Again, all this hinges on future research that may or may not yield anything or might take an unknown amount of time, with a massive risk of tons of false positives once it’s put into force. Meanwhile we currently have treatments for pedophilia than can make it go into remission and render people no longer a threat to children. From a materialistic point of view, this does not check out.
Also, you’re planning on researching people arrested for sex crimes to understand all of pedophilia? This gets into all kinds of sample bias and the same issue as studying any actively manifesting disease to understand things about the disease pre manifestation. That has failed many times and is now a well-known pitfall in medical research. The data you collect could very well not help you in determining potential pedophiles at all, only pedophiles who are active sex offenders. That can definitely still be helpful in determining the extreme end of pedophilia, but I suspect that’s not good enough for you.
And what do you do after this? On everyone’s 18th birthday subject them to a mandatory extremely invasive psychoanalysis and jail them if they hit anything on your hypothetical framework?
Also also, TED is not a scientific journal or even a half reputable source of science, I would have thought all the anticommunist BS that comes out of that would have put socialists off trusting it. Also, if it is a sexual orientation, how will you prevent it from spontaneously cropping up even after you kill all the current potential pedophiles? There is a genetic component to sexual orientation, but also a huge epigenetic component in how the brain develops during pregnancy and childhood. Actually, this is the same for mental disorders too so whether it’s a disease or a sexual orientation doesn’t matter. If I understand it correctly, your solution hinges on a single massive purge and then we’ll be done with it forever? Not going to happen. Also, because you’re proposing doing this before they have any sort of physical manifestation of this, it raises all kinds of issues of you’re killing or imprisoning people for things they had no control of of you admit that it’s not a choice, which a sexual orientation (or mental disorder) aren’t. Abusing someone is a choice yes, which is why I wholly support harsh punishments for those, but not mental states. You even said in your first comment that you want to isolate people from society that haven’t done any wrongs. So what are you punishing them for? Having a disposition that developed spontaneously that they had no control over?
Just curious, is pedophilia the only thing you have this stance toward? What about fetishes with adults? Bondage? Duress roleplay? What about sexual attraction to animals or objects? Or more importantly pivoting from sex, what about sociopathy and violent tendencies? Those people can harm children too, with a much higher incidence I might add, and IMO violence is just as if not more ingrained into society as sex, also violent tendencies are much easier to determine than sexual disorders, should we be stopping all attempts at trearment for that and isolating potential violent people from society too and giving them no chance to change or overcome their disorders?
Why may future research not yield anything that helps filter pedophiles from rest of society? Why do you think so strongly that something should not be tried because you feel it can result in false positives? If there can be false positives, is it really worse than letting these creepy uncle/aunty incidents let happen, just because they would be less noticed in society and less voiced against by silent children?
On everyone’s 18th birthday subject them to a mandatory extremely invasive psychoanalysis and jail them if they hit anything on your hypothetical framework?
After pointing out Western media brainrot, you actually use “extremely invasive” phrasing for this. I see no issue with a mandatory test at the end of 12th grade school, and is easy to implement, just like one exists for drivers license. An independent committee can be created for it by government. If any such test may be “extremely invasive”, why not just say even driver tests are extremely harsh or heinous or whatever the hell it can be called? If driver license prevents rash people from the right to driving, guess what, children can also be prevented from destroyed life.
Do you realise you are presenting this argument in a time where this is slowly becoming a massive hidden bubble in society, ready to pop at some point? The whole thing is being accelerated by AI art and Instagram even more than you think, as well as anime and kpop going way more mainstream than it ever has.
There is no proposal by me, for a single massive purge, or whatever Himmler-ist way you think I said it. A test like this at the end of high school seems similar to any test you need to graduate from school. Another test like this can be mandatorily conducted at the age of, probably, 45 years old, in society. This factor can be determined more strongly by research and past criminal records, but a method like this can easily reduce pedophilia in society. The fact that such a test has not existed, when numerous entrance tests for universities have existed, or psychoanalysis has been abused by West for purposes of capitalist advertising and consent manufacturing for war, blows my mind.
Just curious, is pedophilia the only thing you have this stance toward? What about fetishes with adults? Bondage? Duress roleplay? What about sexual attraction to animals or objects? Or more importantly pivoting from sex, what about sociopathy and violent tendencies?
