- cross-posted to:
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- canada@lemmy.ca
- cross-posted to:
- canada
- canada@lemmy.ca
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how about the terms ‘ethnic cleansing,’ ‘genocide’ ?
I’m quite partial to ‘crimes against humanity’
‘slaughtering innocent civilians’
1% of Gaza, 0.004% of all Palestinians. An awful tragedy and must be stopped. I could be convinced otherwise but that doesn’t sound like genocide or ethnic cleansing. It sounds like 150 times fewer civilian casualties than the Iraq war, proportionate to the population.
I’ll go ahead and type what they mean.
NRPI - No Real Person Involved
It’s the most disgusting but most honest corporate term I have ever seen. Palestinians aren’t real to these people. They are clumped together into “casualties” and maybe, if they are lucky, “civilian casualties”. How many “non-real person” deaths does it take to force people to acknowledge this genocide?
Watching an MSF volunteer doctor describe WCNSF while the interviewer sat mute and emotionless was telling.
There’s an acronym that’s unique to the Gaza Strip, it’s WCNSF - wounded child, no surviving family - and it’s not used infrequently
She almost broke down mid sentence, the host was ready to move on to the next segment piece of the broadcast…
Multiple doctors have been vocal about this disgusting new acronym.
History is not going to look at Israel well. They done fucked up bad and it’s gonna catch up to them.
Bombs dropped from thousands of feet and artillery shells lofted into Gaza from kilometers away result in death and destruction on a massive scale, but it is carried out remotely. The deadly results are unseen by those who caused them and the source unseen by those [who] suffer and die.
It’s a different kind of event and is described differently as ‘intensive,’ ‘unrelenting,’ and ‘punishing,’ raining death and destruction on one of the most densely populated places on earth…They are different stories, and we have tried to describe both accurately and vividly.
It’s not “murderous” if it’s done from far away, apparently. Hitler didn’t personally see the Jews he sent to the death camps so he wasn’t “murderous” he was just “unrelenting” and “intensive.” Aww he was just a hard worker then, bless his cotton socks.
If that doesn’t merit the terms “murderous” and “brutal,” what in hell does??? I do agree that both terms are a bit too lenient and lighthearted for what they are actually doing. But, I’m sure the next generation of Palestinians won’t be already amassing arms in anticipation of a bloody retaliation necessitating further non-“murderous” responses from Israel in the future. Right?
That’s 1.1% of Gaza’s population killed in just 3 month!
Dunno how you calculated that, but if the 22600 figure is correct, it’s 2.8%. Gaza population is currently 800,636 (edit I guess this is could be an estimate, not an exact figure). Still growing even with this war, apparently.edit2 <= junk figures based on shit source I guess.Against Palestine population it’s 0.4%.
Does Hamas report itself how many of its soldiers are in that 22600, or is it claiming that all of these fatalities are actual civilians?
It’s 2 million according to this: https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/gaza-strip/
Ok, my source was perhaps fucked.
1.1% is about the same as Bucha.
The 22,600 figure is most likely a severe underestimate of the people murdered by occupation forces in Gaza (and elsewhere, because they’ve been murdering people in the West Bank and Lebanon as well). I shared this in another comment but The Lancet published this which determined there was no evidence that the Gaza Ministry of Health is inflating these statistics, if anything they are being under reported.
As for how many are “actual civilians” the way that is being reported currently heavily favors the narrative of the occupation because the assumption is simply that all males over the age of 13 are combatants, and even using this absurd framing around 61% of those killed are women and children. The occupation forces have proportionately killed more journalists and UN aid workers than in any other conflict in recent history.
History will judge Israel and its supporters harshly.
As for how many are “actual civilians” the way that is being reported currently heavily favors the narrative of the occupation because the assumption is simply that all males over the age of 13 are combatants, and even using this absurd framing around 61% of those killed are women and children. The occupation forces have proportionately killed more journalists and UN aid workers than in any other conflict in recent history.
Sure, perhaps, but the number of Hamas deaths is certainly higher than 0. Would be interesting to know the actual number, however impossible such a figure is to get in this situation.
History will judge Israel and its supporters harshly.
Eh. We’ll see.
Oh, really?
Removed by mod
I haven’t read this, but yeah… War is brutal by nature, so to call it anything else is a flat out lie
CBC are toadying sycophants, this surprises nobody. I don’t even know why people pay attention to them, they’re irrelevant.
20,000 is low numbers for the British. If they admit that’s too many people killed, they’d have to admit that they’re an island descended from murderous, genocidal zealots and colonizing savages.
To be fair, you can say that about every country. Humans are a virus that spreads without remorse or concern.
Finally, someone who gets it. Fuck humanity.
Pretty common for war to kill a lot of civilians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio
Sad reality
It’s an interesting argument. Does Israel not get to claim moral outrage if Palestinians bomb school buses because that’s just what happens in war? If there is no morality in war, Hamas did nothing wrong, correct? Rapes happen in war. Deaths of children happen in war. Could Iran use nerve gas against Tel Aviv and have it simply written off as “that’s what happens?”
