• ryven@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    7 months ago

    People really hate weapon durability, huh? I thought it was kind of genius, and that TotK introducing a way to repair weapons was really bad for the gameplay loop.

    • force@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      The durability system is just extremely tedious in both BotW and ToTK. It takes a lot of fun out of the game imo. Especially since items have such little durability, they break far too quickly.

      I also think the same about ACNH. I have a similar view (probably controversial) about Minecraft, except I think it’d be fine if the tools didn’t permanently break and you could just repair them afterwards. Only if you fix anvils/repairing tho, it’s been totally broken forever, although I guess mending exists as a bandaid. But really I prefer something like Terraria where there’s just no durability period.

      A long time ago, I played Fortnite Save the World (the PvE mode) and that was one of the worst offenders for weapon durability, at least for a beginner.

      • Captain Aggravated@sh.itjust.works
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        7 months ago

        A lot of BotW and TotK’s systems are too damn simple for their own good.

        The armor system works by simple addition and subtraction. The numbers correspond to quarter hearts. If an enemy attack was going to do, say, 12 damage, and you have 4 armor, that hit now does 8 damage, with a minimum of 1. Which is why a single trip to a clothing fairy will be the turning point from “everything one-shots me” to “I am made of adamantium.” in TotK especially you’d find boss monsters that one shot you before you can even get a good look at them, later in the game they’re complete pushovers.

        Similarly, the weapons actually function more like ammunition than “weapons.” You only have so many shotgun bullets, only so many SMG bullets, and only so many BFG bullets. You can swing this sword only so many times before it breaks. Shields, weirdly, aren’t that badly designed. There’s a use case and an abuse case, if you use a shield correctly it will last. They didn’t implement this with the weapons, like you should use a hammer against hard foes to smash their armor and swords against soft targets. Hitting things with elemental weapons that they don’t counter should break them, like it should be okay to hit ice enemies with a fire sword but normal enemies will wear it out, etc.

        You don’t find common weapons you’re willing to break and rare better weapons you wan to take care of, the weapons ramp up basically to match the enemies so at the beginning of the game you spend 3 minutes killing a red bokoblin with a stick, and at the end of the game you spend 3 minutes killing a silver bokoblin with a Royal Highfalutin Claymore.

        “Oh, I broke my weapon, guess I should fiddle fuck around with the weird quick menu system to pick out another. This doesn’t slam the pace of the game to a halt at all.”


        I kinda like the idea of a weapon durability system that rewards players for understanding the combat system, where if you just hold left stick forward and mash Y you’ll run out of weapons before you run out of enemies, but if you engage with the systems, attacking when the target is vulnerable, using the right weapons on the right enemies, your supplies will last longer. This would support a play model where you prepare for an adventure stocking food and gear, then go out on the adventure managing your supplies. Maybe you find very cool weapons along the way, maybe you manage to live off the land if you’re particularly skilled.

        But that’s not what we got, and it doesn’t work very well.

      • ivy
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        7 months ago

        Removed by mod

          • ivy
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            7 months ago

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            • B0rax@feddit.de
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              7 months ago

              I really don’t understand what you are talking about. I am not even a gamer.

              This is my only account.

              As I understand you are harassing that user because of some comments in another threat? Not cool…

              • ivy
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                7 months ago

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              • ivy
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                7 months ago

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                • B0rax@feddit.de
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                  7 months ago

                  What are you even on about? My account is older than both yours and the other account you are harassing.

                  Cool down a bit, there is nothing to get upset about here…

    • jkrtn
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      7 months ago

      People hate that they removed everything about the Zelda games that made them fun and charming, and left a mid grinding experience. The weapons breaking don’t really bother me much.

      Old Zelda: find a temple, new set of enemies, solve puzzles until you get to the new tool, solve puzzles with the tool, fight a large boss that the tool conveniently works really well on.

      New Zelda: find a shrine, fight yet another of these little guys. Find a shrine, solve two or three of the same puzzles with the tools you got in the first hour of gameplay. Spend large amounts of time just walking through areas of the map fighting the same campsites and outposts, hoping for a radar beep so you can find a shrine.

      • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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        7 months ago

        Yup, I finished BotW, and only because my kids wanted me to. I would frequently hand them the controller to make me some food or whatever, and I ended up looking up a guide to find the shrines for some special equipment because finding them wasn’t fun. The boss fights were okay, but they got pretty same-y (basically, find the one secret, then smack it a bunch).

