- cross-posted to:
- windows@sopuli.xyz
- hackernews@lemmy.smeargle.fans
- cross-posted to:
- windows@sopuli.xyz
- hackernews@lemmy.smeargle.fans
TLDR: StartAllBack, ExplorerPatcher and some other projects are being blocked on 24H2.
One more reason to switch to Linux
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The Microsoft devs have time to do shit like this, but haven’t yet gotten the Settings screen as functional as Control Panel was two decades ago…
Do NOT blame the devs for this. They are not the ones to decide the direction of the product or the priority of the tickets they work. Blame upper management for making these poor decisions and the product managers for being spineless and not pushing back.
But Steve Ballmer told me “Developers Developers Developers Developers”
Are you saying that was a lie?
He also squealed IIRC
Does anyone else wonder which medication Steve Ballmer was prescribed but didn’t take? He always struck me as a walking check engine light.
Relevant XKCD:
Oh was he an alcoholic? See I got more cocaine vibes out of the man.
Maybe they are pushing back, which is why Control Panel still exists?
Meanwhile the new settings panel is telling me my network is private while control panel and network share settings tell me it’s domain authenticated.
…while you’re sitting in an internet café
It would be funny if true.
Sadly the reality is me calling with a client because this one single PC refuses to apply the damn GPOs… :(Every day I’m thankful for having found a job where in such a case I can just send out a pre-imaged replacement pc from the pile and have them send the old one back.
I would like to. Sadly there are programs on it that can be reinstalled and configured by the respeonsible 3rd party but are still annoying.
The best: No other pc has trouble applying the damn gpo.
Even the DNS resolutiom seems to work on this shit thing… :|
I’m pretty sure everybody knows it’s not just a couple of developers by themselves churning out windows. Even the project managers are just following orders. Marketing sets the tone upper management picks the path.
Yeah . . . marketing – the department famous for being able to steer the flagship product of a trillion-dollar company.
He said marketing sets the tone (not the path), and that is absolutely true. Many products are killed or poorly received due to the tone poor marketing set.
This is just nonsense that internet denizens tell themselves because they don’t like decisions made in board rooms and can’t conceptualize a business development team. Marketing is following orders just as much as some rando code monkey.
The scary truth is: The CEO scribbles “CLOUD 1ST”, “FOCUS ON ENTERPRISE” and “WIN AS A SERVICE” on a napkin during a 5-star dinner and everyone below them tries to make sense of it and translate it into a business strategy. No one is really in charge.
Thank you. The one arena where the fault really does lie in few enough hands they fit around a biggish table, and the Internet instead makes a nebulous boogeyman out of “marketing” (don’t get it twisted either y’all, I condone zero of the bullshit marketing practices we all hate, but that’s also the same table of people) instead of the board.
It’s not even secret information. The decision came from the minds of these folks (as they understood what they asked to be measured and think to steer to measure higher numbers of whatever they’re measuring):
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Investor/corporate-governance/board-of-directors.aspx
Unfortunately, blaming the devs seems to be a recurring problem. I remember seeing this in a YouTube comment thread (paraphrased):
why can’t i insert a bible reference without it becoming blue? i write proverbs 14:23 and youtube turns it into a damn timestamp. f-cking lazy developers, they removed dislikes, now keep preventing adblock and cannot detect a simple quote??
I replied with something like:
Hey, stop blaming the devs. It was not their decision to make the unpopular changes, and making a system for detecting if a comment is referring to a book with chapter:verse syntax (not just the bible, and all their versions & translations) is not something they would pay for. For the record, you can refer to Proverbs 14:23 or any other verse without making it a link. I can show you how but first repent and apologize for undervaluing people’s hard work.
(Yes, there’s just a ZWSP after the colon. It can be mapped to a key combo if one uses it often.) He did not answer but maybe didn’t see my reply buried way underneath – it was YouTube comments, after all. Legend says that bible references in his video description keep messing up his worship chapters.
i think its because these words are used interchangeably.
when people say ‘devs’ i believe they mean the microsoft team in general
The devs are the people who, after seeing everything that Microsoft’s done for the past 30+ years, decided to take a job there anyway.
That’s not a very valid argument.
First and foremost, most devs probably see it as a job and they do what they’re told. They don’t have the power to refute decisions coming from above.
Second, in this economy where jobs are scarer than a needle in multiple haystacks, people are desperate to get a job.
Third, yes, there may be some Microsoft (M$) fan-people who end up being devs at M$. Sure, they may willingly implement the things upper management may request. However, I’m not sure whether that’s true for most of the people who work at M$.
Your comment suggests to shift the blame to the devs who implement the features that upper management request for. Don’t shoot the (MSN) messenger.
You overestimate the agency of a developer.
I really hate having the taskbar permanently affixed to the bottom of my screen. I’ve had it on the left side for decades now. They are really throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Someone at Microsoft “Customization is the enemy of progress!”
In Win98 we were able to put the taskbar anywhere natively and even could split those quick launch toolbars out of it and put it on another side by itself. I can’t believe MS is constantly removing features. I’m a Linux user for decades now, but I still also use Windows at work and it’s always bothered me MS re-invents the wheel so often and every time the wheel looks a bit more like a rectangle.
