- cross-posted to:
- 196@lemmy.blahaj.zone
- cross-posted to:
- 196@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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saw someone say maybe another trump win is good because it will mobilize the left a little more
threw up in my mouth a bit through the tears
It’s a round about way of saying they want a civil war.
A lot of those types of leftists fantasize about a glorious revolution, but many revolutions have happened and no utopias exist so…
I think Contrapoints made the same argument in one of her videos.
Agreed. I would add to that – there’s actually an incredibly instructive example to draw by looking at the non-violent-revolutionary movements that did achieve big social change in the past. The US labor movement in the late 1800s, Gandhi’s independence movement, the US civil rights movement with its partial victory, things like that. There are a ton of examples of people who achieved big things to revise the systems that rule their daily lives, starting from a way less advantaged position than the left in the modern day US. It’s not easy, no, but compared to an Indian person under the British Raj it’s an absolute cakewalk.
Strangely enough, the people who are so incredibly upset with the broken system in the US as it pertains to this election (which, yeah, I get that), are somehow totally uninterested in looking at what actions big or small might produce positive change. They’re solely focused on criticizing Biden and only Biden, or on saying that it’s so broken that we might as well let Trump come to power because what’s the difference.
It’s like “The plane is having engine trouble and I don’t know if we’re going to make it. I’m real scared and upset about the situation we’re in. I know! Let’s shoot the pilot in the head.”
Wasn’t the us labor movement violent? I seem to remember something about troops firing on striking miners.
Mine owners utilized violence and essentially wage slavery to keep miners from unionizing and asking for more fair working conditions. Pinkertons got their reputation as being violent corporate mercenaries in this period, and they continue to be. The violence caused miners to fight back, and when they did the US army got involved usually in the interest of the mine owners. The lead up to the Battle of Blair Mountain is one of the best examples of this and maybe the most impactful.
It was nonviolent, until bosses/police starting shooting miners and their families, at which point it developed into a small-scale civil war. So yes, I shouldn’t have simply said blanket non violent I guess… I was just trying to draw a distinction between “let’s fight for justice for ourselves” versus “let’s storm the capital and do away with the leaders” as two roads (with the first being more effective, and the second often leading to catastrophe instead of the progress that was hoped for.)
Labor rights and the labor movement throughout history in the US have been incredibly violent so I don’t know what revisionist history you’re talking about.
You’re right, I should amend my comment to note that it wasn’t non violent and basically a small-scale civil war
Oh, hang on
(Actually, I do think I should have said it was nonviolent until they started shooting railroad workers, since that one came first. I’m a little fuzzy on the exact chronology but I think that would have been more accurate yes. The person I was responding to just said miners so I said miners.)
They would engage in retaliatory violence but the first shot was never fired by the labor organizers
I love how centrists will confidently cite the civil rights movement without a hint of irony, and then completely ignore what those civil rights leaders had to say about the objections of moderates over direct action. They’ll silently downvote a direct quote from MLK without engaging with how it somehow doesn’t apply to them.
Direct action on Gaza sounds great.
Are you under the impression that MLK was saying, don’t vote for Boutwell in his election against Bull Connor, because Boutwell isn’t good enough to deserve our support?
He’s not making a comment on voting or not voting at all, in fact this is written after Boutwell was elected.
He’s addressing criticisms that directing protests at Boutwell before he has a chance to govern is misplaced and ill-timed, and he’s pointing out that while Boutwell may be gentler, he’s still a segregationist and is still in need of pressure. It doesn’t matter if one is gentler than the other, the goal remains the same, and no freedom is ever given by the oppressor without being demanded.
Biden is gentler, but he’s still a Zionist, and so he is still in need of pressure.
In case you’re unfamiliar with the rest of his letter, he’s also saying that the purpose of all direct action is to place pressure on moderates so that they may come to the negotiation table, even -and especially- direct action that causes material (in MLK’s case, non-violent) harm to those same moderates.
We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was “well timed” in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation
And I haven’t even gotten to the Malcom X quotes.
They also seem to leave out the reality that without the threat of Malcom MLK would have been a lot less effective.
I know what he’s saying, yes. Like I say, pressure on Biden over Gaza sounds great, and it actually seems like it’s having an impact, although it’s still pretty fuckin mild compared with what the US should be doing.
Later in his life Malcolm X realized much of his youthful positions on things was stupid and he retracted them.
Well said.
I believe a fraction of them are actual authoritarian sympathizers, and are just hoping “their brand” will align with a future hypothetical autocrat.
They don’t want actual justice, they just want to reroll the dice and hopefully come out on top.
To the other fraction, I think those folks are exactly the folks who completed those movements you mentioned. They worked hard to push the existing system towards their goal, often starting from a very weak position.
That pushing largely isn’t done, and it is less glamorous and obvious compared to flipping the table, killing the current leaders (and a bunch of other demonized but innocent groups oopsie daisy) and trying again. That’s how you get a Khmer rouge and then a pol pot.
We need another MLK and his contemporaries.
I agree, we really need some leftists who have the backbone of MLK.