        It has little to nothing to do with the Zelda games I love, so I didn’t bother getting TotK since I’ve heard it’s largely more of the same. Instead, I bought Link’s Awakening and Skyward Sword and had a really good time. Those are great Zelda games, BotW was kinda meh.

        • jkrtn
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          7 months ago

          The boss fights were okay, I guess. Once you have enough armor or hearts to survive a hit, you can just wander in with an entire restaurant of food and knock it around for a while. In the classic Zeldas you have your hearts and maybe four jars for healing, and you try to make it all the way through on that.

          The beasts were neat little puzzles but the enemies inside are like 99% purple gunk shooting floating skulls. It’s such a dull challenge. The only thing I like really enjoyed were the minigames getting inside the beasts (except the lizard), although those were all the same also.

          Maybe I’ll pick up Skyward Sword, I haven’t done that one yet. I might still get TotK, like used or something. It was still chill to wander around aimlessly looking for stuff.

          • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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            7 months ago

            Skyward Sword reminded me of Ocarina of Time, but with a bit less interesting story (imo). But it has a really unique combat system designed for the Wiimote, which is still fun with the analogue sticks (or joycon probably).

            It felt like a real Zelda game and I enjoyed it much more than BotW.

    • Aido@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      TotK didn’t introduce a way to repair weapons, it reduced their durability to near nothing then gave you a way to buff them.

      • ryven@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        7 months ago

        It did. In TotK only, put (almost) any weapon or shield on the ground in front of a Rock Octorok and let it inhale it and spit it out. You’ll get back the same base weapon, with the same fused item, at full durability, but with a rerolled modifier. Each Rock Octorok can only do this once, so kill it afterwards so that you remember which ones you’ve used. They’ll respawn at each Blood Moon so that you can repair again.

        Some special weapons can’t be repaired this way, so you have to use a workaround. If you want to keep whatever you have fused to them, go to Tarry Town and have the goron separate it. Then fuse the unrepairable weapon to anything that can be repaired. Feed that to a Rock Octorok, then take it back to Tarry Town and have it separated. The “unrepairable” weapon will good as new.

        My Eldin map is covered in stamps showing where Rock Octoroks are, and I have a full inventory of strong weapons because I switch when their durability is low and then go on a somewhat tedious repairing spree when most of my weapons are flashing red.

        • RecallMadness@lemmy.nz
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          7 months ago

          And so much of this is just grind:

          • grinding to find oktoroks
          • grinding to exponentially find more of the little seed shits, so you can increase your inventory
          • grinding to repair your weapons.

          BoTW was a grindfest, and ToTK chucked more grind on top

    • daltotron@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      It’s mostly just that it doesn’t make any fucking sense, most especially after the beginning of the game. None of the weapons are mostly diverse enough that the frequent changing created by durability encourages you to really play the game any differently, usually you have a stockpile of extra weapons anyways so you don’t really even need to pick up new stuff, and most of the hard enemies drop the weapons that deal higher damage, meaning you’ll want to use the high damage weapons on those enemies, so there’s not much decision-making going on there. After fighting enough hard enemies later in the game, you get enough high damage weapons that it’s not even really worth it to interact with most of the random bokoblin camps. Not that doing so was super interesting to begin with, outside of like the first couple hours of gameplay.

      TotK solves some of these problems with the fusion mechanic and having increased enemy variety, but it’s still not great, and most of what it does serves to assuage the shittiness of the system rather than provide a reason for it to exist in the first place.

    • LucidNightmare@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      Yeah. Weapon degradation in a video game that isn’t trying to go for a realism vibe is absolutely fucking garbage. You’ve got arrows that light on fire, turn to ice, or have lighting as soon as you pull them out of the quiver, but yeah. Totally makes sense that my Master Sword needs a lil sleepy time to become usable again. Just fucking garbage.

      • PlantDadManGuy@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        You know I absolutely hated it at first until I realized, they just did it so that we would get to experience the full range of weapon options in the game. Otherwise you just stick to the one you find early on that works the best and completely ignore everything else they give you.

        • LucidNightmare@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          Well, I’ll tell you that I tried all the weapons in the game even with the stupid durability mechanic turned off. Each weapon has its own advantages. So, with durability turned off, I had the master sword for all the mobs I didn’t feel like dealing with as I was exploring. I had a fire sword to use for tactics or to light stuff on fire/cook. A ice wand because I liked the tactical advantage, and the same can be said for the thunder wand.