The taskbar was movable since it was first introduced in Win95. I’ve always had a top taskbar, and will continue to do so in Linux.
I have been missing the ability to split the quick launch and dock it since XP was the last time you could. I had a dedicated auto hiding bar on the right where I put shortcuts to all of my most used folders and applications. I have looked for solutions that brought that functionality back off and on, but never found anything.
Most things are close, but not quite right, and/or very “bloated” (for what I want it to do, not necessarily for what it was designed to do). It’s so dumb.
Just a slight correction, Vista was the last time you could split toolbars off of the taskbar like that, its taskbar was basically the same as XP still. The redesign in 7 was when we lost that ability.
Will say the docked toolbars did look significantly worse in vista as they all got an wide aero border
Huh, thinking about it I’m not sure if I ever really ran Vista on my main desktop at home, so that would make sense. I think I went from my roided out XP x64 image to win 7 despite using Vista quite a bit when working on customer’s PCs. Thanks for the correction, cheers.
Why? Why even fucking do this? What do they get? And why is their default ux so aggressively terrible?
They want you to use the search instead of a functional interface. That’s why they keep making the interface worse.
It lets them spy on you through bing, allows them to fill the results with ads, and lets them hide system applications unless you know exactly how to find them.
It’s also them gearing up towards funneling the entire UX through copilot for largely the same reasons.
The entire goal is to flip the operating system from the slave of the user to the master of the content.
As to how rationales go, this is the clearest.
I hate it.
Yeah that sounds probable, and I’m worried what happens to all the data on windows machines when they do.
Almost plausible, except their search doesn’t fucking work either. I have repeatedly had the experience of typing the exact name of a program I know I have installed only for it not to appear in the incremental results. Sometimes programs will appear if you type less than the full name but then disappear if you dare type all of it. Sometimes the only way for me to find programs I want is to use an alternative launcher like the one in PowerToys. The last time start menu search actually worked was Windows 8.1. I fucking hate it, and it has driven me to make the leap to Linux for my personal computer, I am loving it so far.
That’s… Exactly what I was talking about. Master of the content.
I am fully aware that the windows search hides things that you are actually searching for. Particularly if they are system preference apps, and it always goes to bing first regardless.
Also, I bailed as well. I use windows for work and school, otherwise I’m on linux.
Yeah, I think I was actually agreeing with you, I just had a rant that wanted to get out lol
Oh God, I wish that you are wrong! Because if you’re right, that answer is horrifying!
Same. Not being able to move the taskbar, alongside all the other downgrades to it and the start menu is what got me to check out Linux as a desktop OS for real, and not just out of curiosity. So far, I don’t see going back.
And I was even one of the few dozen people who loved Win8. At least there the points that got criticized were due to sweeping and bold changes. Win11 on the other hand feels like the same as 10 but with arbitrary features removed in the core part of the OS.
I’ve had it up top for years. Windows 11 is unusable in the current state. The new shell is utter garbage. And they messed up the control panel even more than I thourght possible.
I’m on 10 and been a top taskbar guy for years. Are you saying 11 forces you to have taskbar only on bottom?
Correct
Welp fuck. Guess I’ll start looking at Linux but every company I’ve worked for in the past 10 years is ALL Microsoft all the way
Wine does a Lotta shit. I know I have an NTFS drive running on my debian-family machine.
I have no idea what you’re trying to say
Basically, they like to drink wine.
No. I’m kidding. WINE stands for WINE Is Not an Emulator, and it allows you to run Windows applications on a Linux machine. It’s far from perfect, but it can be a lifesaver when switching from Windows to Linux. What user melpomenesclevage is trying to say, is that you can use WINE to significantly blunt the blow / daily usability learning curve when switching, to keep some of your familiar applications as is.
Edit: here’s their site https://www.winehq.org/ the also explain it much better than I.
How you explained it helped a lot. So it basically is a windows emulator but isn’t for legal reasons? Lol
The fact that windows is now becoming Apple 2.0 is kinda crazy ngl lol, thought shouldn’t be surprising cuz every tech company is now doing enshittification at this point.
And yet they’re not even becoming apple in the areas where apple does well - UX consistency, battery optimisations, a reasonably well-curated app store, etc
who the hell needs an app store on PC?
Linux does a centralized, curated software repository with support for updates and it’s loved.
Windows does a centralized, curated software repository with support for updates and people question why it’s needed.
That’s because the windows one came a decade+ too late, has a bunch of restrictions (particularly at launch when you couldn’t even put desktop apps in it), and generally doesn’t fit with the ecosystem. One of the reason Linux package managers are loved is it is a one-stop-shop for all app and OS updates. The Microsoft Store doesn’t do that, nor can you add third party repositories to it (like you can in Linux) in order to attempt to make it a one-stop-shop.
A big hint here is it’s called the Microsoft Store. It doesn’t perform the same function or achieve the same goals as a Linux package manager. And that is on purpose.
At least they made a good choice with
winget.♥️
wingetmy beloved ♥️
I mean, there’s lots of things in OSes that you don’t need but are very useful to have. I love having access to Paint when I use Windows, but it’s certainly not a hard OS requirement.