Now let me say a word for those of you who are on strike. You’ve been out now for a number of days. But don’t despair. Nothing worthwhile is gained without sacrifice. The thing for you to do is stay together. Say to everybody in this community that you’re going to stick it out to the end until every demand is met. And that you’re going to say, “We ain’t going to let nobody turn us around.” Let it be known everywhere that along with wages and all of the other securities that you are struggling for, you’re also struggling for the right to organize and be recognized…
We can all get more together than we can apart. This is the way to gain power. Power is the ability to achieve purpose. Power is the ability to effect change. We need power…
Now the other thing is that nothing is gained without pressure. Don’t let anybody tell you to go back on your job and paternalistically say, now, “You’re my man, and I’m going to do the right thing for you if you’ll just come back on the job.” Don’t go back on the job until the demands are met. Never forget that freedom is not something that must be demanded by the oppressor. It is something that must be demanded by the oppressed. Freedom is not some lavish dish that the power structure and the white forces imparted with making positions will voluntarily hand down on a silver platter while the Negro merely furnishes the appetite.
If we are going to get equality, if we are going to get adequate wages, we are going to have to struggle for it. Now, you know what, you may have to escalate the struggle a bit. If they keep refusing, and they will not recognize the union, and will not decree further check-off for the collection of dues, I’m telling you what you ought to do, and you’re together here enough to do it. In a few days you ought to get together and just have a general work stoppage in the city of Memphis.
Now that shit will fire you up. Good stuff.
Notice he was very forceful and determined, but never said stupid stuff like “hurr let’s get the guillotine!”
Nor did he say “hurr it’s your duty to vote for the lesser-evil!”
Lol what a fruitful day of reading: since you mentioned Gandhi…
Non-cooperation with evil is as much a duty as is cooperation with good.
Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French.
A ‘No’ uttered from the deepest conviction is better than a ‘Yes’ merely uttered to please, or worse, to avoid trouble.
Fear has its use but cowardice has none.
Man lives freely only by his readiness to die, if need be, at the hands of his brother, never by killing him.
It is any day better to stand erect with a broken and bandaged head then to crawl on one’s belly, in order to be able to save one’s head.
Is it not enough to know the evil to shun it? If not, we should be sincere enough to admit that we love evil too well to give it up.
If co-operation is a duty, I hold that non-co-operation also under certain conditions is equally a duty.
Honestly, of all the civil rights figures you could have cited, Gandhi is the one who would tell you that non-cooperation with evil is more important than self-preservation. How on earth could you look at Gandhi and say; ‘he would want me to vote for the lesser evil’?
I thought we had worked this out earlier, talking about Bull Connor. I was all on board when I thought you were saying, let’s give Biden a hard time over Gaza. Now I’m a lot less sure what you’re saying.
Do you think working as a collaborator of the Raj, is more or less the same as voting for the clearly less-genocide-supporting of two arguably-genocide-supporting candidates?
Would this apply also to refusing to vote for Boutwell over Connor, or refusing to vote for the SDP (with all its colonial adventures in Africa and etc) over the NSDAP in prewar Germany?
I think u accidentally replied to the wrong comment, but im starting to really love seeing ur name come up. Very well informed on a period in time most of us only know so much.
No, he’s saying sticking with your principles is more important than even preventing your own harm. He pushed for change by being willing to sacrifice himself. He wasn’t just blindly non-violemt, he risked self injury to advance change
You keep fast-forwarding to voting day, but confidently standing your ground now is what moves the needle, not beating the drums of cooperation for Biden.
Yes, I know what Gandhi’s saying. I’m asking how you’d apply it to the present day, and you’re deflecting instead of answering.
You keep fast-forwarding to voting day
Oh sorry I must have replied to a message under the wrong meme or something; the one on my screen is different I guess.
(Edit: Also there’s this)
I keep asking you to clarify what you’re saying, and you treat it like it’s some sort of trick, and react with tactics instead of clarity. That’s a hallmark of propaganda. Just say what you mean, if you feel confident enough to stand your ground in it.
Gandhi worked with the lesser evil plenty to earn India’s independence. He negotiated with Britain on pacts and agreements that didn’t result in India’s freedom but generally gained them more autonomy and fairness. He even supported the British in WW2 and suspended independence efforts at the time.
If Gandhi said “okay hold up, let’s take care of the fascists alongside our colonizers”*, I think he would want you to vote for the lesser evil. I think we can infer from his actions that progressively achieving a goal through nonviolence is something he wholeheartedly supported.
*(Granted, he still advocated that Japan and the Nazis be defeated without significant violence)
And Douglass eventually worked with Lincoln, but not before ruthlessly criticizing him and supporting the dump-lincoln movement
Gandhi refused repeated offers from the British, he absolutely did not just accept their offer as given.
True, but the offers he did accept were not immediate independence for India. He knew when to take a good compromise and when to push for more. He continued to negotiate with the British while taking imperfect, but good deals.
Lol this is what gets me about the “get the guillotine” folks.
They think they’ll be the youth on the propaganda poster, waving the flag over the rubble of a conquered city, as if that’s realistic, or that it wouldn’t come with massive loss of life (not just in the capital class), lawlessness, and a huge power vacuum that will obviously be filled by an authoritarian (and likely a bigoted fascist).
People only seem to know the “guillotining the aristocracy” part, not the “reign of terror” part.