          After that, every other weapon in the game was a reskin of other weapons. There was no point to them other than to have them there because of the stupid mechanic. Your rusted sword swings the exact same way as the master sword. It’s just a pin in the ass to use. Wow. That is just so fun.

          But in all seriousness, it’s just not a good mechanic to have in a video game that is not trying to be a realistic video game.

        • jkrtn
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          7 months ago

          I don’t experience the full range, though. I experience the Master Sword until it needs a nap, and then whatever crap I just picked up in my last slot because I don’t want my fancy swords to break.

          In prior Zelda games, the game designers would actually think about making monsters where certain types of attack are more effective than others. I would prefer experiencing a variety of weapons that way.

          • PlantDadManGuy@lemmy.world
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            7 months ago

            And that’s your choice. If you don’t choose specific weapons like Spears to deal with lizalfos for example, then you’re just making the game harder for yourself. As I said earlier, I hated the durability mechanic at first too. To each their own.

            • emeralddawn45@discuss.tchncs.de
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              7 months ago

              The lizalfos are trivial to just avoid until they swing at you, and then just spam the sword attack until they get staggered. All of the enemies in the game are trivial once you get used to their attacks. Literally just avoid, attack, repeat. I hated botw until I set durability to 10x in cemu. Also set revalis gale to infinite uses, because a player shouldn’t be punished for wanting to explore and you shouldn’t have to spend 20 minutes climbing to reach some relatively pointless summit with yet another cokerock hiding at the top.

            • jkrtn
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              7 months ago

              It’s not harder in any meaningful way. That’s part of what I mean. If they designed enemies better I would be actually motivated to find and use a spear or other tool. That would be more fun.

              It’s fine that you like the durability but the experience as a whole is nothing like a Zelda game. I had a good time but if I had played it expecting a Zelda game I would have been profoundly disappointed.

      • Cowbee [he/him]
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        7 months ago

        It forces resource management, decision making, and engaging with the full array of tools you have at your disposal. It also means you never run out of the need for more good weapons.

        • PlantDadManGuy@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          I agree. This mechanic was super annoying at first, but I learned to appreciate it after putting more hours into the game. Now I fully understand why the developers made it this way.

    • Rin@lemm.ee
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      7 months ago

      I think I’d be fine with it if they buffed it with everything and had a system that told you how much durability is left that isnt just the weapons’ last few hits. It feels way too low for me and is somewhat unpredictable imo.

    • kemsat@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      The entire system was trash from the get go. I don’t care that weapons break IRL; I’m playing a fucking video game, get that shit out of there.

      • Cowbee [he/him]
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        7 months ago

        It isn’t about realism, but creating a resource-management gameplay loop. Need better gear? You have to regularly work for it. It also encourages using weaker weapons in weaker areas, which makes the difficulty more consistent and fresh.

        • kemsat@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          Yeah that’s all trash. I’m playing an action adventure game, not a logistics game. Get that crap out of there.

          • Cowbee [he/him]
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            7 months ago

            It’s not that deep, lol. Again, it drives creative problem solving by adding a price to each action. Using your tools like the slate or other mechanics is free, and results in a more engaging gameplay experience than just “swing my strongest weapon forever.”

              • Cowbee [he/him]
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                7 months ago

                You believe mechanics that support interesting problems and encourage creative solutions are “unnecessary?” What would you replace it with, to get the same results?

                • ScreaminOctopus@sh.itjust.works
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                  7 months ago

                  The main problem is weapon durability is in direct contention with how the dungeons are designed. The shrine puzzles try to encourage experimentation in finding solutions, but when using the time lock tool hitting objects depletes your durability, then once you run out of weapons, you need to leave the shrine to find new weapons\materials which ends up being a big interruption in the main gameplay loop. It’s made even worse by the fact every weapon applies a different amount of force to a locked object per hit. I’m not sure what interesting and creative problem solving weapon durability adds. It really just encourages you to avoid combat and use easy to come by weapons wherever you can.

                • kemsat@lemmy.world
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                  7 months ago

                  I played the game as a rom with weapon durability turned off. It was a great game after that, previously it had been tedious, which is the exact opposite of what a game should be. I get enough tedium IRL & through talking to people like you.

                • TeryVeneno
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                  7 months ago

                  I would replace it with nothing since the system did not support interesting problem nor encourage creative solutions, it just made me button mash more to get more weapons to replace my broken ones. Once I turned it off I felt free to experiment with interesting ways to kill enemies since I wasn’t worried about my weapons anymore.