Adults having fetishes or roleplay or BDSM with other adults consenting is none of our business. However, zoophilia is quite the problem. Zoophilia industry mostly involves female humans and dogs, horses and pigs, and the argument that studio makers and females present is that animal willingly desires to hump or insert their penis in their butthole, which is fucking disgusting levels of manipulation and abuse of (I think this falls in) neurobiochemistry. Every zoophile purposely hides the fact that their pet/farm animals have been kept extremely lonely, despite having their sexual needs like every human, to the extent poor dogs hump pillows at homes. As such, animals make do with what they get, which is… a perverted human.
* Zoophilia and bestiality technically have distinctions, however the distinctions are so blurred, most activity under the label of zoophilia is basically animal sex. Most of this distinction point out is usually just trolling by bestiality practitioners and their supporters.
Regarding violent tendencies, video games are attempted to be blamed by West, and is continuously proven wrong on it. What allows for violent tendencies is much closer to a combination of readily available and advertised/cheered for gun rights, plus socio-economic instability and dissatisfaction among populace. This is far too condensed and simplistic but explains why mass shootings, a kind of violent tendency, happens so much in USA. Various kinds of violent tendencies can be researched upon and a framework created for this in society.
How does a test determine pedophilia? And if someone was a pedophile, do you not think they’ll try literally everything to cone off as normal? By invasive, I was imagining like a ton of MRIs with the person forced to look at pictures of children to gauge their subconscious response, or an interrogation style thing in a dark room or something. Maybe you think it’s acceptable, and maybe it turns out to be, but I don’t think so as of writing this.
Also, okay, you got someone who hit one of your criteria for potential pedophilia. They have never acted on it, as you said in your first comment, have not done any wrong. What do you propose? They be jailed for life just because of a mental disposition? You have already rejected the notion of medical treatment and reeducation, so I assume this is what you’re getting at? Like, if the consequence was mandatory treatment or therapy, and not permanent isolation from society without the chance of returning, I would think a lot more favorably of this kind of screening, but again, you seem to have already rejected any sort of treatment angle. On top of treatment, for jobs involving looking after children it can be valid if you want to outright ban anyone who hits something on the pedophilia test, like how you already have to clear a much more stringent background check than if you were applying for your standard office job, but again, from what I gather you seem to mean just stick them in a prison camp for life, you know, for having not actually committed any offenses. Again correct me if I’m wrong.
Finally, the false positive thing, I don’t agree. That sentiment, again, bears an uncomfortable resemblance to the West’s attitude toward Islam and terrorism, and to that end have arrested and imprisoned countless Muslims on the thinnest suspicision that they are terrorists, completely with going for the whole “for the greater good” and “even if we throw innocent people under tge bus at least we’re protecting more innocent people” angles too. If someone who is in no way attracted to children gets swept up in this, do you just expect them to go “oh well, guess I’ll just let my life get screwed over through no fault of my own to protect those kids!” I assume you’re in no way attracted to children right? You can at least see why a ton of people would have a problem with that right? Would you be okay with being arbitrarily labeled a pedophile and getting whatever punishment you propose? What about your family? I assume they’re not pedophiles either, but what if this hypothetical test thought they were? This again, if it was just treatment and not isolation from society, people who are falsely flagged would be less of a problem, because getting treated for a mental problem you don’t have might be inconvenient but isn’t going to destroy your life, and it can be an acceptable inconvenience in the goal of protecting children.
You need to quote me where I proposed infinite MRIs, infinite jailing of everyone, no re-education, no medical treatment, or whatever you are just conjuring up here. I cannot act nice and jolly when you argue like this, THIS is what is wrong. I said that re-education on a mass scale is incredibly hard to achieve. I said that there must be conducted scientific research to form a framework using convicted pedophiles and those with past criminal records and similar people. Yes, neurobiochemistry research is included. And I included some feasible ways as examples.
I will argue that you are acting like one of those “Westerner freedom” and “body autonomy” types of people, which drives me nuts. You want a solution out of such a complex problem magically without, or perhaps the most minimal and no-inconvenience ways for all of society? Tough luck, not possible. You tell me pedophilia is a complex problem and also a hornet’s nest that should not be touched, no that is not the way to go about things, accepting status quo.
