American political ideology as a whole has shifted left in recent years, but women are becoming even more liberal, according to Gallup.
The survey data, released Wednesday, shows that while the country remains largely center-right, the percentage of those identifying as or leaning liberal has increased over the past three decades, and is now just 1 percent under it’s all-time high.
Roughly 36 percent of adults identify as conservative, 25 percent as liberal and the rest identify as either moderate or unsure, according to the poll.
When broken down by gender ideology, women in the youngest and oldest age groups said they were more likely to identify as liberal.
Women ages 18-29 were 40 percent more likely to be liberal in 2023, a slight decrease from 41 percent in 2022 and 44 percent in 2020, but still higher than the 30 percent in 2013. Those ages 65 and older were 25 percent more likely to identify as liberal — a slight increase from the 21 percent reported in 2013.
Weird, it’s almost like electing the pussy grabber in chief turned women off from the Republican party. Strange how that happened. There’s also the whole Roe vs. Wade thing literally killing women.
Roe versus Wade is not literally killing women. Hyperbole of the century.
Yeah, and what do you call a high risk pregnancy that would normally have ended in abortion? Now women are forced to carry the pregnancy (viable or otherwise) to term putting their health and lives at risk.
Educate yourself on what’s going on before spouting nonsense.
But that’s LACK of Roe v Wade! Checkmate or something, lib!
There should be exceptions for when the mother’s health is at risk.
Except there isn’t, therefore, the repeal of Roe v Wade is, literally, killing women.
There are in many states.
And yet, doctors are still concerned because shit is too vague, so they just… don’t do them for any reason.
That’s on the doctors and I think it’s political in nature rather than as you described. I’m skeptical that this actually happens frequently.
That’s fine, but the facts don’t really care about your feelings.
It’s almost like this was a healthcare decision. That should have been left between doctors and their patients. Not a bunch of balding fascists.
I’m sorry but that’s in no way an objective source. On this particular social issue, that’s like citing Fox News. I’ll take some local news website or something that lists that sources or best of all the scientific study on the reluctance of doctors to perform abortions.
But I will not accept an NPR editorial on abortion as evidence.
Also that slogan is not as pithy as you think. Lol. Kind of makes you sound like a wine mom.
So you want to legislate but don’t want any responsibility for your legislation? Why would anybody give a shit about what you think?
It is happening constantly. These laws don’t define what they mean when they say the mother’s life is at risk, so doctors wait until women are on death’s doorstep because otherwise they can be charged with a crime.
Pro-lifers don’t actually think about the consequences of their vague ass laws. Women ARE dying because of the repeal of RvW and it isn’t their fault, or the doctors’, it’s the climate of fear that was intentionally created by the extremists who support this bullshit.
Sure you waved your fingers so it magically happened so. Fuck reality right?
One in 3,000 women die from pregnancy or birth complications in the US each year.
Making women remain pregnant inevitably causes deaths.
There should be exceptions for genuine medical life-threatening reasons for abortion. But that represents less than 1% of all abortions.
They’re separate arguments from your original claim that RvW is not life threatening.
And while risk of death is fortunately relatively low in the US, it’s only one of the many negative consequences of the repeal.
Many women survive the birth only to be inflicted with any one of a range of physical medical issues, including life long disability and chronic pain.
There’s also deep mental issues that arise.
Likewise, there are the potential negative health concerns for the baby to consider.
On top of that, there’s all the many socio-economic problems.
I’m not saying there are easy answers to all this, but I’m not minimizing the issues either.
Econgrad’s goalpost shifting is shameless.
Because it’s not. It’s extremist state governments that are doing that not the repeal of Roe versus Wade. I attacked the statement because it is a ridiculous statement. The repeal of Roe vs Wade is not killing women.
It’s not like roe versus Wade automatically equals total abortion bans.
Most pro-life people accept and support exceptions like rape, incest or when the mother’s health is at risk. It’s only a small minority of pro-life people that don’t believe there should ever be any exceptions. You’re literally arguing against a straw man.
It doesn’t matter what the majority wants in regards to your claim of no deaths. That’s just unfullfilled hopes and wishes.
We’re talking about the reality right now. And the reality is that the repeal has directly given the “extremists” the power to cause more maternal deaths, as you just acknowledged.