Or the bit about setting up systems of mutual aid so that our comrades arent killed by the dogs. Theyre here to cry against voting. Not to actually bring about a revolution and especially not keep each other alive in the event of one.
I’ve seen some people on lemmy when I first started lurking, try to claim that some of the most dystopian nations are really close to utopia and are actually trying really hard guys. I think many of them were those types of leftists.
Just get a load of the accounts that keep replying to the comments i leave. Theyre not good faith actors. Theyre paid trolls or bots. And theyve flooded this thread. This post was at 440 upvotes with 240 comments some hrs ago and as of now sits at 489 and 360 comments. That should hopefully strike one as unusual. Im willing to bet that in that time this thread was upvoted significantly more than 50 times. American leftists are being targeted to ensure we dont turn out in november.
Specifically America needs a revolution. There have been many revolutions around the world and its America that counteracts all of the wins for the people. If America had a revolution then finally we might be able to make some progress.
There’s no utopias because of America.
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I wish it was just edginess and not actual facts.
I wish my comment wasn’t removed by mods every time I call one of you people out.
All those armchair warriors that have a couple guns and say they’re ready for the revolution, but aren’t even participating in any activism besides edgelording on forums.
Sure you are, champ. Sure you are. Why don’t you instacart yourself some hot pockets and a gallon of ice cream.
If you aren’t part of at least three mutual aid groups providing mesh support in your tri-county area, I don’t wanna hear a goddamn thing about the revolution from you.
This comment reads like sarcasm, but unironically yeah. If you aren’t politically active already, you’re not going to suddenly gain the will to overthrow the government when Trump wins again.
For sure. If you want to break the chains of international capitalism, you better have a tested plan to replace those logistics networks for necessities.
I hope this doesn’t come across as insincere, but why is the tri-county part relevant? Is it just a convenient geographic grouping? Is it a metaphor?
Metaphor. I mean you should not only be supporting your own community, but involved in inter-community aid and organization if you are truly advocating for a revolution.
It blows my mind that we’re still discussing this after the German left took this approach with Hitler.
There is no “after fascists”. Fascists are the enemy that we unite against. Hitler wouldn’t have come into power if the leftists and moderates cooperated and had a healthy relationship. Even if some factions of the left/moderates want to play off fascists for power, there’s still plenty of people in the relevant group who dislike the fascists. Unite with them to take down the fascists and elements of their party who empower them.
We’ll get nowhere if we assume the entire group of leftists/moderates are fascist supporters. We need to ally.
The trolls ive spoken to here are afraid of leftist solidarity. They claim they want change, but whine and cry the second you call for all roads for change to be taken. Mutual aid, direct action, and voting are praxis. We will have an impossible time trying to get any of those first 2 done under dumbass.
As someone on the far end of the left spectrum, any and all leftward movement must be embraced at all opportunities. How am i to convince anyone to work together with me, if I shit on their methods? All must be embraced. Some will be more effective, some less, but thats how we make connections.
Its about time this country learned what solidarity is.
Very well spoken. Even if the progress is minor, it’s helping some people, and that’s important. Obamacare was not the ultimate, perfect healthcare fix, but it did give a whole lot of people affordable healthcare where they didn’t previously. It was a cause worth supporting for that reason. And as someone who had to rely on it for a time, I greatly appreciate it.
If we’ve made someone’s life better or easier, we’ve succeeded. That to me is practical leftism. We help as many as we can as much as we can. Since we aren’t in unilateral power, that means we have to compromise. And working with colleagues will be more successful than being combative. The lone socialist in the Virginia House was able to get a lot done that way.
Thats a part of practical leftism indeed! Did the legalize end even the legal persecution of LGBTQ folks? Not entirely, look at the south. But it did( force a cultural shift. Suddenly it wasnt so cool to use gay as an insult and shit on queer ppl who looked/dressed/sounded a certain way.
The LGBTQ ppl in my life have been afforded the ability to step out of the closet with less fear than before. If im to march with them, this imperfect solution is working towards my ends as well.
Solidarity, comrade, regardless where ur politics are. I want liberation even for the righty whities that profess to hate us.
I really hope the majority of leftists are like you. I’m slightly more right, as a progressive, but I hope the more combative leftists I see online are just the loud minority.
You seem like someone that I could have a fun debate with over a beer about where we differ, and you have my respect.
Thanks dude.
The combative ones seem like trolls to me. I left a comment elsewhere outlining it, but leftist spaces on reddit were once open minded and places for critical thinking, not circle jerking. Our wing is being coopted ths way the right was in 2016. Only reason i speak to the trolls is so for everyone else to see.
Lol are you really going for this “notlikeotherleftists” persona? Buddy there’s already a name for that. It’s “liberal”. You’re talking like one, acting like one and voting like one.
Never said any of that. In fact, given the fact that theres groups like the Spanish anarchists who participate in govt, what im going for is exactlyliketheotherleftists. Except u know, the actual ones who understand that building bridges is how u make anything happen.
Specifically Voting is the starting shot from which all other actions flow in an election cycle
Doing all the other parts is basically just aesthetic shopping if you won’t do the part that changes material conditions at the macro level
I… understand.
This is what i mean by solidarity, amigo.
