But what are you using to determine left and right? You still haven’t given that, it’s still just vibes. You haven’t shown why you believe it’s better to consider Neoliberalism, a Capitalist ideology, as left of center.
The unnecessary cheap shot at leftists was also unsubstantiated. Antifascism is dominated by the far-left.
I think you’re also giving Social Democracy too much credit, in that people in the Nordics do not consider it to be Socialist, and many don’t have Socialism as their goal. Reading Reform or Revolution might do you well.
Then you speak on the Overton Window, which is probably what you’re using to determine left/right. I pretty firmly disagree with using that when discussing what ideologies are left and right, as that changes all the time.
The final bit is that you assume all Socialists want Socialism for other safety nets, which isn’t necessarily true either. Market Socialists, Libertarian Socialists, and Anarchists may not want any social safety nets, and they would still be Socialist.
I pretty firmly disagree with using that when discussing what ideologies are left and right, as that changes all the time.
I think this is the root of our issue. Ideologies do change over time, and across societies and geographies. What is left of center in the US is right of center in other countries, and what’s right of center in the US is left of center in other countries.
I have left wing politics in the context of the US. They may be right of center in other countries. But in the US, what most lemmings would consider as “leftism” is such a vanishingly small group they don’t even make an impact nationally.
So I suppose it is just vibes-based. Would you not rather anchor your descriptor to a fixed, uncontestable point easily understood? Considering we are on Lemmy, Leftism is the status quo, Liberalism is almost as numerous, and fascism is vanishingly small in the grand scheme of Lemmy. You would be in the right of the Overton Window here, would you not?
Therefore, it is better in my opinion to ditch the Overton Window and describe positions by where they stand in relation to Socialism and Capitalism.
I don’t know if you could say “easily understood”. “Liberal” and “socialist” have very different meanings depending on whether you’re speaking to a US audience or a European audience. That’s not my definitions, that’s just the common usage.
But what are you using to determine left and right? You still haven’t given that, it’s still just vibes. You haven’t shown why you believe it’s better to consider Neoliberalism, a Capitalist ideology, as left of center.
The unnecessary cheap shot at leftists was also unsubstantiated. Antifascism is dominated by the far-left.
I think you’re also giving Social Democracy too much credit, in that people in the Nordics do not consider it to be Socialist, and many don’t have Socialism as their goal. Reading Reform or Revolution might do you well.
Then you speak on the Overton Window, which is probably what you’re using to determine left/right. I pretty firmly disagree with using that when discussing what ideologies are left and right, as that changes all the time.
The final bit is that you assume all Socialists want Socialism for other safety nets, which isn’t necessarily true either. Market Socialists, Libertarian Socialists, and Anarchists may not want any social safety nets, and they would still be Socialist.
Sorry, got banned and let the conversation lapse.
I think this is the root of our issue. Ideologies do change over time, and across societies and geographies. What is left of center in the US is right of center in other countries, and what’s right of center in the US is left of center in other countries.
I have left wing politics in the context of the US. They may be right of center in other countries. But in the US, what most lemmings would consider as “leftism” is such a vanishingly small group they don’t even make an impact nationally.
So I suppose it is just vibes-based. Would you not rather anchor your descriptor to a fixed, uncontestable point easily understood? Considering we are on Lemmy, Leftism is the status quo, Liberalism is almost as numerous, and fascism is vanishingly small in the grand scheme of Lemmy. You would be in the right of the Overton Window here, would you not?
Therefore, it is better in my opinion to ditch the Overton Window and describe positions by where they stand in relation to Socialism and Capitalism.
I don’t know if you could say “easily understood”. “Liberal” and “socialist” have very different meanings depending on whether you’re speaking to a US audience or a European audience. That’s not my definitions, that’s just the common usage.