I do not care what resembles the ill willed and intentionally evil things West has done to rest of the world. China banned AI art without watermarks (https://lemmy.ml/post/652248), so now that means le ebil seeseepee censorship? No, it has clearly good intent that anyone with enough understanding can point out in a snap.
Someone who is not a pedophile, will not be a pedophile, even when isolated from society. I never said isolation from society is permanent for false positives, again quote me on this. And any framework by design contains safeguards besides refinement of criteria, among other elements. I think there are plenty corrections you need to make in the way you interpreted anything I said.
My mistake. I would be interested in knowing what “isolate from society” means to you though, both for someone who has pedophilic tendencies but “did no wrongs” as you originally suggested, and for actual false positives. What’s the criteria and procedure for release? What do you plan on doing with the people on the inside? You never actually defined that phrase and I just assumed you mean sticking people in a prison for life. Maybe I’m totally wrong and misunderstanding you, but again, you never actually described your proposed procedure through all the time we’ve been discussing or did you correct me until just now, and now that you have I am asking for you to further elaborate so I have a better understanding of your stance and where I have misinterpreted.
I don’t think this can only be done without inconvencing anyone, now you’re putting words in my mouth. I even said that inconvenience can be acceptable if it is not life destroying for the people who have done no wrongs. I do support mandatory treatment for people suspected of pedophilia for example, always have.
Also, again, banning media is not the same as banning people. I have said this numerous times too. I don’t think China’s ban of non watermarked AI images or any of their supposed censorship is a problem because non watermarked AI images are not living. Same as I have no problem banning anime or kpop or any other media you mentioned.
I think that even if you interpret my approach as jailing potential people, everyone besides the guilty never really are kept in any jail forever, unless it is a concentration camp like Nazis built or USA has like ones at Guantanamo, and that clearly means neither the authorities jailing people nor the motivation are benevolent at all . Even if you interpret this as asylum style jail, those never keep around people forever. I fail to see how you interpreted it as whatever you thought of, its too ridiculous from this discussion where we are talking about benevolent ways to purge pedophilia out of society. Like, seriously, what?
Banning media in blanket ways usually goes wrong, but something like AI art tool is democratised to an insane extent at this very point we speak. Stable Diffusion, Waifu Diffusion, many models are 4-8 GB trained model files downloadable and any basic laptop with no dGPU, regardless of OS, in the last 6-7 years can create one full HD art piece within 5-10 minutes.
Alright, so can you describe what your proposed procedure would be? Again, both for a “potential pedophile who have committed no wrongs” as you mentioned and for a genuine false positive. We’ve established what it’s not, but I’m genuinely curious as to what you think it should be.
Two psychoanalysis tests, one at the end of 12th grade school, and one around 45-50 years of age (this age should be determined more accurately using research and past criminal records of pedophiles).
Tests are mandatory to clear otherwise, depending on questions wrongly answered and the score you get, various consequences like being subjected to heavy monitoring in public areas, or interrogation by authorities, or taken in custody or taken in asylum for treatment.
False positives be used further to refine above procedure, and they be given some form of token/ID that certifies them to get extra immunity against future possible interrogations or being suspected in criminal cases, plus further perks like such ID/token carrying an approval mark to give them higher precedence than rest of society when getting work job in public/private sector.
Those found guilty in behavioural patterns by asylum jurisdiction be divided into several strata, depending on severity, and treated accordingly, and those found guilty by committing crime, be isolated from society for a non-bailable minimum of 25-30 years or more, where punishment can go upto death.
The procedure should resemble something like this, and be fortified further depending on research results and whatever data we currently have from society.
This system can be run over 50-100 years in society, depending on if 1 or 2 generations of people go through this process. And since there is almost no digital involvement in the process, and false positives get more precedence in society, people will accept consequences with lesser confrontation.
Okay, so from what I gather you do support the solution of psychiatric treatment and rehabilitation of non-offending (have not committed sexual crimes) people with pedophilic tendencies? Mandatory medical treatment and rehab for non-offending pedophiles is something I have no problems with. And as I’ve said agree with physical sexual offenses being punished harshly so yeah (involving minors or not it should be punished harshly, but obviously sexual abuse of a minor should be more so). Now that you actually laid out your stance I no longer think it’s massively problematic like I previously assumed.
