure from the start.
First the kind of people who are going to be attracted by this kind of power, are never people I would like to allow manipulating what sort of things I see. And second, human lazyness will lead to harsh and excessive decision from those moderators
This has not been my experience from having been in this space for months and moderating a large server. I do what keeps my users safe, not what is convenient for me. Sometimes those overlap, sometimes they don’t. I block instances because it prevents my users from receiving harassment from Nazis, instead of me cleaning it up after the fact.
Also you can just start your own server. Lemmy is cheap.
In fact, a system designed like this, will have to always comprise with making the moderator’s impossible task as easy and as convenient as possible. This will always make the user’s voice into a worthless shitstain in their curated garden.
Then leave. This has not been my experience moderating a large server. I listen to my users. And the vast, vast majority of my users want Nazis banned. So I ban them. If you are in the very small minority that wants to interact with Nazis, then you can leave and go join one of the many Nazi servers out there. They would love to have you.
Ah, ah real funny.
Not really.
And you know what happenned. I have been been permanently banned for life from ever interacting with the biggest online community of where I live.
Ok.
I find that extremely unfair and it’s obvious why it happened. Those people who delete people, they will never ever be able to handle the scale of sorting that enormous mass of content. So they just delete on sight anything they don’t like, not just the comment but the people themselves.
Ok. Then start your own server. The great thing about the Fediverse is you are more than free to do that.
Any oppressive system like that, which monopolize the center of discourse is a dictatorship.
…
I don’t care about nazi, the real nazi are the mods.
Then leave and go join a Nazi server. You sound like you would fit in great over there.
All forums systems so far have been like this. Compromised by their weak, useless moderation systems.
Then start a competitor that fixes it, or start a server that doesn’t use these systems.
I will take 100 nazi before I take one moderator.
Then go join a Nazi server or start your own. Nobody’s forcing you to stay here.
It’s unfortunate but there are a ton of shitbag people out there whose method of using the Internet is to be as shitty as they can be. Whether it’s fascism, abuse, sexism, racism, harassment, or just being the kind of person nobody wants to be around, these are real-life humans who’ve always been around and volunteer moderators/admins have always had to deal with. It’s as old as Usenet and if you’ve ever done in-person community management you know that it’s just a feature of our society in general. (People are just a little more wary of being yelled at and punched in person though.)
Downvotes and user moderation is more than enough. Giving unlimited power of content manipulation to a secret cabal of powerusers is not a solution, it’s a dictatorship worse than whatever the bad users could muster.
Any such system, can burn for all I care. I am so, so fed up with the control freaks. who think they’re better than everyone.
Make every user a moderator, and make their moderation public and proportionnate with their status as one of the users.
Then other user content discovery algorithm will just not pick the comment with 30 downvotes and 10 user blocks. Moderators are completely superfluous and in fact destroy the system as they plainly are doing to lemmy right now.
I don’t care to have do my part downvoting a nazi once in a while. Much better that than to be the powerless victim of power tripping moderators.
Either you haven’t seen how vile people can get and how it makes a place inhospitable for people to hang out and chat, or you have and just don’t care. Either way, Lemmy is already more transparent about its moderation actions (Modlog) than most other places on the internet, and you’re welcome to join an instance that has a moderation philosophy in line with what you’re talking about. Just don’t be surprised when the vast majority of people prefer a curated space where Nazis are not only downvoted but shown the door.
Well, that sucks, now there’s only going to be “onebiginstance” and for each community, there will only be the “onebigcommunity”
Federation is meaningless and we’re right back to reddit, with way less people, more draconian moderation that is also a lot weaker at the same time.
This is a huge let down.
Fortunately I’ve almost made reddit usable again so I won’t mind, it’s just so frustrating to see ideological minded folks throw away the possibility of making a decentralized reddit like and just throw it all away because of some scarecrows and old ideas about king-moderators that have to do it all themselves.
I can easily overcome any of these limitations, access control and moderators, but nothing I can do will incite people write in tiny communities in tiny instances.
Even when I code up an interface to see all /c/mycommunity on all instances. There won’t be anything there to read anyway.
They tried to overthrow the federal government last election and are responsible for countless hate crimes and fomenting prejudice and violence against marginalized people, including supporting new fascist laws in the past few years. They are dangerous, their ideology is dangerous, and their speech is used as a weapon to harm people. I’m not running away, I’m saying any “stadium” owner can and should be expected to ban such assholes from the premises. As the saying goes, if a bar owner lets Nazis congregate in the corner of their bar, it’s a Nazi bar. “Not all Germans” physically committed a genocide, but all of them tolerated or endorsed Nazism to the point of allowing it to happen. When good people see evil rising, they get involved and disrupt it, they don’t stay quiet and let it grow.
I don’t think they’re real. Pet theory, they’re actually bigtech henchmen here to fuck shit up so competitors get poisoned and die.
The answer is a more sophisticated user led moderation system that can wipe them off Lemmy like bugs on the windshield. Use wipers, not nuclear bombs.
I don’t think they’re real. Pet theory, they’re actually bigtech henchmen here to fuck shit up so competitors get poisoned and die.
The answer is a more sophisticated user led moderation system that can wipe them off Lemmy like bugs on the windshield. Use wipers, not nuclear bombs.
Nah this is not how moderation works on the fediverse. If you defederate from Nazi instances, Nazis have an incentive to go to those instances instead of yours - namely because they can’t interact with Nazi content. They can still harass your users of course, but they can’t build a platform and get banned quickly. So on the Fediverse you end up with a lot of Nazis on only a few servers, and everyone just bans those servers. Same goes for pedos, TERFs, etc.