I imagine you’re reeling at the idea of an app store on PC primarily because you know the Microsoft store to be absolute dog shit, and you’d be right, because it’s a steaming turd. It’s full of crap, fraudulent paid copies of open source software, outdated software because the dev hasn’t bothered to update the WinStore listing, etc.
If you look over at the Linux world and installing apps is generally as simple as: open the software centre, search for software, press the install button, you’re done. Updates will be done either manually or automatically through the software centre, for all of your apps.
Now, contrast that with what people actually do on Windows (because they sure as fuck aren’t using the MS store): open your web browser (hey btw we noticed you’re not using Edge, do you want to switch???), search for the software, make sure to click the link to the correct website (which isn’t always obvious if you don’t know the developer name), navigate to the download page, select Windows [version] x86_64, open your downloads folder, run the installer with admin permissions, go through an installer, delete the installer file, delete the shortcut it added to your desktop. Updates will be handled by an updater service for each individual app and most love to start running immediately after booting your machine.
A better app store is absolutely something Microsoft should be looking into
that’s true. on Linux, I used the software center or whatever. Microsoft store tho? never
Thing is, I think Microsoft has a vested interest/legal responsibility to their shareholders to make sure the Windows Store is as constipated as possible.
They can’t have Firefox or Chrome in there, they have to push their browser, Edge, because their shareholders will sue them if they facilitate installing someone else’s spyware instead of their own. They don’t put old versions of Solitaire or FreeCell in there, because the new ones run ads. Third parties are either as evil as Microsoft, or they won’t touch their store with a barge pole.
So what’s in the Microsoft store? Office, Minecraft Bedrock Edition, and a bunch of worthless crap you’ve never heard of.
They’re not becoming Apple 2.0, Apple is becoming Microsoft 2.0. If you look into the history of Microsoft and Windows, you’ll see that they’ve always been this way, but have received more pushback in the past. Microsoft is the OG tech giant empire.
They’re not exactly “being blocked” but rather the legacy ability to tell explorer.exe to load the older style Taskbar, which those apps load then modify, is going away. I’m not defending this nor do I like it, but it would be like saying some Linux distro is BLOCKING customization because some legacy app dependent on Xorg will not work after they switch to Wayland.
They’re not exactly “being blocked”
Simply renaming the executable works to re-enable Start All Back. They are being intentionally blocked by Microsoft.
Like in the case of StartAllBack, you can bypass the block by simply renaming the executable to something else. If you want to upgrade to a newer build, delete the app, update your system, and then launch it using a renamed executable.
Not if you’re using the preview build, where the entire functionality is removed. The warning is just a preemptive preparation for beta users. The bottom of the article indirectly mentions this.
But sure, downvote me.
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The article is actually incomplete. Some insider builds already lack the old taskbar, it can’t be invoked and if an application relies on it you simply get a crash.
This is not new behavior from Windows. When legacy features are going to be removed, they do stagger updates when users have known software conflicts installed, they also might throw warnings. This is exactly what we are seeing now.
Though the fact this small article is just reporting on Reddit information rather than testing insider builds is not my fault nor my concern.
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sounds like a 21st century version of quack3.exe.
They are, to the best of Microsoft security professionals’ abilities
Just kidding, the devs are probably using ExplorerPatcher themselves and are sabotaging this asshole move
A Microsoft representative (?) opened an issue for Explorer Patcher:
Hi Team,
This is to let you know that Win10 taskbar code is removed. And if use continue to use ExplorePatcheron Windows GE Build, they will see a crash. You only need to adjust the setup exe name to get around the block in your new version. We will continue to block ANY version that crashes Explorer.
Please let me know if you have any question.
Thanks Michelle
Makes sense to me.
Didn’t know that. Thanks for the info.
Shame somebody removed that code. At least RetroBar will still work. Hopefully.
If only there was a way to know who removed the code
it is a mystery 👻
Why is Microsoft even deciding what programs I can run on my computer in the first place? They’re not malware, they shouldn’t be doing this at all.
It’s the Windows Defender component. Blocking things that interfere with your computer is literally what it was designed and intended to do.
Good news hidden in the article:
Like in the case of StartAllBack, you can bypass the block by simply renaming the executable to something else. If you want to upgrade to a newer build, delete the app, update your system, and then launch it using a renamed executable.
@OP: People who are modifying Windows this deeply are not going to switch to Linux. If you’re going through this much trouble, you’ve already tried Linux several times and left disillusioned every time. Linux does not compete with Windows as a desktop operating system and I doubt it ever will. It simply does not offer the compatibility and ease of use (including for power users) that Windows - for all its faults - has.
People who are modifying Windows this deeply are not going to switch to Linux
Yeah. Not just to avoid a quick file rename.
Although, I started out as someone who modified Windows that deeply, and I ended up on Linux.
One of my reasons for switching was when my favorite Windows mod stopped working, and there was no recourse.
This sounds like it goes beyond that and the Windows team is actively pushing modders out?
I think this will have an effect, and we will get more migrations.
Yep, Microsoft is also blocking some github scripts for disabling telemetry,etc. They are just making it worse for themselves
What do you mean?
Are these scripts being distributed via github or disabling telemetry on github?