Again, you’re talking about different issues.
Pro-life itself is anti-freedom. I think pro-lifers should be denied representation in government. If you have a problem with that then you’re just hypocritical. Its the same as not allowing women to have determination over their own bodies.
I actually think you shouldn’t be allowed to vote; Just like you think women can’t make determinations about their own bodies and somehow you have more care and wisdom than licensed doctors.
If you have a problem with that you’re a hypocrite.
A friend of mine was hospitalized due to a pregnancy complication. Fortunately we live in a state where abortion is still legal so they were able to perform an emergency abortion and save her life. She was still hospitalized for a week. If we lived in one of several states where it’s not legal she would have died, no question. The doctor literally told her so. So no, it’s not hyperbole, it has happened, is happening, and will continue to happen as long as abortions are illegal.
There should always be exceptions for legitimate health issues or when rape or incest result in pregnancy. But that represents 15% or so of all abortions. Most people who are pro-life agree that there should be exceptions for these things. There’s only a very small amount of people that are hardcore fanatics who reject abortion for any reason whatsoever, they’re just very very loud.
My problem with pro-lifers is you’re all just content to pretend to be the mouth-piece for babies because somehow you think you know better than the person who is carrying said baby.
Conservatives’ advocacy for preserving life rings hollow when it’s clear they will actively oppose policies beyond birth, like free lunch programs for kids in schools, debt forgiveness for students, and proper sex education with use of contraceptives.
It’s clear the real goal is to birth future laborers and christian missionaries. Your entire position on pro-life is actually a desperate attempt to preserve a dying religion. You’re devoid of the kindness and love taught by your own God.
I have no respect for people who pretend to care about preserving life.
First respect women, then you can respect their fetus: https://midwest.social/post/8438167
It doesn’t matter if there should be exceptions because the reality is that in many states today there are no exceptions. Furthermore questions about who decides what constitutes a “legitimate health issue” or not make many doctors in states where there are exceptions hesitant to perform abortions even in cases where they believe it’s in the patients best interest out of fear that it would be deemed not medically necessary after the fact. Even in cases where doctors know a pregnancy is non-viable they delay aborting it until the mother is in critical condition just so that there’s no question that it was an emergency.
Show me these exceptions.
Did we make them Ohio for that ten year old? Are we making them in Texas? Cox was a privileged white lady with means to try the system and ability to seek treatment elsewhere. Do you think people with less will be better advocates for themselves? Apply some goddamn logic.
You seem to love this idea about the way the world should work to the extent you ignore how it actually runs. Show me the test that indicates a pregnancy is a product of rape. Or will the woman have to wait until the sentencing? (You do understand many many rapes are never reported?) Birth control fails! A big swath of abortions are from married women with kids who just want to best provide for the families they have. So to ‘save’ a fetus we condemn other kids? How does that make any sense to you? Arguments to deny reproductive autonomy are completely illogical.
Who woulda thought that taking away women’s rights for their own bodies would have blowback?
They’re probably just about now realizing they should have taken away the right to vote first, the right to self-determination second. Rookie mistake.
These people don’t see women as people, so I’m sure they’re shocked.
Your rights end where another person’s rights begin. An unborn child is a person. And when you have to weigh a trolley problem when the mother’s health is in life-threatening risk it’s a serious thing that you have to consider. Abortion should be legal for situations where the mother’s health is in literal life-threatening risk but even then it’s a very serious choice.
Even if we grant you your invalid position, you are still wrong. So close. You claim the unborn person has rights, but so did the mother.
In no legal jurisdiction in the United States is one person ever required to give up their bodily autonomy for another. This the mother, according to your argument, is under no legal obligation to provide the other person, according to your argument, the mothers body for any reason. If the mother wishes to discontinue the use of her body she can. If the other person dies as a result of this decision, the mother bears no responsibility.
This is well understood case law and common law.
GTFO with this terrible argument.
It doesn’t matter what the law is. Laws can and should be changed when they’re unjust.
You’re fundamentally radical and not living on planet Earth that you think this way about pregnancy. It’s the product of a degenerate and corrupt life you’ve lived that has allowed you to justify unjustifiable immorality.
In other words you’ve burned your conscience to a crisp through your vices.
It’s an abominable position you put forward. You are wholly given over to vice and darkness and sin.
