Capitalism “works” up to a point, in a sense. The issues with Capitalism don’t arise from “selfishness.” Rather, Capitalism necessarily monopolizes and centralizes over time, and competition lowers the rate of profit through automation and raises the barrier to entry. Earlier on, markets can be a useful tool for rapid development, especially when accompanied by a central government carefully pruning and directing them to avoid exploitation where possible, but as markets coalesce into syndicates and large monopolies the benefits of competition disappear gradually. At this point, it makes clear sense to publicly own and plan.
Further, Marxists don’t believe people will “work for the common good.” At almost all phases of Socialism and Communism, people will almost certainly be paid for their labor, be it through traditional currencies in the earlier stages of Socialism to Labour Vouchers, distributed centrally and destroyed upon first use, in the earlier stages of Communism. This is how all Socialist societies have functioned.
When you have to rely on strawmen and, again, non-sequitors in order to feign a point, all you do is feed Marxists with cheap rhetorical wins. I genuinely question your motives here, if you don’t present points in good-faith you only make Marxism look better. This is only compounded by loud declarations of “resistance” towards a mysterious “downvote brigade,” it’s like you enjoy going against the grain for the sake of it.
As for the PRC, yes. There are 8 political parties other than the CPC that work together to form the governing body of the PRC, and there are democratic practices at play from the local to the national level.
I feel the issues with capitalism don’t necessarily arise from the centralization per se (if that were the case, then centralizing the power in the State would be bad too), but from the consequences of that centralization when the decisions of that private entity are entirely “free”. That’s why freedom ends where someone else’s begins.
Please do correct me if I’m wrong (and I say this with complete honesty), but my interpretation is that communism is whenever there’s common (public/communal) ownership of the means of production, while capitalism is whenever there’s private ownership of the means of production.
Under this interpretation (which could be wrong, again, correct me), ALL forms of common ownership are forms of communism (regardless of how fair/unfair are their laws), and ALL forms of private ownership are forms of capitalism (regardless of how fair/unfair are their laws).
I believe that there’s a point where the factories could be so heavily regulated by laws and rules set up by the State that whether they are privately owned or not would be little more than a piece of paper that is used to determine who’s the one who will be executed/imprisoned if the resources are found to not have been distributed fairly.
Of course, no state in the world has reached that point of utopic social democratic capitalistic harmony… but also no state in the world has reached the utopic communist ideal either, right?
It’s more accurate to say that the systemic issues of Capitalism sharpen as it centralizes. Exploitation becomes more naked, competition dies out, barriers to entry become impossible hurdles, and the vast wealth of society is concentrated in the hands of the few. Centralization itself isn’t bad, rather, it’s the natural consequence of the advance of industry. Supply lines, raw material sourcing, trade routes, industrialization, all become closer linked and more sprawling to raise efficiency, and as a consequence markets cease to be competing powers but few large trusts. Socialism flips this on its head by democratizing and collectivizing, keeping the benefits of centralization and spreading them out.
As for Communism vs Capitalism, sort of. Capitalism is categorized by a Mode of Production where Private Ownership and Markets are primary, Socialism is categorized by Public Ownership and planning being primary, and Communism specifically is a Mode of Production where all property has been collectivized globally, and Class therefore erased, with the State alongside it, leaving a world republic. It isn’t a “one drop” rule or about which is more common, but which is primary. Fairness is indeed not the determining characteristic.
The thing about your hypothesis, the inflexion point on ownership, it does matter. If it’s privately owned, the profits go to the owner, if it’s publicly owned then the “profits” go to the whole of society, in the form of safety nets, industrialization, etc. This fundamentally cannot exist alongside Capitalism as dominant because under Capitalism, the Capitalists have control and power, and in Socialism the Working Class does. There would be no benefit for the Capitalists to allow ownership in name only, and the State in Capitalism cannot move in that direction as it is under the control of Capitalists.
If it’s privately owned, the profits go to the owner, if it’s publicly owned then the “profits” go to the whole of society, in the form of safety nets, industrialization, etc.
Is this really what “ownership” means? is it impossible to own something but not get all the profits from it? Even if a law enforces the redistribution of profits?
Also, is it possible that even when they are publicly owned, the “profits” benefit more a particular part of the society than other? how do you guarantee that the one who works the most gets the most? or do you simply don’t mind about that anymore?