I mean PowerShell scripts used to disable telemetry services on Windows.
That’s why you block the telemetry at the router level as a big fat fuck you.
I switched when a Windows update for the third time in a month forcibly changed the default pdf and html file association to edge.
That was like 5 years ago, and I’ve never looked back.
Anyone could just as easily say:
Windows does not compete with macOS as a desktop operating system and I doubt it ever will. It simply does not offer the compatibility and ease of use (including for power users) that macOS - for all its faults - has.
Windows isn’t compatible with Final Cut Pro, has a lackluster implementation of Adobe Photoshop comparatively, and has no support for common cli shells such as bash or zsh (without creating an emulated subsystem ala Cygwin or WSL). Setting up a Windows desktop for my day-to-day tasks is a huge pain as opposed to macOS or a Linux-based desktop OS.
You are right about some points, though what the original comment meant by compatibility is probably industry software.
I think a lot of people have a few killer apps that just don’t work on Linux even with WINE. Hell, I’ve heard that VR is not worth it on Linux. There are edge cases like that, that need to be sorted some way. Hopefully whatever Valve is doing wrt their supposed standalone VR headset helps there.
This comment is simply wrong. Linux doesn’t compete with Windows desktop because it’s already ahead of it.
People who are modifying Windows this deeply are not going to switch to Linux
I did. I was a heavy Windows customizer and deeply understand it as an operating system and target for application development. I left because, at some point, I realized the OS I (one way or another) paid for was treating me like a product instead of a user, and I resent that. I don’t like the feeling of slowly losing grip on the OS as it slides into becoming adtech tooling for marketing interests instead of the thing that runs programs for me. Despite my entrenched Windows knowledge, none of my primary personal computers run it anymore, including my gaming PC. Adaptation is a lot easier than most people expect, in my opinion.
Linux does not compete with Windows as a desktop operating system and I doubt it ever will.
Surely it doesn’t, the former is a good system, the latter is monopolistic shit supported by people with duckling syndrome and those who know no better.
EDIT:
does not offer the compatibility and ease of use (including for power users) that Windows - for all its faults - has.
I hope you don’t mean those google-fu masters by “power users”, but otherwise this wouldn’t make any sense.
There’s a wide gulf between googlers and power users, and between power users and the “truly skilled”. I’m a Systems “Engineer” with nearly a decade experience in Tech Support, SysAdmin work, building custom system integrations/interop layers, and building custom automations.
Got no problem doing deep troubleshooting, compiling from source, finding issues in open source code bases, fixing them, submitting pull requests, etc.
Doesn’t mean I want to have to do all that regularly when I have other shit to get done.
yup
Power users are the exact people who would get the most benefit out of Linux, though. Speaking as one of them who got sick and tired of Windows’ bullshit. I’d argue Linux already very much competes with Windows, and has many advantages sourced from it being an open and not profit driven operating system.
Finally do I have an operating system that actually tries to work with me to get what I want, rather than tries to obstruct me every part of the way because “it knows best” or whatever windows tries to do.
Why is Microsoft trying to shoot itself in the foot once again? One of the big reasons I like Windows more than MacOS is the customizability. When your market share is declining, you shouldn’t add more reasons to switch to something else.
If you like customizability,vwhy not try Linux with KDE? It’s the definition of customizability.
Joke’s on you I have a desktop running KDE Neon
Seriously though, I’m not even that big into customizability, I just like having a taskbar with icons and some critical statuses (battery percentages anyone? Even Apple learned their lesson on that one.) on any side of the screen, and I like having good versatile touchpad gestures, achievable on GNOME with a couple extensions.
Currently needing to run Windows 11 on my laptop, not by choice basically by light force of wifi drivers as I need wifi for my daily workload and dumb MediaTek have not great Linux support, there is a small in works dkms GitHub repo but that’s it
Windows 11 development was led by the UI team that led Windows 8, and a team responsible for more of the internal Windows development was responsible for Windows 10. You can kind of tell by Windows 11 being an arbitrary UI change with numerous regressions.
What they are doing has that upside of being an indicator of “how many people are really held by the balls with MS hand”. MS “shoots itself in the foot” and Windows users just eat it, then it can do more.
When you are a monopolist (or a bully, or a robber baron), this makes sense.
Wow, now I’m really glad I switched to Linux. Windows? Never again.
Turns out they don’t like people disabling their adware.
I don’t get people reacting to Windows critique with that “there are scripts and tools to disable anything”, some even have the gall to compare it to how I use Linux.
When we are talking about adware and spyware right from the vendor, who has the figurative “make shit really mandatory” button. Who is all-powerful there.
Aaand another reason to stay with 10.
I give until 2027 for win 10 pc that cannot upgrade to become large botnet
Windows 10 is filled with shit decisions too. And it won’t be supported much longer anyway. If you want to keep using Windows, but not 11, it’s going to be advisable that you use it offline only.
You’re right on all counts.
And I am not happy about about any of this.
Of yeah, and then there is this: Microsoft’s draconian Windows 11 restrictions will send an estimated 240 million PCs to the landfill when Windows 10 hits end of life in 2025
Hope FTC does something before this deadline hits.