                  Combat was not an essential part of this game anyway, the puzzle solving and world were the best part. They could have just given me a set weapons that never changed and it would be essentially the same game. At least for me. The environmental interactions are just icing on the cake.

  • Tar_Alcaran@sh.itjust.works
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    7 months ago

    It’s completely true. I like to call this the Halo effect. It’s a pretty mid game that’s entirely alone on it’s platform, and therefore is massively popular and stands out.

    That doesn’t mean there aren’t some fun features, like great physics, but that doesn’t mean it’s a truly great game.

      • daltotron@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        I have played halo 1, 2, 3, and 4 front to back on legendary. It is one of my only accomplishments as a gamer, I have completed almost no other games. No ODST or Reach for me though, because I am unlucky.

        Halo is a shooter from a pre-call of duty, pre-titanfall, pre-brink, pre-mirror’s edge era. It doesn’t have really any interesting movement mechanics, and the . The grappling hook in infinite is maybe a response to this other, better variety of FPS, but I still think it kinda comes up flat. It has basically no interesting cover mechanics. Post-doom, quake, unreal tournament, and boomer shooter, though, and those had good movement, so who fuckin knows what their deal is.

        No, halo’s much slower. Halo, you have a slower walk speed, your enemy projectiles are supposed to move much slower since they’re all plasma based and you’re usually offered the opportunity to have hitscan weapons. So your movement still matters, it’s just less interesting. Most of the appeal of halo comes about as a result of this slower movement speed affording more easily made levels, with more interesting level design, and more easily made enemy AI with more interesting behaviors. Basically, where other shooters make the core gameplay as fun as possible, on the player’s side, making the player a more interesting character to control and use, Halo would rather make everything else as fun as possible, everything around that core.

        Most FPS’s just have like, open spaces, and then corridors, and then big rooms, and that’s basically it, because they can’t make the level geometry super complicated without screwing up the player’s movement options, or over-complicating everything since the player can either look at enemies or look at the level design and usually not at both at the same time, which is also why they mostly always try to keep you moving towards the enemies, or why unreal tournament relies so much on you memorizing the arenas.

        I think this means that when most people evaluate Halo, they’re doing so by measuring it against other shooters, and against this other philosophy, and Halo obviously ends up as pretty mid when measured against that. It also doesn’t help that Halo can be pretty hit and miss with this philosophy, since this relies more on very consistently interesting changes in level design and enemy variety to keep things spicy, and this novelty tends to wear off as the series inevitably chugs along. It also doesn’t help, the number of mid shooters which followed in Halo’s wake, or are reminiscent of halo specifically because of this lack of mechanical complexity, this minimalism, but without understanding what made Halo good, was that they made up for it with a lot more hard work poured into the rest of the game.

        I don’t think it would be a major mistake to call halo mid, especially on the average, and especially as the series chugs along, and there’s really just less and less to do in order to make it interesting, both in the story and in the basic design. At the same time, the series does have some pretty high highs, and probably Halo is one of the most interestingly designed first person shooters I’ve seen, because it’s so hard to see the depth at first glance.

        • Tar_Alcaran@sh.itjust.works
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          7 months ago

          You should only compare halo with its generation of shooters. Unfortunately for Halo, it came out in the same year as Max Payne, return to castle Wolfenstein, Red Faction and Ghost Recon. All much better games that had some really innovative mechanics and gameplay. Halo meanwhile had… Well the Xbox, so unlike the previous games, it didn’t split the audience.

    • Trev625@lemm.ee
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      7 months ago

      I’ve been playing through the Halo series recently as I missed the craze growing up because I had a PlayStation and I’m not really getting it. I’m guessing it’s just something you had to be there for? My first game was Super Mario World on the SNES and I loved COD4 when it dropped but trying to play Halo now is just not doing it for me I guess.

    • EnderMB@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      What’s a real game?

      I own a PS5 and a Switch, and I’d say my Switch gets the most use because of the sheer amount of great indie titles available. The new Sony and Microsoft systems still don’t have truly killer games, and they’re in the second half of their lifespan…

    • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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      7 months ago

      Nintendo games are fantastic, and I say this as a primarily PC player. My main issues are:

      • BotW is mediocre, and I’ve heard TotK is more of the same
      • games are expensive
      • graphics kinda suck

      But gameplay is always great, I’ve never been truly disappointed with a 1st party title.