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Removed, rule 3.
Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (perjorative, perjorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (perjorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect!
You should repent of your sins. And I’m not a fundamentalist in the slightest despite being Christian.
Painting everyone that disagrees with you as a fundamentalist allows you to dismiss their arguments easily but it doesn’t change the arguments. You’re still wrong, you’ve just blinded yourself to it even further by dehumanizing and dismissing your opponents.
By the way it’s possible I’m wrong about your character. But I was so shocked by the revoltingness and the disgustingness of your argument that I assumed only a horrible person would make such an argument. Forgive me if I’m actually wrong and you’re just erroring in judgment here. But you write as if an unborn child is a parasite on the mother with no right to survive within its mother’s body.
As if the mother’s actions didn’t deliberately create that child. And it’s not a parasite. It’s a human being. Your argument that a child should be aborted because the mother doesn’t want to “lend her body to it anymore”, it’s so disgusting and immoral, It’s just sick. It literally stuns me. I’m not even sure how I can explain and prove to you that that’s immoral.
You don’t like being called a fundamentalist because you know they are abhorrent.
You don’t like your own argument. You can’t even stomach the inkling that your own hypocrisy.
Most of my best friends are atheist and agnostics and I’m actually a liberal Christian.
I will abort a fetus as a sacrament to Lucifer in your honor. Thank you for your prayers.
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I will absolutely dare to tell you how to live your life. And you do the same thing. It’s the nature of having moral beliefs. Are you going to say the same thing to someone that rapes their children or murders refugees? Your entire personality as an activist is based around telling other people what they should do with their lives but only when a religious person is in the scenario does that suddenly become invalid.
You’re a hypocrite. I am not. You should stop that. Be a better person. And quit advocating for the murder of unborn children because of inconvenience and a skewed belief on bodily autonomy that ignores literally every other factor. As if it exists in a vacuum.
Actions have consequences and I will absolutely advocate for social justice. That includes for those alive and those yet unborn.
A fetus is not a person its a collection of cells. It’s not up to you to weigh any problem. It’s up to the woman and their doctor.
A human is not a person it’s a collection of cells.
See how ridiculously reductionist that sounds? And it’s absolutely up to me because I vote and I live in a society that is a democracy. I will vote on issues that matter to me. And you can do the same. So if you want to support policies that murder inconvenient children, most of which are black by the way which is very racist of you, then that’s your choice but I’m not going to support that with my vote or publically in the town square.
It is a scientific fact. Yo’re going to vote to see what my daughter’s future might be? I think not.
Stating that a collection of cells is not a human being is not a fact.
Human beings are indeed collections of cells.
A human being is a collection of cells with self awareness. People have varr6ing degrees of self awareness as you’ve displayed
So people who are in comas are no longer human beings?
What about people who are asleep?
What about people who are being put under for surgery?
I think your definition of human being is bad.
An unborn child is a person.
You realize this is where Democrats fundamentally disagree with you, right?
Not all Democrats, only a minority. And I’m not really a Democrat anyway I’m a Christian socialist.
It’s a majority.
Currently, 80% of Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents say abortion should be legal in all or most cases, up from 72% in 2016 and 63% in 2007.
That depends entirely on you phrase those questions. The pro-life versus pro-choice debate has wildly varying response rates based on how the questions are phrased.
True. Also depends heavily on how far along this hypothetical pregnancy is. But in general, most democrats agree, fetuses are not people, at least not until they can survive outside the womb.
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Ah, a Christian. That explains your inane comments.
Christianity is a disease
I’m not normally one to generalize because I’m content to let people do what they want so long as they don’t bother others, but modern Christianity calls its adherents to go out and pester people at best.
Please stop talking out of your ass
The American political system has done nothing but ratchet to the right for about a hundred years.
It’s so far right that people think liberals are left wing. That shit is center right lmao
That was my thought when they said X identified as conservative, Y liberal, the rest moderate or unsure.
How about none of the above since they’re all right of center?
Are you guys referring to the labels as applied to the Democratic party, or the people who self-identify as one or the other?