I disagree, on a fundamental level, that is. Voting is, as far as im concerned, the least you can do…
Still doing it. Ill still discuss with u voting options and effecting change via the electoral method. I vote in any and all elections in which i am eligible. Right now, i dont give two shits about convincing u about direct action being more effective. If i waste my time on that, that takes time from both of us in which we could be doing something productive (like discussing with those who are more likely to be swayed why direct action is important). Much more productive use of my time with u would be discussing which candidates are most likely to make material conditions better for us all.
And above all of that, you are (more than likely, anyway) a working class comrade who is exploited for their surplus value the same way i am. Why would i want to get on ur bad side? I want change, and ur preferred method is proven, clearly. Its best for us all to foster good relationships with one another. Then, you have another reliable voter in me, and i can rest assured that by working together (in say, going after the less reliable voters) u and I are pushing our communities in the correct (read: left) direction.
I say again, solidarity, amigo!
That’s what I meant by starting shot, it’s the least you can do.
Aesthetic shopping at every other step without doing the first part is bailing water out of a ship without plugging the hole first, like yeah you can absolutely keep the water out but more is gonna keep coming in without doing that first step to try and stem the problem from getting even worse.
I just resent the people who skip the first step especially right now because to me it seems less like they’re even interested in bailing the water out and more like they’re interested in looking grammable while doing a shit job at bailing water out, which hilariously I see a lot of them projectingly accuse moderates of doing whenever there’s an argument about who gets to show up to pride.
IMO admittance to the marches and mutual aid events and conferences and stuff should be predicted on proving you voted, something like a BPT verification pic, something that is recognizably you, a date the pic was taken on, and the most recent “I voted sticker” for the place you voted in. Probably won’t get all the slacktivists but it’ll definitely filter out the karens who think demanding to speak to the party’s manager is ultra based praxis! XD
Solidarity l’enton sadi’i!
Haha!
Youve a way with words. Those first two paragraphs id love to stamp in highly visible public spaces, esp the second! Thats exactly how it feels, and then these numbskulls insist if u suggest voting ur a “lib,” as if the society i advocate hardest for isnt cashless, classless, stateless.
That last paragraph tho… i dont like the idea of holding any purity tests to begin with, but i do understand the sentiment. As ive seen some others on here say, if ur over here crying about ppl voting, chances are ur not going to be the one going out and actually participating in direct action, or esp mutual aid, in the first place.
l’enton sadi’i
Forgive my ignorance, but what language would this be, what does it translate to?
Shami dialect Arabic, it means “solidarity to you my friend!”
In MSA it’d have been written l’entum sadiqi.
I like to point to one of the most successful Socialist parties that ever existing in the USA: The Socialist Party of Milwaukee. They got 3 mayors elected and effected actual change.
Part of the Socialist Party’s lasting success in Milwaukee can also be attributed to their pragmatism, Gousha says. Daniel Hoan made a point to exist within a capitalist free market system, they were fiscally conservative, and they worked with other parties to accomplish their goals.
Their pragmatism drew criticism from other socialists around the country, who called Milwaukeeans “sewer socialists” for not being revolutionary enough, according to Gousha.
"As Gene Zeidler said, 'The socialists of Milwaukee took that as a badge of honor. And they said, well you may think we need to be more revolutionary but you could not be elected dog catcher and we’re winning elections,’ " Gousha notes.
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This is going to happen every election for the foreseeable future. Trump is not a illness he’s a symptom. Eventually a right winger is going to win because we’re stuck voting for a party that often ignores their constituents for business interests. That’s how we got Trump in the first place and the DNC learned nothing.
All the while we could vote third party like in most healthy democracies but we can’t because neither of the major parties want a third party and voters are to cowardly to vote 3rd party because “they won’t win anyway” even when they actually represent what they want in a on policy. See Nader and Bernie
Fact is neither Democrat or Republican is going to attempt to change s system that actively benefits them, especially in the higher positions of authority. The fact that voting 3rd party is considered throwing away your vote should be more embarrassing to Americans as a whole.
It’s not “considered” throwing your vote away. Under a FPTP voting system, it is throwing your vote away. Nobody who tells you that says it gleefully like we just love that we and you can’t vote third party effectively. It’s just the mathematical reality of our voting system and it has to be changed before voting third party becomes an option that is anything but symbolic and self-defeating.
The DNC is not the ephemereal vague boogeyman the left tries to make it out to be. It’s an organization focused on winning elections and accomplishing policies for the Democratic constituency. You are making the mistake of hating the player instead of the game.
If third party votes are important to you, join a local political group focused on expanding another voting choice method like Ranked Choice or STAR voting. You’re already on the easier half of the ideological spectrum to wage this fight from, since most sponsors of alternatives are from democratic groups.
The players decide the game rules.
I would say that the DNC learned that they can keep doing what they are doing and it will be okay. If they’re lucky, they get Obama. If they’re unlucky, they get Trump, and it’s easier to drum up support for Biden.
He’s both a symptom and an illness.
I think people who are young enough to not remember the world before Obama don’t realize this is so so so so so far from the norm that we don’t have any clue what’s going to happen.
