I get that you say that it’s fuzzy with ideologies, but certainly, you must see how it’s easier to define economic structures by their mechanisms, and not their goals, right?
Wouldn’t “owning the means of production” be a goal, rather than a mechanism?
Social democracy for example still believes in workers owning the means of production, but with a degree of gradualism that most Leftists find icky.
Depends on what you’re talking about, I suppose. Are you including strategy in the definition of the structure?
I think, for example, Socialism is the structure, being Worker Ownership of the Means of Production. Different Socialist tendencies, such as Marxism, Anarchism, Syndicalism, and so forth, seek to establish this structure in different ways and means, and thus have their own structures and ways of achieving them.
I would, therefore, not classify Socialism as an ideology, but a structure, and Marxism, Anarchism, Syndicalism, and so forth, as ideologies.
Social Democracy is a bit unique, in that for many Social Democrats, Socialism (the structure) is largely off the table, at large! Social Democracy is what I would consider to be a truly centrist position - it combines state-run and owned industries like railways and oil production with Capitalism as the dominant mode of production.
In my view, Left and Right are largely useless terms, and as such should be used to refer to whether or not an ideology or structure is revolutionary or reactionary in terms of the underlying structure, so because global Capitalism is the dominant structure, Capitalist ideologies are right of center while Socialist ideologies are left of center. This fits with the French origins as well, back when Liberalism was revolutionary against Monarchism.
I’m curious why you consider Neoliberalism to be left of center, rather than right of center. Are you referring to the Overton Window, a vibe, or what? What do you consider to be “Socialism” itself?
Bro, you put more thought into your first comment than this dumb motherfucker has generated in their entire life. You can argue with a pigeon about epistemology, but that doesn’t mean you should.
You don’t even know how to say “epistemology”, much less what it means. Pick your knuckles off the ground before you comment on other people’s intelligence.
Theocracy and laissez-faire capitalism would be right of center. You know, the dominant ideology of Republicans? If you’ve forgotten they exist for a moment, this may be a good time to check your own echo chamber. They very may well be in power next year.
Slight tangent: Leftists tend to retreat so far into their own safe spaces that they forget a solid 30% of the US is farther right than the farthest right person they’ve ever met. Nazism is not hyperbole, it’s a legitimate belief that is ascendant right now.
I think, for example, Socialism is the structure, being Worker Ownership of the Means of Production. Different Socialist tendencies, such as Marxism, Anarchism, Syndicalism, and so forth, seek to establish this structure in different ways and means, and thus have their own structures and ways of achieving them.
Under its definition, social democracy would also be socialism, since owning the means of production is the eventual goal. Unlike most other ideologies, it attempts to reach that goal with as little disruption of the capitalist framework as possible. Thus I would call social democracy the most centrist of the socialist ideologies, though I would say all socialist ideologies are left of center (see above).
It’s also important to note that this is within a Western framework, not exclusively US or European. One issue I think with discussions like this is Americans will say that social democracy is on the Far Left (which is true…in America) and Europeans will say it’s centrist or perhaps right of center (which is true…in (western) Europe). If your framework is the Middle East, then the idea of social security is radically left wing.
I also think it’s important to note that Socialism is not a purely economic structure. There are strong social elements as well. Socialists don’t want to own the means of production for the funsies. Socialism goes hand in hand with a strong social safety net, worker protections, environmental protections, etc…generally, the good of the many over the good of the few. When we talk about the difference between different flavors of leftism, it’s easy to compare the economics alone. But especially in contrast with centrist and right wing ideologies, the differences in societal goals is stark.
But what are you using to determine left and right? You still haven’t given that, it’s still just vibes. You haven’t shown why you believe it’s better to consider Neoliberalism, a Capitalist ideology, as left of center.
The unnecessary cheap shot at leftists was also unsubstantiated. Antifascism is dominated by the far-left.
I think you’re also giving Social Democracy too much credit, in that people in the Nordics do not consider it to be Socialist, and many don’t have Socialism as their goal. Reading Reform or Revolution might do you well.
Then you speak on the Overton Window, which is probably what you’re using to determine left/right. I pretty firmly disagree with using that when discussing what ideologies are left and right, as that changes all the time.
The final bit is that you assume all Socialists want Socialism for other safety nets, which isn’t necessarily true either. Market Socialists, Libertarian Socialists, and Anarchists may not want any social safety nets, and they would still be Socialist.
I pretty firmly disagree with using that when discussing what ideologies are left and right, as that changes all the time.
I think this is the root of our issue. Ideologies do change over time, and across societies and geographies. What is left of center in the US is right of center in other countries, and what’s right of center in the US is left of center in other countries.
I have left wing politics in the context of the US. They may be right of center in other countries. But in the US, what most lemmings would consider as “leftism” is such a vanishingly small group they don’t even make an impact nationally.
So I suppose it is just vibes-based. Would you not rather anchor your descriptor to a fixed, uncontestable point easily understood? Considering we are on Lemmy, Leftism is the status quo, Liberalism is almost as numerous, and fascism is vanishingly small in the grand scheme of Lemmy. You would be in the right of the Overton Window here, would you not?
Therefore, it is better in my opinion to ditch the Overton Window and describe positions by where they stand in relation to Socialism and Capitalism.