It’s more accurate to say that the systemic issues of Capitalism sharpen as it centralizes
That’s essentially what I was saying. In general, centralizing power will always sharpen any unfairness within that power… that’s why the issue is not in the centralization, but in the unfairness. Focusing in the centralization does not address the point.
Most companies pay taxes, yes. The purpose of ownership is the profit, if you run an entity publicly like, say, USPS, profit no longer becomes the purpose. The inverse is true, administrators would likely get more money in Socialism, or labor vouchers in early Communism, than regular workers. Socialism isn’t about equal pay, nor is Communism. As for guaranteeing, that’s not really important. You can pay more for more skilled jobs, or pay the same for fewer hours for dangerous jobs. Look at how Socialist societies exist currently.
If you want to learn more, I have a Marxism-Leninism reading list linked on my profile. The first section is all you really need to get an understanding of terms and basics.
Most companies pay taxes, yes. The purpose of ownership is the profit
Ok, so if it’s only a purpose and not part of the definition, then it is possible to have ownership without profit.
I’d argue, the only reason why the purpose of ownership is profit is because it is profitable to have ownership, but having ownership does not necessarily imply you get all the profit.
From this it follows that if having ownership were to be no longer profitable (or say… still profitable but less than being a worker), then it would be possible to have private ownership (capitalism) where profit is not the purpose of having ownership.
Socialism isn’t about equal pay, nor is Communism. As for guaranteeing, that’s not really important. You can pay more for more skilled jobs, or pay the same for fewer hours for dangerous jobs. Look at how Socialist societies exist currently.
But who guarantees that you “pay more for more skilled jobs” or “pay the same for fewer hours for dangerous jobs”? And specifically, in communism, not in socialism. Let’s not argue on whether socialist societies running in social democratic capitalistic countries can be considered to be from one side or the other. “Common ownership” is not the same as “collective ownership”, and it can come with its very own set of unfair practices.
Also, my question was specifically about the redistribution of the profit. How do you guarantee that the profit goes to the one who works the hardest and not to the one who happens to be in a circumstance that places them in a position where they can reap the most rewards?
Private Ownership itself is not Capitalism. Capitalism and Socialism are labels for economies, not individual aspects of an economy. The USPS is not a “Socialist” section of the US economy while Amazon a “Capitalist” section, rather, the entire economy is designated as Capitalist with Amazon as part of the Private Sector and the USPS as part of the Public Sector. Socialist societies like the USSR had private ownership, see the NEP, or the modern Socialist Market Economy of the PRC. This is similar to what you describe as private ownership being directed by government for the purpose of achieving society’s ends, but not the same.
Social Democracies like the Nordic Countries are not Socialist. The public sectors service and support the private sector, not the other way around, and they fund their safety nets through Imperialism. No country has achieved Communism yet, when we talk about Socialism we talk about Cuba, the PRC, Vietnam, Laos, the former USSR, etc. In Communism, there is no private ownership to begin with, no markets either, all of the economy is publicly owned and planned.
Private Ownership itself is not Capitalism. Capitalism and Socialism are labels for economies, not individual aspects of an economy
This is what I asked you before. What is capitalism? you agreed with the definition I gave. If you are gonna change the term then we are no longer talking about the same thing.
Like I said, I don’t want to talk about socialism because I feel it’s an in-between solution that would just make the topic more complex than it already is. Socialism is not Communism either, so please do not use Socialist examples.
Social Democracies like the Nordic Countries are not Socialist.
I know, that’s why the full term I used was “social democratic capitalistic countries”, I consider them capitalist States.
I explained it before, but I’ll explain it again. Capitalism is, at its simplest, a Mode of Production where private ownership and markets are primary. I’ll expand on what “primary” means this time, because I think this is what slipped by. When I say “primary,” I mean the driving force and trajectory of the economy, as well as which class controls the state. What does the state serve, the Capitalists or the Workers?
Socialism isn’t an “in-between solution,” towards Communism. It’s the process of building Communism. Humanity has never seen Communism, so I am not sure why you are trying to discuss it. What are you trying to talk about, the hypothetical future society of Communism?