Biden would have been a decent GOP candidate in the 90s. It’d have sucked to see him elected but it would have been a few years of uncomfortable conservative stuff. Where people argue about how much power we want to give to corporations or whatever… But now it’s so far past that…
Tell me which democrats before Trump’s term was “ignoring their constituents for business interests” - show your work, please. Because you sound like a bipartisan moron.
If you can’t understand how bad trump was and will be, you’re fucking removed. I agree that trump is a symptom but the disease is dumbasses that value social issues like abolishing trans rights and wanting to restore the ability to say the “hard R” without getting fired.
Biden (or his cabinet, whatever) has done so much good for this country that it fills me with a white hot rage that there’s still so much opposition to what is essentially the best presidency we’ve had in decades. You know what? I think you’re part of the problem. I think you don’t know the first thing when it comes to policies, legislation, bills, laws, economic incentives, budgets, etc. I think you think you’re just “looking at both sides, man”.
Sorry if that’s a bit harsh but you guys speak so confidently about issues you know nothing about. I’ll try to make it easier: if you’re a Democrat, vote Biden. If you’re not a Republican, vote Biden. If you don’t like Biden but hate Trump, then vote Biden. If you’re unsure (then you shouldn’t be allowed to have kids, honestly) vote Biden and thank me later. If you’re a Trump supporter I’ll pray for you but vote Trump. If you’re a Republican and don’t like Trump, I’m so sorry.
Don’t get so shocked when someone points out that the Washington establishment shares a lot of common values. I think we all know that intuitively, and yet here you are cussing people out because they pointed it out yet again.
You want some issues that show how Obama failed, how Biden has failed? Okay. Campaign finance reform, housing, strict anti-monopoly legislation, stopping wars.
The biggest thing in your rant that you got totally wrong is that you talked about both sides as if there are only two sides. In reality everyone has their own agenda, but if you get stuck in that trap where you think there’s only two people that you could possibly support it’s easy to forget that neither of them cares about most of the things that you hold dear.
I get the feeling that a lot of these people think that somehow withholding their vote to punish Biden is some kind of ultimate punishment and it allows them to feel superior without having to do anything else to actually contribute.
It gives them another 4 years of absolving themselves of any bad things that happen in the government. “Not my fault”
Same smug cowardice that libertarians love to preen over.
Its tactical. The right is in distress bc theyre so damn unpopular and their base is shrinking while the left is growing. So, for our enemies, its time to turn us against each other and convince us “voting bad.” Bc low turn out is the only way they win. And they say, “but itll keep happening,” except, it wont. Bc theyre in distress. Bc theres less and less boomers to vote for shit. So now, on the eve of tides turning, “wah! Itll always be this way! Give up, dont vote! The right will eventually win!”
Yeah. Tell people that voting for Biden is a vote for the removal of MAGA from politics.
I have yet to hear a convincing argument for why someone who says they won’t vote for Biden shouldn’t be actively voting for Trump.
They’re the same thing… Like, on every level.
Nah the shit im seeing is more thay theyre the same thing so either dont vote bc fuck the system (and get full blown dictatorship, which the amerikiddies have never actually felt or heard first hand about to distinguish from authoritarian-lite biden) or dont vote/vote third party to push biden and the democrats left (which wont work in trump’s murica where the slightest political deviation will be criminalized). Or they want fascism to speed along the revolution they claim to want. Bc thats going great in russia -___-
I think genocide is bad and that Build Back Better was always going to be killed by the Democratic Party from the very start
He is a C+ president at absolute best.
Which makes him the best president since LBJ
Which means we need to dispose of our current political and civic order and replace it with a better model.
Even something like Finland would be a drastic improve
The foreseeable future looks like the rightwingers are outnumbered. Keep democracy alive, and you will live to see very different candidates running than the dinosaurs your used to. Theres more than a couple reasons why the 2 front runners are do old.
Already had a tankie tell me they’re voting 3rd party.
Putin thanks them while Ukrainians and Palestinians weep.
Don’t worry, tankies love Russia’s Legitimate Security Interests in performing genocide in Ukraine.
One literally hopped on a sock-puppet account immediately after I reported their other account for spam (several replies to each comment) and blocking his account and just continued with the same nonsense.
Commie! They’re kind of adorable, how they think their extraordinarily unique commenting style can be obfuscated by switching usernames and instances. I’ve never seen someone try so hard to have the worst possible takes on everything
Lmao they downvoted this with both of their accounts
haha I’m glad I’m not the only one who recognized Commie doing this.
I bet I know exactly who that is.
i’m not a tankie and i never told you i’m voting for a so-called third party (though i am)
We know. We can smell your bad faith arguments a mile away.
your accusation of bad faith is, itself, bad faith
Yoink thanks
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Sweet jesus i love it
“Anyone who disagrees with me is a tankie.” The left loves their cringe labels as much as the extreme right. Tankies, fascists, nazis, demon rats, librules, alt right, control left, it’s all the same nonsense. You morons deserve each other.
I’ll take strawman for 500, Alex.
… Or, you know, they just told me they were, ya genius.
don’t lie
It’s not that they are ok with Trump. They are just unhappy with both candidates. With that being said I do plan on voting for the Biden because while I don’t agree with him on everything I know that he won’t turn the country into a fascist dictatorship like Trump. The fact that this asshole is still legally allowed to run is insane.