I don’t know if you could say “easily understood”. “Liberal” and “socialist” have very different meanings depending on whether you’re speaking to a US audience or a European audience. That’s not my definitions, that’s just the common usage.
Wouldn’t “owning the means of production” be a goal, rather than a mechanism?
Social democracy for example still believes in workers owning the means of production, but with a degree of gradualism that most Leftists find icky.
Depends on what you’re talking about, I suppose. Are you including strategy in the definition of the structure?
I think, for example, Socialism is the structure, being Worker Ownership of the Means of Production. Different Socialist tendencies, such as Marxism, Anarchism, Syndicalism, and so forth, seek to establish this structure in different ways and means, and thus have their own structures and ways of achieving them.
I would, therefore, not classify Socialism as an ideology, but a structure, and Marxism, Anarchism, Syndicalism, and so forth, as ideologies.
Social Democracy is a bit unique, in that for many Social Democrats, Socialism (the structure) is largely off the table, at large! Social Democracy is what I would consider to be a truly centrist position - it combines state-run and owned industries like railways and oil production with Capitalism as the dominant mode of production.
In my view, Left and Right are largely useless terms, and as such should be used to refer to whether or not an ideology or structure is revolutionary or reactionary in terms of the underlying structure, so because global Capitalism is the dominant structure, Capitalist ideologies are right of center while Socialist ideologies are left of center. This fits with the French origins as well, back when Liberalism was revolutionary against Monarchism.
I’m curious why you consider Neoliberalism to be left of center, rather than right of center. Are you referring to the Overton Window, a vibe, or what? What do you consider to be “Socialism” itself?
Bro, you put more thought into your first comment than this dumb motherfucker has generated in their entire life. You can argue with a pigeon about epistemology, but that doesn’t mean you should.
You don’t even know how to say “epistemology”, much less what it means. Pick your knuckles off the ground before you comment on other people’s intelligence.
🐦
Theocracy and laissez-faire capitalism would be right of center. You know, the dominant ideology of Republicans? If you’ve forgotten they exist for a moment, this may be a good time to check your own echo chamber. They very may well be in power next year.
Slight tangent: Leftists tend to retreat so far into their own safe spaces that they forget a solid 30% of the US is farther right than the farthest right person they’ve ever met. Nazism is not hyperbole, it’s a legitimate belief that is ascendant right now.
Under its definition, social democracy would also be socialism, since owning the means of production is the eventual goal. Unlike most other ideologies, it attempts to reach that goal with as little disruption of the capitalist framework as possible. Thus I would call social democracy the most centrist of the socialist ideologies, though I would say all socialist ideologies are left of center (see above).
It’s also important to note that this is within a Western framework, not exclusively US or European. One issue I think with discussions like this is Americans will say that social democracy is on the Far Left (which is true…in America) and Europeans will say it’s centrist or perhaps right of center (which is true…in (western) Europe). If your framework is the Middle East, then the idea of social security is radically left wing.
I also think it’s important to note that Socialism is not a purely economic structure. There are strong social elements as well. Socialists don’t want to own the means of production for the funsies. Socialism goes hand in hand with a strong social safety net, worker protections, environmental protections, etc…generally, the good of the many over the good of the few. When we talk about the difference between different flavors of leftism, it’s easy to compare the economics alone. But especially in contrast with centrist and right wing ideologies, the differences in societal goals is stark.
But what are you using to determine left and right? You still haven’t given that, it’s still just vibes. You haven’t shown why you believe it’s better to consider Neoliberalism, a Capitalist ideology, as left of center.
The unnecessary cheap shot at leftists was also unsubstantiated. Antifascism is dominated by the far-left.
I think you’re also giving Social Democracy too much credit, in that people in the Nordics do not consider it to be Socialist, and many don’t have Socialism as their goal. Reading Reform or Revolution might do you well.
Then you speak on the Overton Window, which is probably what you’re using to determine left/right. I pretty firmly disagree with using that when discussing what ideologies are left and right, as that changes all the time.
The final bit is that you assume all Socialists want Socialism for other safety nets, which isn’t necessarily true either. Market Socialists, Libertarian Socialists, and Anarchists may not want any social safety nets, and they would still be Socialist.
Sorry, got banned and let the conversation lapse.
I think this is the root of our issue. Ideologies do change over time, and across societies and geographies. What is left of center in the US is right of center in other countries, and what’s right of center in the US is left of center in other countries.
I have left wing politics in the context of the US. They may be right of center in other countries. But in the US, what most lemmings would consider as “leftism” is such a vanishingly small group they don’t even make an impact nationally.
So I suppose it is just vibes-based. Would you not rather anchor your descriptor to a fixed, uncontestable point easily understood? Considering we are on Lemmy, Leftism is the status quo, Liberalism is almost as numerous, and fascism is vanishingly small in the grand scheme of Lemmy. You would be in the right of the Overton Window here, would you not?
Therefore, it is better in my opinion to ditch the Overton Window and describe positions by where they stand in relation to Socialism and Capitalism.
I don’t know if you could say “easily understood”. “Liberal” and “socialist” have very different meanings depending on whether you’re speaking to a US audience or a European audience. That’s not my definitions, that’s just the common usage.