Capitalism “works” up to a point, in a sense. The issues with Capitalism don’t arise from “selfishness.” Rather, Capitalism necessarily monopolizes and centralizes over time, and competition lowers the rate of profit through automation and raises the barrier to entry.
Those issues are related to corruption, as mentioned. Corruption exists in all forms of economic systems. The problem with a system which relies on central planning is that corruption is harder to root out or beat via democratic means.
Further, Marxists don’t believe people will “work for the common good.” At almost all phases of Socialism and Communism, people will almost certainly be paid for their labor, be it through traditional currencies in the earlier stages of Socialism to Labour Vouchers, distributed centrally and destroyed upon first use, in the earlier stages of Communism. This is how all Socialist societies have functioned.
I am saying that Marxists believe that people don’t want to own properties or the means of production in favor of central planning. Why shouldn’t they? Because they’re so altruistic and want to favor those who will never be able to achieve such means?
The fact is that some people will have better resources to become capitalists, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay to do away with capitalism. What makes sense then is to make it easier for those who cannot or do not want to become capitalists to have a life free from being abused or harmed.
There are a number of errors with your first paragraph, so I’ll split it up.
First, centralization is not caused by “corruption.” Throughout the M-C-M’ circuit, where money is used to produce and sell commodities for higher quantities of money, drives expansion. Competition accelerates this. Even without any corruption whatsoever, this process will continue, it’s a consequence of markets in general. Those that outcompete absorb or kill off those who undercompete until few large syndicates remain.
Second, claiming that because corruption exists in all Modes of Production doesn’t mean it exists to equal degrees and scales in all Modes of Production. This is, again, more of a point of nihilism, by refusing to analyze the causes and mechanisms of corruption and just applying it in blanket terms, your analysis is not very useful for addressing it.
Third, you never justify why a system based on public ownership and planning is harder to root out corruption, you just leave it as a hanging thesis. What democratic means are more effective when you have a handful of unaccountable individuals in charge of firms, instead of Socialist organization along democratic lines?
As for your second point, I legitimately have no idea what you’re trying to get at. Shifting to public ownership and planning would dramatically increase the level of influence the average individual has over the economy and how it runs, as opposed to Capitalism where that privledge is in the hands of the wealthy Capitalists. Most people would give up their ability to form a business if it meant greater quality of life, because the vast majority can’t start businesses, a rule that becomes increasingly true as barriers to entry increase due to monopolization and increased costs of industrial equipment as it further specializes.
Your last paragraph isn’t really a point against Marxism, or much of a point at all. Safety nets are band-aids given as concessions from the Capitalists, and erode when first available. Capitalist countries are controlled by the wealthy few, there isn’t a genuine democracy in place. For that to occur, ownership needs to be more equal, which requires Working Class supremacy.
Capitalism “works” up to a point, in a sense. The issues with Capitalism don’t arise from “selfishness.” Rather, Capitalism necessarily monopolizes and centralizes over time, and competition lowers the rate of profit through automation and raises the barrier to entry. Earlier on, markets can be a useful tool for rapid development, especially when accompanied by a central government carefully pruning and directing them to avoid exploitation where possible, but as markets coalesce into syndicates and large monopolies the benefits of competition disappear gradually. At this point, it makes clear sense to publicly own and plan.
Further, Marxists don’t believe people will “work for the common good.” At almost all phases of Socialism and Communism, people will almost certainly be paid for their labor, be it through traditional currencies in the earlier stages of Socialism to Labour Vouchers, distributed centrally and destroyed upon first use, in the earlier stages of Communism. This is how all Socialist societies have functioned.
When you have to rely on strawmen and, again, non-sequitors in order to feign a point, all you do is feed Marxists with cheap rhetorical wins. I genuinely question your motives here, if you don’t present points in good-faith you only make Marxism look better. This is only compounded by loud declarations of “resistance” towards a mysterious “downvote brigade,” it’s like you enjoy going against the grain for the sake of it.
As for the PRC, yes. There are 8 political parties other than the CPC that work together to form the governing body of the PRC, and there are democratic practices at play from the local to the national level.
I feel the issues with capitalism don’t necessarily arise from the centralization per se (if that were the case, then centralizing the power in the State would be bad too), but from the consequences of that centralization when the decisions of that private entity are entirely “free”. That’s why freedom ends where someone else’s begins.