Asking as someone who has fired and been fired upon at the request of my government.
Is this 22,600 number accurate? It’s more precise than I would expect. I’ve also seen estimates of 8000 hamas militants killed, which is presumably included here as the Gaza authorities have never previously made a distinction. That suggests about 2 civilian deaths per soldier killed which is honestly a lot less than I would expect given all the “genocide” rhetoric.
I think Afghanistan ended up being about 1 civilian per 2 soldiers? That’s 4x lower, but was largely fought in low population density deserts. Is there even a modern equivalent to draw a comparison with to gauge what a “normal” civilian casualty rate is for urban warfare?
The math would mean they have labeled every post-pubescent boy as Hamas.
How so? I obviously assume the numbers on both sides are exaggerated, which is why I rounded everything in favor of there being more civilian deaths. How many hamas fighters do you think have been killed?
The Lancet is generally regarded as one of the most reputable and trustworthy medical journals. An assessment of the figures from the Gaza Ministry of Health published in the Lancet found that there was no evidence of inflated mortality statistics, and even went beyond that to say that it is considerably more likely that the Gaza Ministry of Health is under reporting the casualties providing the most conservative figures.
If MoH mortality figures were substantially inflated, the MoH mortality rates would be expected to be higher than the UNRWA mortality rates. Instead, the MoH mortality rates are lower than the rates reported for UNRWA staff (5·3 deaths per 1000 vs 7·8 deaths per 1000, as of Nov 10, 2023). Hypothetically, if MoH mortality data were inflated from, for example, an underlying value of 2–4 deaths per 1000, it would imply that UNRWA staff mortality risk is 2·0–3·9 times higher than that of the public. This scenario is unlikely as many UNRWA staff deaths occurred at home or in areas with high civilian populations, such as in schools or shelters.
Mortality reporting is difficult to conduct in ongoing conflicts. Initial news reports might be imprecise, and subsequent verified reports might undercount deaths that are not recorded by hospitals or morgues, such as persons buried under rubble (appendix pp 1–2). However, difficulties obtaining accurate mortality figures should not be interpreted as intentionally misreported data.
Although valid mortality counts are important, the situation in Gaza is severe, with high levels of civilian harm and extremely restricted access to aid. Efforts to dispute mortality reporting should not distract from the humanitarian imperative to save civilian lives by ensuring appropriate medical supplies, food, water, and fuel are provided immediately.
Kids pick up and fight as well. Why does puberty matter
“Did that even happen?
And if it did, was it that bad?
And if it was, was it that big of a deal?
And if it was, does it matter?
And if it does, did they mean it?
And if they did, didn’t the victims deserve it?”The narcissist’s prayer is no less cowardly when you phrase it in question form.
Copy and pasteing an internet trope isn’t always useful
You can look up civilian casualties in wars
And you could look up whether or not this is a genocide: https://time.com/6334409/is-whats-happening-gaza-genocide-experts/
Well if 2-3 people with a label said so I should ignore the numbers, the terrorist human shield fighting style, and urban warfare’s well documented chaos.
Why use hard numbers to come to conclusions when I can have someone tell me it is
I like that even your source has experts disagreeing and cherry picking what equates for real genocide
Pay attention folks: this is why fascism is anti-intellectual, because they have to deny the experts that will recognise what they’re doing and call it out for what it is.
If I said something factually wrong please correct me. Otherwise let’s leave the ad hominem attacks unsaid.
Well, first of all is the idea that this level of destruction is in any way normal in war.
Take a look at this chart here. Those date ranges in the chart have some of the bloodiest conflict in each war, and yet on any given day only a handful of children would die.
Israel is killing an average of almost 150 children per day.
That’s why we’re calling it a genocide.
Gazas population is like half children of course they show up more than normal
Did you ever wonder why the population of Gaza is majority children?
Do note that the people of Gaza have been under a complete border lockdown for the last 17 years. Nothing enters or exists without the IDF okay. Including money for Hamas.
Even before the current genocide, 40% of Gazan households experienced extreme food insecurity.
“more than normal” in this case is 1/3 of the total child deaths in 11 years in Syria, done in ONE MONTH
Weird how population density and firepower differences can be multiplicative. Welcome to war it sucks
Appreciate the good faith response. While I’m certainly not going to excuse thousands of dead children, I don’t find these other conflicts comparable for the following reasons:
- these are averaged over about a decade, most of which is in the form of a “frozen” conflict between entrenched armies outside of populated areas. We might (I don’t have numbers on this) see a much higher rate if we focused in on the hottest/most urban part of each war. The “30 day” range for this conflict is widely out of step with the others. If we “froze” the conflict for a decade, we’d depress the number by 120x and it would suddenly match the others.
- most of these did not involve significant urban conflict in populated areas, especially with an entrenched defender making use of human shields.