Because while I think it’s generally fair that the Democratic party is center-right (largely absorbing any half-relevant positions Republicans once had), self-identifying liberals especially of youth and women probably are leftist despite colloquially referring to liberal. In that respect I’d imagine most of these people are effectively Social Democrats by European standards; meaning a mixed bag of regulated markets combined with a strong national government and select nationalized industries (eg, medical insurance). Basically the Nordic Model.
Social democrats and market socialists. The issue is that Lemmy loves to insist on the idea that liberalism and leftism are not compatible, which is an outdated, reductive idea.
Liberalism is just the idea that individual liberty is critical to democratic agency. Myself, and basically every other contemporary leftist of consequence, would argue that democratic agency is also critical to socialism as well.
The only place where this is a controversial take are internet forums where “leftism” means “violent revolutionary fan service” and the participants are, in turn, educated entirely within this framework which exists basically nowhere in the academic mainstream.
The issue is that Lemmy loves to insist on the idea that liberalism and leftism are not compatible, which is an outdated, reductive idea.
Well to the previous commenter’s point, that may just be the result of two people using different definitions of the terms.
Plenty of people do consider their “liberal” beliefs to be incompatible with “leftist” beliefs as evidenced by how many called anybody to the left of Biden as “too radical” during the 2020 primaries. We can debate about the terms but at the end of the day those people have made it clear they openly acknowledge fighting anything to the left of whatever Biden is.
There’s a world of difference between “saying something is not viable” and “fighting against something”.
You voted against our interests. You and I are not on the same side.
I mean, in the sense that you’re on the side of the Russians, that’s correct
a mixed bag of regulated markets combined with a strong national government and select nationalized industries (eg, medical insurance). Basically the Nordic Model
So liberal in exactly the same sense American democrats are… People not liking that “liberal” is a negative in any circle left of those who consider themsleves that, doesn’t change what it means…
No, not necessarily. Social Democracy is one-step further left on the spectrum when considering a balance between Free Markets versus total nationalization and closed markets within the purview of a functioning Democracy. In essence, a truly mixed economy with a strong welfare foundation and regulator control rods for the markets. For all intents, the progressive-left of the Democratic party are Social Democrats while the mainline “corporate dems” are ostensibly Liberals.
Tankies dreams’ aside, markets & trade aren’t going away anytime soon.
That’s a lot of words to say you don’t understand what liberalism is… No mount of “strong welfare” counteracts support of capitalism and the oppression and inevitable fascism that comes with it. Because yes, necessarily.
The fact that you think me saying all of this makes me a tankie is a perfect demonstration of your lack of understanding of these terms and ideas (and/or of your unwillingness to challenge your bias and think outside of the parameters capitalism has set for you).
Cool.
Classical Liberals and especially Neoliberals (what the Democratic party is) are solidly against nationalized industries and while liberalism is ok with either laissez-faire or regulated markets, neoliberalism is strictly anti-regulation.
Socially democratic nations (Nordic nations being the most consistently socially Democratic) have nationalized industries (Norway has its energy, transportation, finance, and communications all nationalized).
Probably the closest the US has ever been to social democracy was when social security and the new deal were enacted. The Democratic party has never been majority Socially Liberal to my knowledge, which is one step right from Socially Democratic, which is yet another step right from Democratically Socialist.
I mean that’s what I am, the problem is whenever I use the word social Democrat as an American people have no idea what I’m talking about so I just call myself a Christian socialist instead. After all that’s just a more muscular version of social democracy.
How many environmental regulations were there in 1924? How many black people could vote? Child labor laws? Could you vote in primaries, or did party bosses in literal smoke filled rooms choose a candidate? Could states shut down newspapers and ban non-Christians from holding office?
If we go back about ten more years, women can’t vote, and Senators are still chosen by state legislators rather than a popular vote.
Why are leftists so quick to forget their successes?
For real; that comment was either made by a child, or someone severely ignorant of history
This is a pet peeve of mine: the term “liberal” has gone through a semantic shift in the US. It used to mean “generally left leaning”. I think maybe the word “progressive” has taken on this role now.
I think the confusion comes from the fact that many European languages always used the cognates of “liberal” to mean “free market”, I.e. “economically conservative”. This is also how the term is used in some academic fields, like economics. But this is precisely the opposite of the other meaning!
It’s pretty clear the article is using the first meaning. They even use “leaning left” interchangeably with “liberal”.