Please, for the love of god, be good enough to vote for.
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If Trump wins he’ll continue to support genocide even harder in Gaza since he’s a Christian death cultist
Yeah, that’s the crazy part. I get the voting undecided or whatever your state’s equivalent is in order to send a message to Biden that he needs to change his policies (I’ll be doing this as well when it’s my state’s turn). However, Trump and the right are very openly pro Israel and if anything support Israel even more.
Not to mention that if Trump is back in power he’ll also be supporting the genocide in Ukraine.
And russia has repeatedly said Ukraine is a stepping stone in the “denazification” of Eastern Europe.
But do go on about how “both parties are the same.” If you don’t vote for Biden you’ll likely never be able to cast a vote again.
this hyperbole only serves to reinforce this hard line between american liberals and leftists; consider reevaluating what is influencing your thought process.
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That “plan” literally changes every year and there have been presidents more closely related to evangelical and supremacist groups in the past and the plan continues to update each year.
Ask yourself how did you come to know if it’s existence? Was it social media? Did they want you to know about it? We’re you likewise engaged about it whatever it was called back in 2004?
It’s not at all hyperbole. Survivors of the holocaust during Trump’s first term specifically brought up how eerie and terrifying was the similarity with what they lived through during the early years, in the long run-up to the full Nazi takeover.
Biden and the neoliberals represent everything that gave rise to the material conditions that spawned the growth of Nazi Germany
Neoliberalism will continue to spawn fascism until we do away with it. Unfortunately our oligarchs will not prevent that. Which means that fascism is an inevitability in the United States - if not in 2024 then shortly thereafter
Incrementalism and neoliberalism will kill us, and there’s nothing we can do to stop it
You know a socialist came within like 20 feet of the Democratic nomination in 2016 and probably would have won the general, right
A lot of people trying to organize to improve their situation in much harder conditions would call you a coward and quitter for just throwing your hands up in this absolutely abject surrender. You’re still free, you can speak your mind on Lemmy, you can vote or organize. That’s already like 5 big steps up. Just whining about it like “boo hoo all the neoliberals in power won’t just hand it over to me even though I asked them to” is some fuckin weak sauce.
I actually don’t agree that Biden’s economic policies are of a piece with all the neoliberal Democratic-party bullshit that’s been on offer ever since Reagan took down Jimmy Carter’s solar panels. But that’s neither here nor there; the main point is your rampant defeatism is a bunch of conveniently-means-I-don’t-have-to-do-anything crap.
Bernie is a social democrat. If he’s socialist then Scandinavia is socialist. And Scandinavia is obviously not socialist
boo hoo all the neoliberals in power won’t just hand it over to me even though I asked them to" is some fuckin weak sauce.
They wouldn’t hand it over even if there was full blown revolution with nationwide riots and murders. Nor should they - they have far more power than the people, and our military and police are indoctrinated and impossibly heavily armed
I agree that Biden is the best president since LBJ. Gazans might not agree with that evaluation. But I probably do.
Freedom of speech is an illusion that is rapidly shrinking under our current society. It is at best effectless, and at worst a means for the government to engage in gathering intelligence and surveilling certain individuals to build files for future retaliation
Did you ever stop to wonder why it’s up to leftists and liberals to come together to stop it instead of the checks and balances that our system is supposed to have?
Who made you agree that it’s up to the leftists where the checks and balances are supposed to do the job?
We got here by voting for the lesser evil every single time and we’ll be here again unless everyone begins to ask themselves questions like this.
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If both parties are the same on Israel, then look for other differences to vote for.
Eh, that’s not exactly how that works. There are single issue voters. If neither side appeals to them they will likely either not vote or seek a third party candidate. That is why the Green party had any sort of relevance until the Dems started really taking climate issues more seriously with things like “the green new deal”.
That is exactly how your system works. It’s a 2 party system in practice. So you might as well work with what you got. It definitely needs an overhaul though. I’m glad all votes matter where I am from.
Those folks just don’t understand game theory.
Both parties are the same on this one issue
well then think of other differences besides that issue
WhY wOuLd YoU sAy ThAt
That’s not at all what I said. There are people who are strictly single issue because that one issue matters more to them than anything else. Telling them to look at other issues doesn’t solve their problem. They’re more likely to look at other candidates.
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Yikes
Edit I’m bummed mods removed user buzz’s comment. They are a bigot and that should be reflected in the public record (not just the federated modlog.) Or, they should be banned.
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U buzz?
Leftists who won’t vote are saying:
“Making a political statement is worth not only having Trump for president for the next four years, but living under a Trump for the rest of my life or fighting another world war to escape it.”
“I’m so mad at the current president for doing genocide that I’m going to stand down and tacitly support his other opponent to do genocide instead.”
Please vote. I don’t live in the US but this election is likely to impact the safety of my family.
Whether you blame Biden and the DNC, or the “left” voters for not voting hard enough; if Trump wins, it won’t matter. Get over yourself and try to build allies instead of destroying support.
this should be the biggest takeaway from this election cycle and it saddens me to see that american liberals drink as much coolaid as maga and that they’re become more prevalent in the fediverse.