This makes it a LOT easier as an instance admin to moderate content and keep users safe. As a Masto admin, I only get about 10 reports a week because I block about 200-300 servers. It also incentivizes me and my other fellow admins to block that kind of content, because if we don’t, Nazis will come to our servers and we risk being defederated from.
The system is broken then, if it depends on a tiny amount of super powerful users who can and do block entire servers for one comment. Then this system is already broken, unsustainable and a waste of my time. This is obvious to me, this system is missing a functioning moderation system.
Relying on individual human thought janitors to try and hand-pick back content, because of how human nature is, is vowed to failure from the start.
First the kind of people who are going to be attracted by this kind of power, are never people I would like to allow manipulating what sort of things I see. And second, human lazyness will lead to harsh and excessive decision from those moderators
In fact, a system designed like this, will have to always comprise with making the moderator’s impossible task as easy and as convenient as possible. This will always make the user’s voice into a worthless shitstain in their curated garden.
And I say that as someone who has been victim of such as stupid and broken system.
I was a user of reddit’s /r/quebec, the biggest Quebec discussion forum. The one online place where Quebec society comes to talk to itself.
And to illustrate my point, there was one of those extremely annoying amber alert and the name of the kid was really funny. And the text of the amber alert made it clear it was one of those child custody dispute, not a kidnapping.
So I just made a joke that naming their kid whatever-it-was itself constituted child abuse.
Ah, ah real funny.
And you know what happenned. I have been been permanently banned for life from ever interacting with the biggest online community of where I live.
I find that extremely unfair and it’s obvious why it happened. Those people who delete people, they will never ever be able to handle the scale of sorting that enormous mass of content. So they just delete on sight anything they don’t like, not just the comment but the people themselves.
Any oppressive system like that, which monopolize the center of discourse is a dictatorship. I don’t care about nazi, the real nazi are the mods. All forums systems so far have been like this. Compromised by their weak, useless moderation systems.
I will take 100 nazi before I take one moderator.
This has not happened in my experience, the standard for blocking entire instances is always much higher. Sure you have a few minor exceptions like Beehaw, but Beehaw is just a single instance. In practice it’s usually multiple comments, over a sustained period of time. Blocking an instance is not trivial.
Then leave or start your own server.
Lemmy has one at the community-level and at the admin level. Instance banning is a moderation tool and it is incredibly useful to use as I laid out before.
This has not been my experience from having been in this space for months and moderating a large server. I do what keeps my users safe, not what is convenient for me. Sometimes those overlap, sometimes they don’t. I block instances because it prevents my users from receiving harassment from Nazis, instead of me cleaning it up after the fact.
Also you can just start your own server. Lemmy is cheap.
Then leave. This has not been my experience moderating a large server. I listen to my users. And the vast, vast majority of my users want Nazis banned. So I ban them. If you are in the very small minority that wants to interact with Nazis, then you can leave and go join one of the many Nazi servers out there. They would love to have you.
Not really.
Ok.
Ok. Then start your own server. The great thing about the Fediverse is you are more than free to do that.
…
Then leave and go join a Nazi server. You sound like you would fit in great over there.
Then start a competitor that fixes it, or start a server that doesn’t use these systems.
Then go join a Nazi server or start your own. Nobody’s forcing you to stay here.
It’s unfortunate but there are a ton of shitbag people out there whose method of using the Internet is to be as shitty as they can be. Whether it’s fascism, abuse, sexism, racism, harassment, or just being the kind of person nobody wants to be around, these are real-life humans who’ve always been around and volunteer moderators/admins have always had to deal with. It’s as old as Usenet and if you’ve ever done in-person community management you know that it’s just a feature of our society in general. (People are just a little more wary of being yelled at and punched in person though.)
Downvotes and user moderation is more than enough. Giving unlimited power of content manipulation to a secret cabal of powerusers is not a solution, it’s a dictatorship worse than whatever the bad users could muster.
Any such system, can burn for all I care. I am so, so fed up with the control freaks. who think they’re better than everyone.
Make every user a moderator, and make their moderation public and proportionnate with their status as one of the users.
Then other user content discovery algorithm will just not pick the comment with 30 downvotes and 10 user blocks. Moderators are completely superfluous and in fact destroy the system as they plainly are doing to lemmy right now.
I don’t care to have do my part downvoting a nazi once in a while. Much better that than to be the powerless victim of power tripping moderators.
Either you haven’t seen how vile people can get and how it makes a place inhospitable for people to hang out and chat, or you have and just don’t care. Either way, Lemmy is already more transparent about its moderation actions (Modlog) than most other places on the internet, and you’re welcome to join an instance that has a moderation philosophy in line with what you’re talking about. Just don’t be surprised when the vast majority of people prefer a curated space where Nazis are not only downvoted but shown the door.
Well, that sucks, now there’s only going to be “onebiginstance” and for each community, there will only be the “onebigcommunity” Federation is meaningless and we’re right back to reddit, with way less people, more draconian moderation that is also a lot weaker at the same time.
This is a huge let down. Fortunately I’ve almost made reddit usable again so I won’t mind, it’s just so frustrating to see ideological minded folks throw away the possibility of making a decentralized reddit like and just throw it all away because of some scarecrows and old ideas about king-moderators that have to do it all themselves.
I can easily overcome any of these limitations, access control and moderators, but nothing I can do will incite people write in tiny communities in tiny instances. Even when I code up an interface to see all /c/mycommunity on all instances. There won’t be anything there to read anyway.