My theory is that since Americans have been interacting with Europeans more online since the 2000s, the terms have become conflated.
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To not spam same text I will link it
Well fucking vote like it then.
Well conservatism, especially in the US, is extremely hostile to women, so that makes sense. It’s also hostile to a bunch of other outgroups. And the environment. And truth.
Conservative women confuse the hell out of me. Like conservative brown people.
I grew up in the South, moved to California. Started working with a Latino, who loved guns and idolized the South. Had a rebel flag and everything. He heard my accent and decided we must become friends. I had to very gently inform him that the people he idolizes would gladly tie him to the backs of their trucks and drag him to the Mexican border.
He later decided to throw in with the only other pro-gun group in California: Antifa/far left anarchists, and he seemed much happier with them lol
Confusing to me too.
My black friends supporting trump because Biden is “no better”, and when I dig deeper, they parrot inaccurate statements from idiot influencers.
Pure anecdote but I think it’s representative of the bigger shitshow Republicans brought upon themselves:
My MIL voted for Trump in 2016 and was a lifelong Republican. Because she has two daughters and is quite a proponent of strong independent women, after seeing the reversal of Roe and watching The Handmaid’s Tale, she is now fervently anti-Republican.
After seeing that sudden paradigm shift in beliefs, it gave me a little hope. It also proves yet again that when Republicans actually get to implement the policy they want, it is deeply unpopular.
I mean it’s good that she changed her mind but it’s a little disappointing it took trump and abortion bans for her to connect the dots. Better than nothing I guess.
I hear you. Though that just goes to show just how strong entrenched beliefs and the right-wing echo-chambers are. If it was easy to pierce the veil, there’d be no Republicans left.
If it was hostile to rich people, it would be gone by now.
That’s just nonsense. I don’t agree with the conservative movement either but how is it hostile to women? Let alone extremely hostile.
Abortion ban with no exceptions as the other person said. That’s dangerous and cruel.
Some are against no fault divorce. That’s insane. That’s going to keep people in abusive relationships. That can affect men too but is more common in women.
Deny any gender gaps in pay or other economics. If you refuse to acknowledge a problem, it’s unlikely you’ll remedy it.
Some members seem to think women having the vote was bad, if I remember that Thiel essay correctly.
Generally anti inclusion and diversity stuff.
Frequent apologists for rapists.
At best are indifferent to sexual harassment as a problem.
Bad on social programs, so downstream from that you have like childcare. That affects men, too, but I think via tradition that affects more women.
Bad on child leave. More laws granting maternity and paternity leave is not a conservative position.
That’s just shooting from the hip. I’m not prepared to write a well researched essay on my phone on the train at this time, sorry.
Abortion ban without exceptions
How many states is this actually the case and how many is it just an elective abortion ban with actual exceptions put in place?
Shoo, troll.
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Your disagreeing only makes you wrong- it’s your comment history that makes you a troll.
Most of Lemmy only knows what conservatism is based on the strawman they get from other lefties, and even if they did know what conservatives actually believe, the vast majority of Lemmy users are incapable of evaluating someone else’s viewpoint on its own terms; they will declare it internally inconsistent when it is merely inconsistent with their own values.
You’re asking a question with the presumption of empathy. That makes you a good person. It also makes you an outcast here.
That’s disturbing and I wonder what I’ve gotten involved with here then cuz I thought this would be the anti-reddit that would support free speech and make it great.
If you find a Lemmy community where you can be yourself without getting encircled by screeching harpies, let me know. I haven’t been at home on social media since before Ruqqus got overrun by neo-Nazis.
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Liberal is still too far right.
It’s high time we had a strong labor movement in this country.
This poll seems to be focused on social conservative vs liberal, not economic liberal vs leftist
Why people oppose liberals to conservatives? Opposite of conservatives are reformists, not liberals.
Part of it is branding-- in the US the GOP got people to think of them as conserving (ie preserving) something, whereas if people got asked to describe a similar situation they might come up with something like regressive. Liberal generally makes sense linguistically, because it’s the same root as liberate, as in you’re free to do what you want.
So whether it comes from a brand or a misunderstanding it doesn’t really matter because conservative vs liberal is how hundreds of millions of people in the US use and understand the words, and you can’t tell people (especially at that scale) that how they speak is wrong because that’s not how language works.