Again, all this hinges on future research that may or may not yield anything or might take an unknown amount of time, with a massive risk of tons of false positives once it’s put into force. Meanwhile we currently have treatments for pedophilia than can make it go into remission and render people no longer a threat to children. From a materialistic point of view, this does not check out.
Also, you’re planning on researching people arrested for sex crimes to understand all of pedophilia? This gets into all kinds of sample bias and the same issue as studying any actively manifesting disease to understand things about the disease pre manifestation. That has failed many times and is now a well-known pitfall in medical research. The data you collect could very well not help you in determining potential pedophiles at all, only pedophiles who are active sex offenders. That can definitely still be helpful in determining the extreme end of pedophilia, but I suspect that’s not good enough for you.
And what do you do after this? On everyone’s 18th birthday subject them to a mandatory extremely invasive psychoanalysis and jail them if they hit anything on your hypothetical framework?
Also also, TED is not a scientific journal or even a half reputable source of science, I would have thought all the anticommunist BS that comes out of that would have put socialists off trusting it. Also, if it is a sexual orientation, how will you prevent it from spontaneously cropping up even after you kill all the current potential pedophiles? There is a genetic component to sexual orientation, but also a huge epigenetic component in how the brain develops during pregnancy and childhood. Actually, this is the same for mental disorders too so whether it’s a disease or a sexual orientation doesn’t matter. If I understand it correctly, your solution hinges on a single massive purge and then we’ll be done with it forever? Not going to happen. Also, because you’re proposing doing this before they have any sort of physical manifestation of this, it raises all kinds of issues of you’re killing or imprisoning people for things they had no control of of you admit that it’s not a choice, which a sexual orientation (or mental disorder) aren’t. Abusing someone is a choice yes, which is why I wholly support harsh punishments for those, but not mental states. You even said in your first comment that you want to isolate people from society that haven’t done any wrongs. So what are you punishing them for? Having a disposition that developed spontaneously that they had no control over?
Just curious, is pedophilia the only thing you have this stance toward? What about fetishes with adults? Bondage? Duress roleplay? What about sexual attraction to animals or objects? Or more importantly pivoting from sex, what about sociopathy and violent tendencies? Those people can harm children too, with a much higher incidence I might add, and IMO violence is just as if not more ingrained into society as sex, also violent tendencies are much easier to determine than sexual disorders, should we be stopping all attempts at trearment for that and isolating potential violent people from society too and giving them no chance to change or overcome their disorders?
Why may future research not yield anything that helps filter pedophiles from rest of society? Why do you think so strongly that something should not be tried because you feel it can result in false positives? If there can be false positives, is it really worse than letting these creepy uncle/aunty incidents let happen, just because they would be less noticed in society and less voiced against by silent children?
After pointing out Western media brainrot, you actually use “extremely invasive” phrasing for this. I see no issue with a mandatory test at the end of 12th grade school, and is easy to implement, just like one exists for drivers license. An independent committee can be created for it by government. If any such test may be “extremely invasive”, why not just say even driver tests are extremely harsh or heinous or whatever the hell it can be called? If driver license prevents rash people from the right to driving, guess what, children can also be prevented from destroyed life.
Do you realise you are presenting this argument in a time where this is slowly becoming a massive hidden bubble in society, ready to pop at some point? The whole thing is being accelerated by AI art and Instagram even more than you think, as well as anime and kpop going way more mainstream than it ever has.
There is no proposal by me, for a single massive purge, or whatever Himmler-ist way you think I said it. A test like this at the end of high school seems similar to any test you need to graduate from school. Another test like this can be mandatorily conducted at the age of, probably, 45 years old, in society. This factor can be determined more strongly by research and past criminal records, but a method like this can easily reduce pedophilia in society. The fact that such a test has not existed, when numerous entrance tests for universities have existed, or psychoanalysis has been abused by West for purposes of capitalist advertising and consent manufacturing for war, blows my mind.