Amazing how Windows die-hards will go to literally any lengths not to switch to Linux.
The moment Adobe Creative Cloud works on Linux, I’ll switch. Until then I’ll have to stick with Windows.
I still can’t believe Linux only have 5% of OS market share
I can. Do you really think computer savvy people are the majority of computer users?
It’s painful that this needs to be mentioned, and that people will actively argue that it’s not true…
I can too. A lot of people don’t know Linux exists
The majority of desktop users are within organizations with people who administer all of the PCs. They use Windows server to do this, which is actually mind boggling, but they do it somehow. It would be easier to do it with Linux, but most admins are stuck with what tools that already have.
While that’s true but some DE nowadays make it easier for general consumer to install/using Linux as their main os, I think some people even scared of Linux and didn’t wanna touch it and that’s a shame
In either case, you still need to install a new OS, which is already a technical hurdle in itself, and know enough command line to fix things when they break/update packages, or to access things that might not have a UI.
Yeah, maybe someday Windows become so bad that people will do anything to get rid of it, I confess that I’m still using Windows 10 to play most of my games but I will ditch Windows once it reached EOL (I use Open SUSE for web browsing and documents editing and it’s been great so far)
There is nothing tech savy in linux, if you use the right distro. Moreover, mostly tech savy people customize their OS and not average users. If an user can install an app for customizing, then linux is no more different.
if you use the right distro
Exactly, a sad amount of people wouldn’t be able to install windows if they had to. They definitely won’t be finding the right distro then installing.
You say this.
But its just not true.
It took my of all of a day with Linux mint before she needed to open up a command line and do things.
I love Linux . i would kill for Linux. Have killed for linux. And wil kill again for Linux. What’s that, tux? Sudo for person in store; do “$festoon_the_walls_with_their_guts”? If [[ -e $police ]]; then -eval sudo_works_in_real_,life; find / -type “*god” -exec /platonic_root/deicide police surviving_bystanders news_crews: fi; done
You’re always looking out for me bud. Sure I’ll do it.
You don’t really need any skills to use modern Linux. I would argue that it’s easier to use than Windows for someone who has basic googling skills. Windows have an annoying habit of getting in the way of the user and making things much harder than they need to be. For example, needing to use the registry editor for basic configuration options.
No regular Joe will ever need to use regedit, you’re thinking with yourself as reference, the majority of computer users aren’t going to configure shit. They just get a computer with Windows installed and they start using it.
While Mixrosoft produces questionable software, they are really good at ugly marketing strategies.
It is imo literally unbelievable that e.g. the EU is not enforcing an own OS (that the EU and not another country can control) on the EU members administrations and militaries. Microsoft is good with stuff like this.
The volumes of cash that Microsoft throw at retailers (custom builders / big box) is astronomical. Worked for a relatively small retailer with some international buying power. EOFY “MDF” from Microsoft was an absurd figure.
Our builders would belt out 3 - 6 machines per day, depending on complexity of the custom build, the pre-built machines were in the 6+ per day range.
Considering the vast majority of those machines were running windows (some sold without an os), from a quick estimate after too many beers we were out of pocket 10% at most of the bulk buy price for licence keys after our “market development funds” came through.
It’s fucking crook.
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They are forced to use Windows, like me
The irony is that people create these tools mostly because they’re frustrated by the limited customisation options provided by default. If Microsoft ever listens to feedback, it’s quite limited, and it takes ages for the new stuff get implemented; moreover very often you just about get used to something and the rug gets pulled from under your feet.
It’s insane that they can’t display the same identical task bar on 2 screens 20+ years after enabling support for multiple displays. It’s frustrating to no end having to look for stuff all over the place.
The lack of a small taskbar mode was all it took for me to never upgrade. Just shows MS doesn’t care about its users.
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Micro$oft are being dicks again, film at 11 but here’s the thing - if you’re interested in customizing Windows - just grab that live distro and get to it man. Linux is here and it’s ready for prime time.
At this point Windows is just for businesses who don’t know better (or refuse to learn) and people who haven’t been told The Good News yet.
Sorry, it’s not ready for prime time.
It’s great for advanced users who are willing to put in the effort to work for them as a desktop.
It’s also great as a host for services.
And is dogshit in a business environment.
As some background - I had my first UNIX class in about 1990. I wrote my first Fortran program on a Sperry Rand Univac (punched cards) in about 1985. Cobol was immediately after Fortran (wish I’d stuck with Cobol). So I was in IT working before Linux existed.
I run a Mint laptop. Power management is a joke. Configured it as best as possible, walked in the other day and it was dead. Windows would never do this, unless you went out of your way to config power management to kill the battery.
There no way even possible via the GUI to config power management for things like low/critical battery conditions /actions.
There are many reasons why Linux doesn’t compete with Windows on the desktop - this is just one glaring one. So many run-of-the mill things that take effort to deal with.
Now let’s look at Office. Open an Excel spreadsheet with tables in any app other than excel. Tables are something that’s just a given in excel, takes 10 seconds to setup, and you get automatic sorting and filtering, with near-zero effort. No, I’m not setting up a DB in an open-source competitor to Access. That’s just too much effort for simple sorting and filtering tasks, and isn’t realistically shareable with other people.