You will need to break decades of propaganda ops pushing the idea that labor is equivalent to socialism/communism or at least attached to the forces of evil in some form or another, or that a union is an evil money stealing organization that the ruggedly individualist American should never submit to.
It will likely be easier to wait for the misinformed generations to simply die out than actually affect that sort of change.
This is the page I’m on. I’ve tried to convince my neoliberal parents that: unions are not lazy across the board, that taxes are a heavier burden on the poor than the rich, that China doesn’t have cockroaches infesting every inch of their cities, the violence of the American military, the corruption that exists within our government (on the liberal side), the similarities between conservative and liberal economic policy, etc…
You get tired after a while.
Judging by your comment you and I absolutely do not agree on what is best for the future of our country. Progressive tax is important, corruption exists within all governments but the ‘both sides’ argument is a horrendously stupid take that ignores social and environmental policy, and the similarities between conservative and liberal fiscal policy exist because the Overton window has shifted way too far to the right (in America); to see truly leftist/liberal economic policy, we must shift the spectrum away from the conservative/right side.
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American political ideology as a whole has shifted left in recent years
Pfffffffffff… 😂🤦♀️
The American political landscape doesn’t even have the left on it.In all honesty, it’s really fucking depressing that despite the blatant and open attack by one party on women’s rights, and the complete impotence of the other to restore, or hell, even fucking address what bare minimum rights they once had, outside of a campaign speech, more women haven’t realised that no one in the system is serving them, and shift to the actual left, but sadly the propaganda seems just too powerful (or on some cases, the other privileges still too comfortable to risk, even in the face of loss of autonomy to the state).
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Your comment is such a huge straw man argument, I’m naming it Scarecrow. Wtf are you on about, friend. The comment above yours made none of the assertions you’re disagreeing with.
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And it’s not something that you need to be a woman to have an opinion about considering it’s not just a woman’s body at stake.
You’re right about one thing, men and other people who have uteruses also get a say.
Over their own motherfucking bodies.
About which you (nor your make believe feminists) get none, you abusive anti-choicer pos.Removed by mod
The piece of shit misogynist anti-choicer is also a transphobe, fucking shocker… 🙄
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To say your comment rises to the level of transphobia would be disingenous. You have absolutely no understanding of what it means to be trans and have no business calling anyone delusional.
Doubling down, comment after comment, earns you a ban. Read up on the topic before you come back.
“No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.”
So I’ve got everything set up that will allow me to have a child and I’m getting married. Women like me have existed longer than wither of us have been alive good sir
You are a man and you have been fooled into this belief by a segment of society. It will haunt you until you accept your actual nature which is what you were born as.
You are well within your right to say “abortion is a sin” like the way you are within your right to say “idolatry is a sin”.
The problem is that your argument for abortion being the same charge as murder doesn’t amount to good legal reasoning. Not wanting people avoiding consequences for “debauchery” is just reason why YOU don’t want abortion to be legal and NOT a good reason to make abortion a murder charge.
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I never said anything about bodily autonomy. I stated that just because you think abortion is/can be “convenient” isn’t grounds for declaring abortion the same as a murder.
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There is zero quality science that supports transgenderism being anything other than a psychological phenomenon.
Only if you ignore the bulk of medical science. You can spend five minutes on PubMed. You don’t seem particularly literate, but you might be able to use assistive tools to help you.
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Okay, so basically anything that doesn’t confirm your preconfirmed notions you discard. It’s very easy to confirm whatever you want if you dismiss everything that disproves it out of hand :)
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gross. go back to reddit.
What’s gross is killing an unborn child because you perceive it as an inconvenience to your debauchery. It’s evil.
The vast majority of abortions are performed to protect the would-be mother or cut losses after the pregnancy has already failed. Usually both. Putting up barriers to that isn’t helping the unborn. It’s killing and torturing women. That’s evil.
That is not even remotely true and it is factually false. Here’s a source that proves you’re lying.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/reasons-for-abortions#reasons-for-abortion
Only 12% or less of people cited health reasons for an abortion.
That is not even remotely true and it is factually false. Here’s a source that proves you’re lying.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/reasons-for-abortions#reasons-for-abortion
Only 12% or less of people cited health reasons for an abortion.