Adults having fetishes or roleplay or BDSM with other adults consenting is none of our business. However, zoophilia is quite the problem. Zoophilia industry mostly involves female humans and dogs, horses and pigs, and the argument that studio makers and females present is that animal willingly desires to hump or insert their penis in their butthole, which is fucking disgusting levels of manipulation and abuse of (I think this falls in) neurobiochemistry. Every zoophile purposely hides the fact that their pet/farm animals have been kept extremely lonely, despite having their sexual needs like every human, to the extent poor dogs hump pillows at homes. As such, animals make do with what they get, which is… a perverted human.
* Zoophilia and bestiality technically have distinctions, however the distinctions are so blurred, most activity under the label of zoophilia is basically animal sex. Most of this distinction point out is usually just trolling by bestiality practitioners and their supporters.
Regarding violent tendencies, video games are attempted to be blamed by West, and is continuously proven wrong on it. What allows for violent tendencies is much closer to a combination of readily available and advertised/cheered for gun rights, plus socio-economic instability and dissatisfaction among populace. This is far too condensed and simplistic but explains why mass shootings, a kind of violent tendency, happens so much in USA. Various kinds of violent tendencies can be researched upon and a framework created for this in society.
Edit: a little note about zoophilia above
How does a test determine pedophilia? And if someone was a pedophile, do you not think they’ll try literally everything to cone off as normal? By invasive, I was imagining like a ton of MRIs with the person forced to look at pictures of children to gauge their subconscious response, or an interrogation style thing in a dark room or something. Maybe you think it’s acceptable, and maybe it turns out to be, but I don’t think so as of writing this.
Also, okay, you got someone who hit one of your criteria for potential pedophilia. They have never acted on it, as you said in your first comment, have not done any wrong. What do you propose? They be jailed for life just because of a mental disposition? You have already rejected the notion of medical treatment and reeducation, so I assume this is what you’re getting at? Like, if the consequence was mandatory treatment or therapy, and not permanent isolation from society without the chance of returning, I would think a lot more favorably of this kind of screening, but again, you seem to have already rejected any sort of treatment angle. On top of treatment, for jobs involving looking after children it can be valid if you want to outright ban anyone who hits something on the pedophilia test, like how you already have to clear a much more stringent background check than if you were applying for your standard office job, but again, from what I gather you seem to mean just stick them in a prison camp for life, you know, for having not actually committed any offenses. Again correct me if I’m wrong.
Finally, the false positive thing, I don’t agree. That sentiment, again, bears an uncomfortable resemblance to the West’s attitude toward Islam and terrorism, and to that end have arrested and imprisoned countless Muslims on the thinnest suspicision that they are terrorists, completely with going for the whole “for the greater good” and “even if we throw innocent people under tge bus at least we’re protecting more innocent people” angles too. If someone who is in no way attracted to children gets swept up in this, do you just expect them to go “oh well, guess I’ll just let my life get screwed over through no fault of my own to protect those kids!” I assume you’re in no way attracted to children right? You can at least see why a ton of people would have a problem with that right? Would you be okay with being arbitrarily labeled a pedophile and getting whatever punishment you propose? What about your family? I assume they’re not pedophiles either, but what if this hypothetical test thought they were? This again, if it was just treatment and not isolation from society, people who are falsely flagged would be less of a problem, because getting treated for a mental problem you don’t have might be inconvenient but isn’t going to destroy your life, and it can be an acceptable inconvenience in the goal of protecting children.
You need to quote me where I proposed infinite MRIs, infinite jailing of everyone, no re-education, no medical treatment, or whatever you are just conjuring up here. I cannot act nice and jolly when you argue like this, THIS is what is wrong. I said that re-education on a mass scale is incredibly hard to achieve. I said that there must be conducted scientific research to form a framework using convicted pedophiles and those with past criminal records and similar people. Yes, neurobiochemistry research is included. And I included some feasible ways as examples.
I will argue that you are acting like one of those “Westerner freedom” and “body autonomy” types of people, which drives me nuts. You want a solution out of such a complex problem magically without, or perhaps the most minimal and no-inconvenience ways for all of society? Tough luck, not possible. You tell me pedophilia is a complex problem and also a hornet’s nest that should not be touched, no that is not the way to go about things, accepting status quo.