There’s that print monitor that’s on by default, and can only be shut up by using a command line. Wtf? In the 21st century?
Networking… Yea, samba works, but how do you clear creds you used one time to connect to a share, even though you didn’t say “save creds”? Oh, yea, command line again or go download an app to clear them for for you. Smh.
Someone else said it better than me:
Every time I’ve installed Linux as my main OS (many, many times since I was younger), it gets to an eventual point where every single thing I want to do requires googling around to figure out problems. While it’s gotten much better, I always ended up reinstalling Windows or using my work Mac. Like one day I turn it on and the monitor doesn’t look right. So I installed twenty things, run some arbitrary collection of commands, and it works… only it doesn’t save my preferences.
So then I need to dig into .bashrc or .bash_profile (is bashrc even running? Hey let me investigate that first for 45 minutes) and get the command to run automatically… but that doesn’t work, so now I can’t boot… so I have to research (on my phone now, since the machine deathscreens me once the OS tries to load) how to fix that… then I am writing config lines for my specific monitor so it can access the native resolution… wait, does the config delimit by spaces, or by tabs?? anyway, it’s been four hours, it’s 3:00am and I’m like Bryan Cranston in that clip from Malcolm in the Middle where he has a car engine up in the air all because he tried to change a lightbulb.
And then I get a new monitor, and it happens all damn over again. Oh shit, I got a new mouse too, and the drivers aren’t supported - great! I finally made it to Friday night and now that I have 12 minutes away from my insane 16 month old, I can’t wait to search for some drivers so I can get the cursor acceleration disabled. Or enabled. Or configured? What was I even trying to do again? What led me to this?
I just can’t do it anymore. People who understand it more than I will downvote and call me an idiot, but you can all kiss my ass because I refuse to do the computing equivalent of building a radio out of coconuts on a deserted island of ancient Linux forum posts because I want to have Spotify open on startup EVERY time and not just one time. I have tried to get into Linux as a main dev environment since 1997 and I’ve loved/liked/loathed it, in that order, every single time.
I respect the shit out of the many people who are far, far smarter than me who a) built this stuff, and 2) spend their free time making Windows/Mac stuff work on a Linux environment, but the part of me who liked to experiment with Linux has been shot and killed and left to rot in a ditch along the interstate.
Now I love Linux for my services: Proxmox, UnRAID, TrueNAS, containers for Syncthing, PiHole, Owncloud/NextCloud, CasaOS/Yuno, etc, etc. I even run a few Windows VM’s on Linux (Proxmox) because that’s better than running Linux VM’s on a Windows server.
Linux is brilliant for this stuff. Just not brilliant for a desktop, let alone in a business environment, or for most users who are used to Windows/Office.
If it were 40 years ago, maybe Linux would’ve had a chance to beat MS, even then it would’ve required settling on a single GUI (which is arguably half of why Windows became a standard, the other half being a common API), a common build (so the same tools/utilities are always available), and a commitment to put usability for the inexperienced user first.
These are what MS did in the 1980’s to make Windows attractive to the 3 groups who contend with desktops: developers, business management, end users.
As a very advanced user, I just don’t have the time to play fuck-fuck with Linux on a desktop - I have work to do with what little time I have.
Here’s a question: if Linux truly competes with Windows, why don’t massive organizations that have the IT manpower/expertise use it for their desktops? They’d save millions in licensing alone. Why is it they feel those tens of millions are better spent on contracts with MS?
See, ive had Linux problems, but my problem with windows is that I gave to actively fight the system to get anything done. It feels like PvP, and there’s fiat bullshit reverts of stuff. And the GUI is runny garbage!
Linux isn’t good enough, I agree.
But windows is far enough into enshitification that it isnt either anymore, and its getting worse. So fucking fast; its getting worse. I fucking miss usable windows; I’d still be on 7 if I could. But I can’t.
So if at this point Linux isn’t adequate, that means computers aren’t adequate. I use Linux so I don’t lose my computer, so it can do something at least.
There’s a bunch of problems with this post, but I’ll start by saying that at different times over the last decade I have certainly agreed that Linux just consumes too much of my time to use in a business environment. I’m rocking linux at work over the last few months, but just on Friday for example I booted into Windows because I couldn’t get a god damn Teams screen share to work.
Firstly, your post kind of deals with “business” as though all businesses have homogeneous use cases. Of course Linux might be more suitable for some businesses rather than others.
For power management, IDK what you’re saying really. I’m running a stock debian environment. I’ve never looked at these settings before but it took me literally 5 seconds to find the “Automatic Power Saver” options for low battery situations. Perhaps you want something specific that doesn’t exist but IDK, I don’t think this is really a deal breaker for business.
I’m not really sure what you’re getting at with Excel vs LibreOffice Calc. There’s 5 people on my team and we all use Calc all day every day. It’s fine. The features we use are “moderately complex”, as in complex functions, pivot tables, filtering, et cetera. No macros or db connections. Yes I’m sure some people use Excel in ways that Calc might struggle with, but I’m also sure the reverse is also true. Yes Calc has a more humble vibe.
if Linux truly competes with Windows, why don’t massive organizations that have the IT manpower/expertise use it for their desktops? They’d save millions in licensing alone.