The comment should not be downvoted, it is accurate from a reputable source.
Question for you. When there are shortages on organ donor lists that will cause people to die, should the government be able to compel heathy individuals to donate organs they don’t need? What about for blood shortages?
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Its a probing question to find out where the moral line is. It is a ridiculous proposal for sure, but it is basically the same ask as forcing a woman to carry out an unwanted pregnancy.
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I don’t think you actually do want an nuanced discussion, but here you go.
Let’s start by acknowledging that everyone has different morals which makes basing rules of law on morals a difficult proposal. But let’s say that rules for a fair and just society usually come down to that one’s rights ends where someone else’s begins. Maybe you disagree with this, but I’d say it is a pretty basic standard to make things fair.
So in the abortion debate, the opinion of whether or not the unborn have any rights in society. Some people will say no, that until you are a living breathing human, you are not a part of society and its rules. To theses people, the abortion debate ends there. The unborn have no rights so abortion is justified.
Some people believe that the unborn have just as many rights as anyone else, so then my proposed scenerio starts to come into play. If we can force women to give up bodily autonomy in favor another life, then why not enact similar rules to save others in society as well.
Now, you might say, “hold on a minute, I think that the unborn actually has more rights because they are among the most vulnerable in society and can’t live unless they have some rights over the mother’s body.” Well, in that case then my scenario does seem pretty silly, and to some extent that makes sense, as there are plenty of laws that center around the welfare of children, but none that force specific people to give up bodily autonomy in the same way that forced pregnancy does. I would also expect people in this camp to support laws to support children in need by providing food, housing, and other support they need. So in my opinion, if you support abortion bans but don’t support laws that help take of children in need, then you are a hypocrite, especially since social support comes in the form that doesn’t force any individual to not have control over their own body. Now a lot of GOP politicians seem to fall in this category, so my scenario is aimed directly at them.
Okay, so say you support the rights of the unborn as well as favor societal structures to also help children in need. This at least I can understand, but I would still say that abortion bans are misguided because they usually end up disproportionately affecting people without a lot of means in the first place and do nothing to address the reasons that women actually get abortions. I would say that if you can start by addressing those things with things like free and easy access to birth control, financial compensation, and fostering environments that teach consent so woman can feel safe turning down sex that can lead to pregnancy. But to try none of those and jump straight to punishing women seems like supporting cruelty in the face of better options.
I look forward to your nuanced response.
It’s not about bodily autonomy and so I reject the premise of your comparison. But to further throw you askew I do support mandatory vaccination. The answer as with so many things is “it depends on the situation”.
It’s good to have principles but it’s also important to live in the real world and understand when there are exceptions because there are exceptions to every rule and only fundamentalists disagree with that.
Only sith deal in absolutes.
But it is about bodily autonomy. You are advocating to force people to use their bodies against their will. And most people who support these policies don’t ever have to worry about it happening to them.
You are right that the real world needs exceptions or compromises. I’ll just never understand that why we need to compromise on the rights of the “unborn” vs enacting policies that would do a lot of good for those that are living and suffering instead that doesn’t force people into losing choices over their own bodies.
I’m insisting that they not murder their unborn child because they failed to use protection or didn’t contemplate that sex makes babies. Bodily autonomy has nothing to do with it. You sacrifice your bodily autonomy to an extent when you get pregnant. That ends when the child is born.
So do you support abortion in cases of rape where the woman didn’t choose to have sex?
Not that it matters of course. As we see the reality of anti abortion laws generally push for few or no exceptions, so rape victims have to continue enduring trauma for something they have now control in.
If you asked me how to really reduce abortions, then I would suggest comprehensive sex education, along with free and easy access to contraception to everyone, as well fostering environments that respect consent so women can feel safe saying no. Again, after all of that I’d still draw my line that gives women over the rights to their bodies. But to support outlawing abortion before any of those things just seems like supporting cruelty in the face of more effective options.
Yes as I’ve said many places and I probably should have been more clear in my original comment there should always be exceptions for rape, incest or when the mother’s health is in life threatening risk.
I’ll even go one further than you did and I would say that we should make contraception free and just pass it out like candy and I don’t just mean condoms I mean all types. Not reduced cost. Totally free. I’m pro-life and that would reduce abortions tremendously. Most pro life people are not extremists or anti-contraception.