Please do correct me if I’m wrong (and I say this with complete honesty), but my interpretation is that communism is whenever there’s common (public/communal) ownership of the means of production, while capitalism is whenever there’s private ownership of the means of production.
Under this interpretation (which could be wrong, again, correct me), ALL forms of common ownership are forms of communism (regardless of how fair/unfair are their laws), and ALL forms of private ownership are forms of capitalism (regardless of how fair/unfair are their laws).
I believe that there’s a point where the factories could be so heavily regulated by laws and rules set up by the State that whether they are privately owned or not would be little more than a piece of paper that is used to determine who’s the one who will be executed/imprisoned if the resources are found to not have been distributed fairly.
Of course, no state in the world has reached that point of utopic social democratic capitalistic harmony… but also no state in the world has reached the utopic communist ideal either, right?
It’s more accurate to say that the systemic issues of Capitalism sharpen as it centralizes. Exploitation becomes more naked, competition dies out, barriers to entry become impossible hurdles, and the vast wealth of society is concentrated in the hands of the few. Centralization itself isn’t bad, rather, it’s the natural consequence of the advance of industry. Supply lines, raw material sourcing, trade routes, industrialization, all become closer linked and more sprawling to raise efficiency, and as a consequence markets cease to be competing powers but few large trusts. Socialism flips this on its head by democratizing and collectivizing, keeping the benefits of centralization and spreading them out.
As for Communism vs Capitalism, sort of. Capitalism is categorized by a Mode of Production where Private Ownership and Markets are primary, Socialism is categorized by Public Ownership and planning being primary, and Communism specifically is a Mode of Production where all property has been collectivized globally, and Class therefore erased, with the State alongside it, leaving a world republic. It isn’t a “one drop” rule or about which is more common, but which is primary. Fairness is indeed not the determining characteristic.
The thing about your hypothesis, the inflexion point on ownership, it does matter. If it’s privately owned, the profits go to the owner, if it’s publicly owned then the “profits” go to the whole of society, in the form of safety nets, industrialization, etc. This fundamentally cannot exist alongside Capitalism as dominant because under Capitalism, the Capitalists have control and power, and in Socialism the Working Class does. There would be no benefit for the Capitalists to allow ownership in name only, and the State in Capitalism cannot move in that direction as it is under the control of Capitalists.
Does that make sense?
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
Is this really what “ownership” means? is it impossible to own something but not get all the profits from it? Even if a law enforces the redistribution of profits?
Also, is it possible that even when they are publicly owned, the “profits” benefit more a particular part of the society than other? how do you guarantee that the one who works the most gets the most? or do you simply don’t mind about that anymore?
That’s essentially what I was saying. In general, centralizing power will always sharpen any unfairness within that power… that’s why the issue is not in the centralization, but in the unfairness. Focusing in the centralization does not address the point.
Most companies pay taxes, yes. The purpose of ownership is the profit, if you run an entity publicly like, say, USPS, profit no longer becomes the purpose. The inverse is true, administrators would likely get more money in Socialism, or labor vouchers in early Communism, than regular workers. Socialism isn’t about equal pay, nor is Communism. As for guaranteeing, that’s not really important. You can pay more for more skilled jobs, or pay the same for fewer hours for dangerous jobs. Look at how Socialist societies exist currently.
If you want to learn more, I have a Marxism-Leninism reading list linked on my profile. The first section is all you really need to get an understanding of terms and basics.
Ok, so if it’s only a purpose and not part of the definition, then it is possible to have ownership without profit.
I’d argue, the only reason why the purpose of ownership is profit is because it is profitable to have ownership, but having ownership does not necessarily imply you get all the profit.
From this it follows that if having ownership were to be no longer profitable (or say… still profitable but less than being a worker), then it would be possible to have private ownership (capitalism) where profit is not the purpose of having ownership.
But who guarantees that you “pay more for more skilled jobs” or “pay the same for fewer hours for dangerous jobs”? And specifically, in communism, not in socialism. Let’s not argue on whether socialist societies running in social democratic capitalistic countries can be considered to be from one side or the other. “Common ownership” is not the same as “collective ownership”, and it can come with its very own set of unfair practices.