This is a complex question. I think part of the answer is simply that this wasn’t always the case, a decade ago Linux was much less viable than it is today.
Orgs and individuals have built up a gargantuan amount of knowledge around and within the Windows ecosystem, and that knowledge has value. This means that moving to another platform will have huge training and support and specialist costs, even if the underlying platform is free.
Also, I’m sure you’ve seen the recent posts about whatever German state migrating 30,000 machines to Linux. You’ve probably also heard of that other German city that developed LiMux and ran it successfully for a decade and how desperate MS was to win them back.
As I started off by saying, yes there are problems, and I agree that Linux might be out of reach for many businesses for the next few years. However, the compelling issue I encounter regularly is compatibility with the microsoft ecosystem. That’s not so much the fault of Linux itself, but really a network effect problem. If everyone started using linux tomorrow microsoft would ensure teams would work without issue.
Curiously, for me it’s more or less the other way around, in a sense. I run Linux on both my Desktop and my Laptop, and feel that after setting them up the way I like, I am more productive than under Windows. In Windows, I oftentimes had the feeling that I had to work against the OS whenever I wanted to configure it in a way that wasn’t quite standard, while I tend to feel that I can work with the OS when using Linux. Especially Win11 introduced lots of things that detracted from the user experience for me, and where only changeable by editing the registry, which isn’t great.
I do recognise that parts, or even most of that probably isn’t applicable to the standard user, but as what could reasonably be called a power user, I never really had any problems working with Linux.
I’d also say that for non-power users, people who mainly work within Word processors, or their browser, a stable LTS distros can in some cases be less hassle than Windows.
Regarding Excel - gotta give that to you, I always felt that Excel in isolation was good software, and I am not aware of any replacement that’s equally as friendly to non-programmer users, while also being equally as capable.
Regarding your last point - Dunno, I don’t work there. I would however raise that inertia can be quite powerful. No one ever got fired for buying IBM, no one ever got fired for licensing Windows. Doesn’t mean that there aren’t other, possibly good, reasons.
Linux isnt quite ready for prime time.
But neither is windows anymore, and Linux isnt generally shitting itself and taking features, features you might rely on away from you
The fucking precarity of modern windows, man. Plus the amount it must spy on you.
Good for you I guess but good luck with commercial software development when your whole toolchain is Windows only. Same for video games, and Proton only works properly if you have a new GPU which supports all the Vulkan features.
This will be true when Linux supports anticheat (well, when anticheat supports Linux).
Sure, not everyone uses their computer for gaming, but I’m sure a lot would like the option.
well, when anticheat supports Linux
It certainly does in many games. Helldivers 2, Hunt: Showdown, and Warframe are rated gold on Linux, Guild Wars 2 is rated platinum. Those are the first four multiplayer games that came to mind.
You have my attention, as someone who’s been considering switching my main to a Linux.
Those are all great games, but the unfortunate truth is that you’re still going to be limited. Some people may be totally okay with only playing the games that get support but I feel like I’d always feel like I’m missing out if a game I’m really interested in doesnt.
only games you’ll be missing is games with invasive kernal level drm/anticheat.
most people with common sense tend to avoid those games and their rootkits to begin with, so you’re really missing nothing by switching.
Sometimes theres a game that doesnt run great at the moment but within 3-6 months runs like a dream.
I’ll switch to Linux when Visual Studio Community (NOT Code) works on it and I never have to touch the command line ever again.
Just switch to code.
I put in the effort to redesign my work flow from VS (Enterprise license) to VS Code (totally free) earlier this year. I thought it couldn’t be done, but it was easier than I thought. I’m super happy with the result as I hated what they did with recent VS versions. Microsoft just can’t stop fucking up perfectly fine UIs in the name of “progress”.
Got any highlights of things you had to adjust to?
The biggest thing is the UI being completely different. I did use VS Code before, but only for my own projects, not stuff for work. So I did know how to use VS Code, but still it’s a major mental adjustment with everything being in a different place, features and shortcuts working differently etc.
I really missed to Solution Explorer, which is probably my most used tool during work. But thankfully there is an excellent plugin which provides a Solution Explorer in VS Code. It’s a bit different from what I’m used to but it works just fine.
Normally for casual profiling I’d use VS builtin tools. Only switching to something like DotMemory when really diving into optimization. This seems to be missing from VS Code. Probably there’s a plugin to fix that, but I want to keep the number of plugins to a minimum to prevent issues of plugins not being updated or having compatibility issues as much as possible. So now I switched to a different work flow for this to use tools like DotMemory sooner instead of the builtin stuff from VS.
Resharper isn’t available for VS Code yet, but I don’t mind it. Some of my colleagues use it, but I prefer to do everything myself anyways and not use automated tools for code.
I miss the Nuget package manager. Everything can be done using the terminal, both in VS and VS Code, which works the same. But the UI provided by the manager is so nice, it shows all the info you need, let’s you do almost anything with two clicks. I’ve checked out some plugins which are supposed to help with this, but have found none as good as the VS package manager. I’m proficient enough with the terminal it doesn’t really matter, but I still miss the manager and find myself checking different sources manually which used to be a lot more efficient. So I’ve taken an efficiency hit here, but I still can get the job done.