I’m also happy to pay higher taxes to provide prenatal care and I support Universal health Care in general. Medicare for all.
because there are exceptions to every rule
That sounds like a rule to me. Which means it has an exception. Which is a contradiction for the rule.
Welcome to the limitations of pure logic friend. There are limits to pure reason as Immanuel Kant observed.
Kant was full of shit. He whole philosophy is defeated the moment a non-human animal cares for its young. His fault for trying to prove Christianity was true.
In any case some of us care about what is true and what is not, which includes using the badic tools of logic. This is why there are no conservative intellectuals, when they lose the game they throw the board.
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It’s indicative of the lack of of prefiguration in regards to feminism and postmodernism. The base has become complacent in its malaise. The structure is unyielding in its control of social dynamics. And the superstructure busies itself with intellectual derailment.
That being said, I have no idea what I’m talking about.
Whatcha out, folks… he’s copy-pasta-ing theory like it applies to reality.
Username checks out.
They mean to say women don’t want their bodies regulated by men that don’t know a damn thing about how a woman’s body works. Like that fucking idiot Republican politician who’s also veterinarian and said he’s done thousands of ultrasounds on pregnant animals and that makes him an authority on women’s bodies. Like how the fuck do you make that jump in your head?
By equating women to livestock…
That clearly makes him a cannibal.
American political ideology as a whole has shifted left in recent years
What the fuck is this bullshit. This is the opposite of what has happened.
On the whole, the American public is shifting left (view how polls reflect generally more progressive positions compared to elected officials). The vocal minority are shifting right.
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People didn’t vote for Biden, as much as they voted against Trump.
I voted for Biden and am pretty fucking happy with him, he’s significantly better than I thought he would have been due to his trust in his wildly competent administration. The only problem, and it is a massive one, is his unyielding support for Israel.
Edit: forgot to mention, I’ll also be voting for Biden in November.
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Because if you’re even remotely educated on what’s going on, you’d realize republicans are just objectively evil. They are not even a political party. If anything, liberals are right wing, and republicans are just devil spawn.
That doesn’t explain gender divergence.
active marketing by republicans as clearly outlined by steve bannon does
Or maybe the divergence of male/female voting has nothing to do with suffrage. Maybe women value social safety nets offered by Democrats or maybe they value the Democrat foreign policy or maybe they just find Donald Trump more repulsive than do men. I can think of a lot of reasons that could explain the divergence that have nothing to do with someone (who, I don’t know) wanting to repeal a woman’s right to vote.
who, I don’t know
Steve Bannon worked on the Trump campaign and specifically called out disaffected, uneducated, terminally-online young men as an untapped market for Trump to capitalize on.
In the US parties are large coalitions of a lot of different groups an interests and not all of them mesh well together. This is true of the Republican Party and the Democrat Party. To write off the divergence as being explained by upset, uneducated young males who spend a lot of time online seems naive. The population of such males is small and they are an even smaller percentage of the electorate. They might make the difference in a tight election but they do not explain the significant divergence in party association between males and females. Plus the divergence on gender between left and right is not limited to the United States. It is a phenomenon found in many other countries. So there’s a lot more to it than a small demographic in a single nation.
And the women who aren’t liberal are simply fucking morons. There is no other excuse for supporting the party that so openly hates your gender.
What if some of them are communists that prepare revolution after which they will establish UHC, universal higher education and UBI?
I guess I should be clear that I mean the ones that are conservative Republicans are all morons lol
might be more fair to say “women in the US are becoming less inclined to support a dumpster fire like the self-identified modern Conservative Party”.
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conservatives by their actions want women either pregnant or at home taking care of children, whether they are theirs or someone else’s, or both. they especially want them silent and totally reliant on their men since hod forbid they get paid for their work.
liberals want to provide equal rights and equal opportunity.
from my perspective, if you aren’t white, male, wealthy and christian, I don’t know know why you are a republican since the party doesn’t care about you.
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We found the Spiders Georg of liberal women.
But in all seriousness, how could a woman perceive the conservative agenda and NOT become more liberal in response?!
Oppression kink?
Keep conservatism in the bedroom, I’m sick and tired of them just flaunting their kink in public all the time
hey when you’re erasing women can you please only erase the women for trump?