Anarchists hate tankies. Tankies hate liberals. Liberals hate anarchists. Meanwhile, Trump, fascism, and Project 2025 is on the horizon. Reach across the divide. When the fascists come for you, are you really gonna ask if the people willing to fight with you are Leninists, Trotskyist, or social Democrats?
We can criticize ideals, but at the end of the day, we’re all fighting fascism.
This is the same common wisdom that says liberals and socialist can’t get along; but there’s plenty to say otherwise.
My desire is to not enable fascim from any direction; both conservative and liberal varieties alike.
It’s not Kool aid, it’s an understanding of reality. There’s no chance of running a third party or another democrat in this month of this year in this election .
Your only choice is to either vote Biden, and try to convince him to change policy, or do any other action and be fine with trump, who will never be convinced of anything, will happily build an actual Christian nation-state and is likely compromised by foreign actors .
After the election, hoping Biden wins, is the time for leftists to wake up and build a candidate. If trump wins they may never get the chance due to project 2025.
It’s like this:
The floor is covered in broken glass. You must cross it to get out.
You are wearing very uncomfortable high heel shoes.
You can either remove the uncomfortable shoes and walk in the broken glass, taking massive damage. Your feet will never be the same.
Or you can wear the uncomfortable shoes, safely cross the room, and then stop once you are out, and either remove the shoes and find new ones.
Your only choice is to either vote Biden, and try to convince him to change policy, or do any other action and be fine with trump
i am not fine with biden or trump.
That’s fine, but you are in a game. You have 2 choices. Your actions influence ONLY the possible success of one of those two names.
i’m going to be voting for cornel west or jill stein (or de la cruz if someone can convince me). but i won’t be voting for fascists.
And depending on your county/state, your vote will do nothing, or help trump. Enjoy.
my vote will add one to the vote total of the candidate for whom i vote. unless that person is trump (it won’t be), then i am voting against trump.
Another non-voting/third party stan cosplaying as a leftist.
If im to take ur comic in good faith, ill make like the Spanish anarchists and still participate in the god awful system that we’re all apart of either way to reduce the harm it does to me or my comrades. Surely you will recognize that as praxis.
What does hate achieve?
Men build too many walls and not enough bridges.
Joseph Fort Newton
I like this one! In your honor, and i suppose JF Newton’s, ill paste what i wrote elsewhere as i see it as pertinent.
Youve offered no concrete ways forward, however, so Ill say for the millionth time the same: pursue direct action in any means by which u are able, establish systems of mutual aid (preferably very local), vote bc its the least u can do and your wellbeing does depend on it, and make friends and spread these ideas anywhere and everywhere. The future is ours, but we shouldnt sit here arguing against ppl encouraging any single one of those avenues. Theyre all necessary. Everyone does a little, some do a lot. “From each according to his ability,” and what not.
Weve argued time and time again. If u are a good faith actor, there is nothing here that u should disagree with. All avenues must be taken, none should be disparaged. Everyone does what they can, but some do a little more. Those that do more get honor and respect from the rest, as is deserved, but the rest get neither honor, nor dishonor, but they still receive respect as ur comrades.
Brav-fucking-O. 100% this. I get comments removed for saying exactly this in other communities, but it’s 100% accurate from what I see.
But both sides
Yes my butt is symmetrical with buttcheeks on both aides.
#ButtBothSides
There are those that see things drifting away from their priorities and their wants and needs. They’ve tried working within the system, but the system always makes things worse. Of course people like that will be tempted to “burn it all down” and start anew, or at least throw a wrench in the cogs and stop progress.
We should focus on convincing them that ‘progress’ is better for them - and if it isn’t, maybe we shouldn’t support it as well. Unless it is an issue of justice, then of course not letting people ‘get away with it’ is worse for those people.
I’m childish enough that I’m irritated at my comment here being removed. Here’s the comment, which also applies to this meme:
You know that weak support for Hindenburg’s party was what let Hitler come to power, right?
Not that I agree that Biden is a lesser evil, but even within those parameters, there’s an absolutely glaring flaw in bringing up Nazi Germany while making the case that voting for the lesser evil is a bad idea
And when he asked for clarification:
My point is that the holocaust that gave rise to Niemöller’s quote in the first place happened because of weakened resistance from the SPD (the establishment left), which wasn’t getting support from the far-left of its day because it wasn’t left enough. When as a result the fascist party gained control, it put all the far-left people in camps, outlawed the SPD, and began killing people by the millions. Which in retrospect made the complaint that the establishment left wasn’t left enough to support, even against literal Hitler, seem short sighted.
Mod banned me. 🙂
I got banned from World News (apparently the .ml instance) for calling out russian talking points being used for this end.
Its not just calls for not voting, either. The other they love to stan is voting third party and pretending the spoiler effect doesnt exist.
A lot of the lemmy.ml subs are very explicitly one-viewpoint subs; the mods will take out comments which advance arguments they don’t like. It is a reason I don’t bother with them much.
I mean, it makes sense; the administrators argue for explicitly totalitarian states like Russia or China, so it makes sense they’d use the same sort of approach to discourse under their own purview. I am curious what their viewpoint would be if their local government showed up at their door and started treating them like Russia or China treat their social media; I think there’s a certain pick-me viewpoint like “obviously I would be one of the good and loyal ones and they’d leave me alone,” but I don’t think that is how it would work out.