Also, my question was specifically about the redistribution of the profit. How do you guarantee that the profit goes to the one who works the hardest and not to the one who happens to be in a circumstance that places them in a position where they can reap the most rewards?
Private Ownership itself is not Capitalism. Capitalism and Socialism are labels for economies, not individual aspects of an economy. The USPS is not a “Socialist” section of the US economy while Amazon a “Capitalist” section, rather, the entire economy is designated as Capitalist with Amazon as part of the Private Sector and the USPS as part of the Public Sector. Socialist societies like the USSR had private ownership, see the NEP, or the modern Socialist Market Economy of the PRC. This is similar to what you describe as private ownership being directed by government for the purpose of achieving society’s ends, but not the same.
Social Democracies like the Nordic Countries are not Socialist. The public sectors service and support the private sector, not the other way around, and they fund their safety nets through Imperialism. No country has achieved Communism yet, when we talk about Socialism we talk about Cuba, the PRC, Vietnam, Laos, the former USSR, etc. In Communism, there is no private ownership to begin with, no markets either, all of the economy is publicly owned and planned.
This is what I asked you before. What is capitalism? you agreed with the definition I gave. If you are gonna change the term then we are no longer talking about the same thing.
Like I said, I don’t want to talk about socialism because I feel it’s an in-between solution that would just make the topic more complex than it already is. Socialism is not Communism either, so please do not use Socialist examples.
I know, that’s why the full term I used was “social democratic capitalistic countries”, I consider them capitalist States.
I explained it before, but I’ll explain it again. Capitalism is, at its simplest, a Mode of Production where private ownership and markets are primary. I’ll expand on what “primary” means this time, because I think this is what slipped by. When I say “primary,” I mean the driving force and trajectory of the economy, as well as which class controls the state. What does the state serve, the Capitalists or the Workers?
Socialism isn’t an “in-between solution,” towards Communism. It’s the process of building Communism. Humanity has never seen Communism, so I am not sure why you are trying to discuss it. What are you trying to talk about, the hypothetical future society of Communism?
Those issues are related to corruption, as mentioned. Corruption exists in all forms of economic systems. The problem with a system which relies on central planning is that corruption is harder to root out or beat via democratic means.
I am saying that Marxists believe that people don’t want to own properties or the means of production in favor of central planning. Why shouldn’t they? Because they’re so altruistic and want to favor those who will never be able to achieve such means?
The fact is that some people will have better resources to become capitalists, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay to do away with capitalism. What makes sense then is to make it easier for those who cannot or do not want to become capitalists to have a life free from being abused or harmed.
There are a number of errors with your first paragraph, so I’ll split it up.
First, centralization is not caused by “corruption.” Throughout the M-C-M’ circuit, where money is used to produce and sell commodities for higher quantities of money, drives expansion. Competition accelerates this. Even without any corruption whatsoever, this process will continue, it’s a consequence of markets in general. Those that outcompete absorb or kill off those who undercompete until few large syndicates remain.
Second, claiming that because corruption exists in all Modes of Production doesn’t mean it exists to equal degrees and scales in all Modes of Production. This is, again, more of a point of nihilism, by refusing to analyze the causes and mechanisms of corruption and just applying it in blanket terms, your analysis is not very useful for addressing it.
Third, you never justify why a system based on public ownership and planning is harder to root out corruption, you just leave it as a hanging thesis. What democratic means are more effective when you have a handful of unaccountable individuals in charge of firms, instead of Socialist organization along democratic lines?
As for your second point, I legitimately have no idea what you’re trying to get at. Shifting to public ownership and planning would dramatically increase the level of influence the average individual has over the economy and how it runs, as opposed to Capitalism where that privledge is in the hands of the wealthy Capitalists. Most people would give up their ability to form a business if it meant greater quality of life, because the vast majority can’t start businesses, a rule that becomes increasingly true as barriers to entry increase due to monopolization and increased costs of industrial equipment as it further specializes.
Your last paragraph isn’t really a point against Marxism, or much of a point at all. Safety nets are band-aids given as concessions from the Capitalists, and erode when first available. Capitalist countries are controlled by the wealthy few, there isn’t a genuine democracy in place. For that to occur, ownership needs to be more equal, which requires Working Class supremacy.