I do not care what resembles the ill willed and intentionally evil things West has done to rest of the world. China banned AI art without watermarks (https://lemmy.ml/post/652248), so now that means le ebil seeseepee censorship? No, it has clearly good intent that anyone with enough understanding can point out in a snap.
Someone who is not a pedophile, will not be a pedophile, even when isolated from society. I never said isolation from society is permanent for false positives, again quote me on this. And any framework by design contains safeguards besides refinement of criteria, among other elements. I think there are plenty corrections you need to make in the way you interpreted anything I said.
My mistake. I would be interested in knowing what “isolate from society” means to you though, both for someone who has pedophilic tendencies but “did no wrongs” as you originally suggested, and for actual false positives. What’s the criteria and procedure for release? What do you plan on doing with the people on the inside? You never actually defined that phrase and I just assumed you mean sticking people in a prison for life. Maybe I’m totally wrong and misunderstanding you, but again, you never actually described your proposed procedure through all the time we’ve been discussing or did you correct me until just now, and now that you have I am asking for you to further elaborate so I have a better understanding of your stance and where I have misinterpreted.
I don’t think this can only be done without inconvencing anyone, now you’re putting words in my mouth. I even said that inconvenience can be acceptable if it is not life destroying for the people who have done no wrongs. I do support mandatory treatment for people suspected of pedophilia for example, always have.
Also, again, banning media is not the same as banning people. I have said this numerous times too. I don’t think China’s ban of non watermarked AI images or any of their supposed censorship is a problem because non watermarked AI images are not living. Same as I have no problem banning anime or kpop or any other media you mentioned.
I think that even if you interpret my approach as jailing potential people, everyone besides the guilty never really are kept in any jail forever, unless it is a concentration camp like Nazis built or USA has like ones at Guantanamo, and that clearly means neither the authorities jailing people nor the motivation are benevolent at all . Even if you interpret this as asylum style jail, those never keep around people forever. I fail to see how you interpreted it as whatever you thought of, its too ridiculous from this discussion where we are talking about benevolent ways to purge pedophilia out of society. Like, seriously, what?
Banning media in blanket ways usually goes wrong, but something like AI art tool is democratised to an insane extent at this very point we speak. Stable Diffusion, Waifu Diffusion, many models are 4-8 GB trained model files downloadable and any basic laptop with no dGPU, regardless of OS, in the last 6-7 years can create one full HD art piece within 5-10 minutes.
Alright, so can you describe what your proposed procedure would be? Again, both for a “potential pedophile who have committed no wrongs” as you mentioned and for a genuine false positive. We’ve established what it’s not, but I’m genuinely curious as to what you think it should be.
Two psychoanalysis tests, one at the end of 12th grade school, and one around 45-50 years of age (this age should be determined more accurately using research and past criminal records of pedophiles).
Tests are mandatory to clear otherwise, depending on questions wrongly answered and the score you get, various consequences like being subjected to heavy monitoring in public areas, or interrogation by authorities, or taken in custody or taken in asylum for treatment.
False positives be used further to refine above procedure, and they be given some form of token/ID that certifies them to get extra immunity against future possible interrogations or being suspected in criminal cases, plus further perks like such ID/token carrying an approval mark to give them higher precedence than rest of society when getting work job in public/private sector.
Those found guilty in behavioural patterns by asylum jurisdiction be divided into several strata, depending on severity, and treated accordingly, and those found guilty by committing crime, be isolated from society for a non-bailable minimum of 25-30 years or more, where punishment can go upto death.
The procedure should resemble something like this, and be fortified further depending on research results and whatever data we currently have from society.
This system can be run over 50-100 years in society, depending on if 1 or 2 generations of people go through this process. And since there is almost no digital involvement in the process, and false positives get more precedence in society, people will accept consequences with lesser confrontation.
Okay, so from what I gather you do support the solution of psychiatric treatment and rehabilitation of non-offending (have not committed sexual crimes) people with pedophilic tendencies? Mandatory medical treatment and rehab for non-offending pedophiles is something I have no problems with. And as I’ve said agree with physical sexual offenses being punished harshly so yeah (involving minors or not it should be punished harshly, but obviously sexual abuse of a minor should be more so). Now that you actually laid out your stance I no longer think it’s massively problematic like I previously assumed.