Preach, comrade, preach.
All this gives actual leftist thought a bad name.
I want a fucking classless, cashless, stateless society. You cant get further away from that than china and russia, and u will certainly get further away if the man in the oval office works for one of the two.
Like it or not, neoliberal politics arent just going to go away worldwide, and being ignorant of the geopolitical consequences of our elections doesnt mean that ur somehow a magical snowflake that enilightened everyone by “not endorsing” a candidate by refusing to fill in a box next the name thats not trying to sell the country youre a part of, whether u like it or not, away.
It’s all related to storytelling, I think.
We love the underdog who was beaten so badly that they finally bit back, and won.
But generally that’s not how reality works. Most revolutions are preceded by a weakening of the authoritarian systems which were then overthrown, not an intensification of their repressive efficiency.
It’s tempting for many, thus, to look at a worsening situation and feel optimistic about it - “If things just get a little worse, then EVERYONE will finally have enough!” But as North Korea shows, there’s not much of a bottom to the level of suffering humans are willing to endure. The correct move is to support the candidates which inflict the least harm and most enable independent organization for more radical change.
Regardless of whether you believe in reform or revolution, making things worse is not the path there.
Exactly. i remember trying to make this point to tankies on lemmy sometime ago. Does the DPRK, china, russia, saudi arabia seem closer to revolution than us? Really? Bc our comrades in revolution or otherwise are going to be the most oppressed in society who stand to lose the most from a falling apart of the existing sociopolitical order.
All leftists should be united in furthering the aims of solidarity, weakening of hierarchy, and redistribution of wealth. Why should I, as someone who wants a cashless society, stand opposed to a decrease in wealth inequality? Why should I stand opposed to any amount of upward mobility from the downtrodden (read: the 99.99% of us)? I want justice and equity. Im not going to be upset when a coworker gets a raise, I will argue that not only do the rest of us deserve one to, but we all, including the first coworker, deserve more! Anything to even the playing field, doubly so if it recruits my peers to our side.
Enjoying reading ur takes, btw, on the whole.
Thanks. Sometimes I don’t feel ‘left’ enough, but ultimately, my sympathies are with those who want something better than this fucking hellworld. I just don’t want to splatter our metaphorical brains all over the walls in the process and hand power back to even shittier oppressors.
Lifes weird. I was having a great convo on this topic the other day with an anarchist (an actual one, that is). Im not an anarchist, i dont think, but i cant help it if i think much of their means are worth pursuing and working with. Their willingness to envision a utopia is radical an necessary, and the utopia they envision is close to what i imagine.
So in short, im “somehwhere” (gestures vaguely) off on the far left deep end, but i dont really care to narrow it down as much as pursue more of those means which i think benefit us all.
At the same time, this is fucking murica. We diverse. I work with all sorts of ppl that i get on with, and my overall goal in this world is to push everyone i can leftward somehow. Will they end up as far left as me? Lol, not answering that. But ive gotten righties to admit that insurance companies should he done away with, that single payer healthcare is the way, and even that trans folk just want to be left alone and, under single payer, deserve their healthcare needs (hormones, surgery, etc.) taken care of just as much as “we” (sorry, work is cisnormative) need ours. Its about reframing the issues so ppl see that we (all us poors) have a single common enemy that is never any of the ppl walking among us.
Youre not left enough? Cool, so u acknowledge it (/s :p). Honestly, it seems we agree on plenty, and ur on the same side when it comes to the election bs we’re putting up with. Cool, clearly, to me, that means we have mutual goals we can work together on and not impede each others progress on. If in the future we disagree, we will have already fostered the ability to talk to each other in friendly non combative terms and can bridge those gaps then.
If u dont believe in a classless, cashless, stateless society the way I do and I put u down as not left enough or as a lib, how can i hope to achieve that end? i propose instead mutual aid. Ill work with u so Status Quo Joe wins his stupid election that threatens us all, and after thats done, we can discuss what next movements need be done. Will it be convincing u of my ends then? Prolly not. But i can bet that youd likely be down for supporting candidates that want election reform and introduce (i.e.) ranked choice voting, and i think youd agree that that would take both of us closer to the ends we each seek- just like the actual anarchists and myself.
Solidarity, comrade. Solidarity.
Lmao. LinkOpensChest.wav is constantly going on about how mods are persecuting him. How ironic.
The rule that I was banned under was:
- No defending oppressive systems such as capitalism or the US “democracy.”
I can’t even tell whether to complain that it’s weird to tell me I can’t defend democracy, or that it’s weird to call “it’s bad to let the Nazis come to power” a pro-system-of-oppression viewpoint.
(I mean, I get it. I think it’s safe to say that the real reason for the ban is neither of those things. I’m gonna let it go and move on with my day.)
“Not supporting the rise of Hitler is literally fascism. After Hitler, our turn!”
Support for the SPD waned because they were pushing to the right to court right wing voters. Sort of like how the sitting US president has been on TV using right wing terminology and how the sitting Democratic mayor in NYC brought back stop and frisk.
@FenrirIII god doesnt exist. for the love of Humanity, VOTE!