Having everything done in the terminal panel takes some getting used to, where VS often launches different windows to get different kind of outputs. This is just something to get used to and could probably be changed in the settings, but I think it’s fine.
In VS the project is launched as a separate process and then VS attaches itself to the process for debug and inspection purposes. In VS Code it’s a subprocess of the main editor process. This has some implications using third party tools for profiling for example. But I haven’t noticed anything going wrong. I think the way VS does it is better, but it’s probably fine? In theory an application could crash the whole VS Code process. But my code never crashes so I should be fine, right?
Running and debugging is different but fine, with different profiles and debugging flags being managed from the UI and working perfectly. Publishing however is done only using the terminal, not the UI. Everything I need is available, but it took some figuring out how I need to do stuff using the terminal with regards to publishing. I’ve created a page on Confluence for myself with all the different stuff, which flags etc. It took some time but I think I’ve got everything figured out.
For version management we already used a third party tool, so luckily no changes there. I have had to set some new ignores, but other than that no changes.
Creating new projects is something I haven’t figured out how to do. For work I only ever work in existing projects that have been around for ages. I don’t know how easy it would be to create something new with all the required files and parameters so my colleagues can also use it. The other day I wanted to quickly check something in an empty project and I had to reach for VS again (for shame). I need to put in some time figuring this out in VS. It’s probably not complicated, but as I said I wanted to check something quickly so I didn’t have the time.
There are probably a thousand little things I have changed or have to get used to. But these are the main ones.
As someone who genuinely loves the command line - I’d like to know more about your perspective. (Genuinely. I solemnly swear not to try to convince you of my perspective.)
What about GUIs appeals to you over a command line?
I like the CLI because it feels like a conversation with the computer. I explain what I want, combining commands as necessary, and the machine responds.
With GUIs I feel like I’m always relearning tools. Even something as straightforward as ‘find and replace’ has different keyboard shortcuts in most of the text-editing apps I use - and regex support is spotty.
Not to say that I think the terminal is best for all things. I do use an IDE and windowing environments. Just that - when there are CLI tools I tend to prefer them over an equivalent GUI tool.
Anyway, I’m interested to hear your perspective- what about GUIs works better for you? What about the CLI is failing you?
Thank you!
Not OP. Used Linux since the late 90s. My daily driver is NixOS. GUI here is synonymous with TUI.
What about GUIs appeals to you over a command line?
I like the GUI because I can see what options the tool can execute in this state. I don’t have to pass
--helptogrepor keep several man page sections open. The machine knows what it’s capable of and I direct it.With CLIs I feel like I’m always relearning tools. Even something as straightforward as ‘enable a flag’ has different syntax. Is it
-flag?--flag?--enable-flag? Oh look, a checkbox.Not to say that I think a window environment is best for all things. When using an IDE, I have the terminal open constantly. Programmers are as bad at visual interfaces as they are module interfaces. If no UX designer was involved in displaying complex data or situations, I’m likely to try to fall back to the commandline. Just that - when there are GUI tools I tend to prefer them over an equivalent CLI tool.
tl;dr GUIs can represent the current state of a complex process and provide relevant context, instead of requiring the user to model that information (with large error bars for quality of the UI).
Anyway, I hope you take this in good humor and at least consider a TUI for your next project.
I hope you take this in good humor and at least consider a TUI for your next project.
Absolutely. I see what you did there… 😉
But seriously, thank you for your response!
I think your comment about GUIs being better at displaying the current state and context was very insightful. Most CLI work I do is generally about composing a pipeline and shoving some sort of data through it. As a class of work, that’s a common task, but certainly not the only thing I do with my PC.
Multistage operations like, say, Bluetooth pairing I definitely prefer to use the GUI for. I think it is partially because of the state tracking inherent in the process.
Thanks again!
Thanks for your reasonable reply and question! As for what I love about UI, it’s simple;
I don’t have to remember what to enter, just the pathway to get there.
With command line, you have to remember commands, arguments, syntax, and gods forbid you enter something wrong. It won’t work.
But with a (decently designed) UI, you merely have to remember the path you took to get to wherever you want to go, what buttons to press, what mouse movements to execute.
As someone with a limited attention span and energy to do things, this is a lifesaver.
As for Visual Studio, that’s a development preference. Code is too different for me to be comfortable in it, and relies on command line too much.
Thank you for responding! I really liked this bit
with a (decently designed) UI, you merely have to remember the path you took to get to wherever you want to go, what buttons to press, what mouse movements to execute.
I think that’s very insightful. I certainly have developed muscle-memory for many of my most-frequent commands in the CLI or editor of choice.
I agree about Visual Studio as a preference. I’ve used (or at least tried) dozens of IDE setups down the years from vi/emacs to JetBrains/VS to more esoteric things like Code Bubbles. I’ve found my personal happy place but I’d never tell someone else their way of working was wrong.
(Except for emacs devs. (Excepting again evil-mode emacs devs - who are merely confused and are approaching the light.)) ;)
I can’t use win11 without explorerpatcher, if it stops working I won’t know what to do
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