- the average age in Gaza is only ~18, meaning all else being equal, child deaths will be outsized. Further, Hamas employs teenage soldiers and the provided numbers don’t make a civilian/militant distinction. As horrific as it is, there is a difference between an armed 17 year old child soldier and a 3 year old bystander.
Okay, city fighting is messy…
Except the second item on the list,
https://edition.cnn.com/gaza-israel-big-bombs
Israel is using 2000lbs bombs in Gaza, using hundreds of them. These are not, in any way, targeted strikes. They kill civilians by the dozens.
In 20 years of war, the US only ever used 500lbs bombs in urban environments. Even that was often barbaric in the amount of collateral damage caused.
Also, are you calling the fucking Battle of Mosula frozen conflict?
That was some of the bloodiest fighting in the entire war, all of it urban. There were fewer children killed in the entire 9 months than there have been killed in 3 in Gaza. And not by a small amount.
Yeah those are fair points. I’ve never defended the usage of 2000 pound bombs in urban areas.
I’m also certainly not calling Mosul a frozen conflict, merely noting that it is deceptive to present an average figure of child deaths over the 14 year long Iraq war against 30 days of intense urban fighting in Gaza.
I didn’t follow the fighting at the time, but per wikipedia the operation took 9 months, with the majority of the fighting/bombing happening during the initial 3 months during which half the city was taken. The enemy force was approximately half as strong as Hamas, and an estimated 20k - 40k civilians were killed, with about 1 million displaced. Interestingly it seems like the population density is somewhat comparable today, although it is hard to estimate the population at the time.
Taken together, this might make Mosul a good benchmark against which to judge the Israeli assault. Doing so, Israel definitely seems more cavalier to civilian deaths, but not wildly so. I still don’t see “genocide” here.
I still don’t see “genocide” here.
Said another way: “And if it was, does it matter?”
You’re following the narcissist’s prayer to a tee.
Take it from someone who was paying attention at the time. As bloody and horrific as it was, the fighting in Mosul was fucking laser guided precision compared to what Israel is doing in Gaza.
Israel is using massive bombs in areas that it tells refugees are safe. They bomb refugee camps and convoys. As in, directly targeting them, with bombs designed to cause as much collateral damage as possible.
And remember, the refugees are only camped in those places and taking those routes because Israel said they would be safe.
As to the “not being fair” comparing the dead children in different wars, remember that Total deaths of children in Iraq, for the entire 14 years of the conflict with ISIS, were less than died in Gaza in a single month.
That’s what you don’t seem to understand. That’s why we can easily call this a genocide in motion.
Add in comments by Israeli officials about “voluntary resettlement” in other countries.
It’s pure genocide. They’re literally saying “leave your home or die, surrender your land and property on the way out”. It’s exactly what the Germans said to Jews in the lead up to the Holocaust.
But thats not an ad hominem attack, it’s a direct critique of the form your statement takes.
An ad hominem would be “you are wrong because you are a coward”. My statement was in effect “you are wrong and you are a coward”.
You could call it an insult, although I would say it was a generous term for someone who offers up mealy mouthed equivocations over the wholesale slaughter of civilians from the air by a nuclear power.
You didn’t say much that was wrong; you didn’t say much at all. You were just asking questions.
Genocide bots don’t care about reality
Not only Urban warfare but a terrorist regime that is actively using its own civilians as human shields.
Two hostages were waving white flag got shot.
Well that proves Israel hates israelis. That settles it. They killed several of their own.
Wars never have friendly fire or civilian casualties. Hamas never pretends to surrender just to suicide bomb.
Israel is totes doing the genocide I guess
Yes that’s right they were, unsure what that has to do with the above.
Military friendly fire incidents are also incredibly high in most conflicts.
Anthony Hurndall shared information about his son’s shooting, showcasing how Israeli military tactics are responsible for killing innocent people.
Tom Hurndall was a photography student, International Solidarity Movement volunteer and an activist against the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories.
In April 2003, the 22-year-old was shot by IDF sniper Taysir Hayb while assisting Palestinian children caught in the crossfire in Gaza. He was left in a coma and died nine months later.
An investigation revealed that Soroka Hospital’s medical staff removed bullet fragments from Tom’s brain. Initially, the hospital claimed that his injuries were caused by a baseball bat. When that was refuted, the Israeli government claimed he was carrying a weapon and was a gunman.
Hayb was later sentenced to eight years in prison for manslaughter after it was revealed that he thought he was following standard military procedure.
“The investigation further revealed that, as standard practice, the IDF routinely falsely misrepresent civilians and children as militants, or as armed, and fabricate accounts of events as a pretext for their killing,” Hurndall, who is director of the Center for Justice, told The Times.
Again unsure what this has to do with Hamas using civilians as human shields.
This is really just a propaganda outlet for the muslim brotherhood eh?
This is the same level of whataboutism that chinese nationalism when you point out that maybe some people died during the great leap forward.
Can you just communicate in words what you’re trying to say? I can pull up stories making either side look worse too.
