Private Ownership itself is not Capitalism. Capitalism and Socialism are labels for economies, not individual aspects of an economy. The USPS is not a “Socialist” section of the US economy while Amazon a “Capitalist” section, rather, the entire economy is designated as Capitalist with Amazon as part of the Private Sector and the USPS as part of the Public Sector. Socialist societies like the USSR had private ownership, see the NEP, or the modern Socialist Market Economy of the PRC. This is similar to what you describe as private ownership being directed by government for the purpose of achieving society’s ends, but not the same.
Social Democracies like the Nordic Countries are not Socialist. The public sectors service and support the private sector, not the other way around, and they fund their safety nets through Imperialism. No country has achieved Communism yet, when we talk about Socialism we talk about Cuba, the PRC, Vietnam, Laos, the former USSR, etc. In Communism, there is no private ownership to begin with, no markets either, all of the economy is publicly owned and planned.
Private Ownership itself is not Capitalism. Capitalism and Socialism are labels for economies, not individual aspects of an economy
This is what I asked you before. What is capitalism? you agreed with the definition I gave. If you are gonna change the term then we are no longer talking about the same thing.
Like I said, I don’t want to talk about socialism because I feel it’s an in-between solution that would just make the topic more complex than it already is. Socialism is not Communism either, so please do not use Socialist examples.
Social Democracies like the Nordic Countries are not Socialist.
I know, that’s why the full term I used was “social democratic capitalistic countries”, I consider them capitalist States.
I explained it before, but I’ll explain it again. Capitalism is, at its simplest, a Mode of Production where private ownership and markets are primary. I’ll expand on what “primary” means this time, because I think this is what slipped by. When I say “primary,” I mean the driving force and trajectory of the economy, as well as which class controls the state. What does the state serve, the Capitalists or the Workers?
Socialism isn’t an “in-between solution,” towards Communism. It’s the process of building Communism. Humanity has never seen Communism, so I am not sure why you are trying to discuss it. What are you trying to talk about, the hypothetical future society of Communism?
But then I think that interpretation implies, in its very definition, oligarchy.
What do you call a society where private ownership is the main form of ownership and yet has a State designed to serve the Workers?
Socialism isn’t an “in-between solution,” towards Communism. It’s the process of building Communism.
And to build communism you don’t need an in-between solution?
Is it really only “a process”? or is it also a socioeconomic system?
Humanity has never seen Communism, so I am not sure why you are trying to discuss it. What are you trying to talk about, the hypothetical future society of Communism?
Yes. Humanity has never seen a fair society, period. Neither one with private ownership, nor one with common ownership. The aliens were not talking about Socialism, they were talking about a hypothetical future society where ownership wasn’t a thing at all (not even collective ownership in the socialist sense), nor contracts.
And I dared to try to talk as well about a hypothetical future society of (what I initially considered to be, under my previous definition) Capitalism too.
What do you mean by “main” form of ownership? The primary? Or the one most common? If the former, that doesn’t really exist, a state controlled by the workers where the Capitalists have power over the economy would collapse very quickly, perhaps like the Paris Commune in the mid 1800s. If the latter, it would be Socialism, like in the NEP in the USSR, or a more privatized version of the PRC’s economy (which is majority public).
I understand that the aliens are talking about a semi-Communist organization. I am not sure how you expect your form of society to come into existence except as a transitional society, like the NEP in the USSR.
What do you mean by “main” form of ownership? The primary? Or the one most common?
I meant the most common. What do you call it?
Also, note that I did not ask you if it exists or not, Communism does not exist either but that does not invalidate the idea, right?
I am not sure how you expect your form of society to come into existence except as a transitional society, like the NEP in the USSR.
I agree. A transitional “in-between” solution. That’s exactly what I meant, a system that still has not fully transitioned and still depends on some core elements from capitalist systems.
So then you mean Socialism a la the NEP. That would not be Capitalism, moreover it would necessarily trend towards Communism. In an instance where markets and private ownership were primary but workers gained control of the state, it would fall like the Paris Commune did.
I see… well, that seems like a pretty nice idea to me, if it’s the way I’m envisioning it.
Also, as a defender of the idea of division of powers, I honestly prefer when executive powers at all levels are distinct from planning/legislative. So if it does really “necessarily trend towards Communism” I’d hope whatever replaces the private owners does the same job of assuming responsibility if/when unfairness happens as it did before the fall. I’d hate if the same level of scrutiny and legal/social pressure wasn’t placed against the ones replacing them.
You can dig into how the NEP functioned and how the current PRC functions (and is trending towards) to see such a system in action, or look at Vietnam and Laos.
Private Ownership itself is not Capitalism. Capitalism and Socialism are labels for economies, not individual aspects of an economy. The USPS is not a “Socialist” section of the US economy while Amazon a “Capitalist” section, rather, the entire economy is designated as Capitalist with Amazon as part of the Private Sector and the USPS as part of the Public Sector. Socialist societies like the USSR had private ownership, see the NEP, or the modern Socialist Market Economy of the PRC. This is similar to what you describe as private ownership being directed by government for the purpose of achieving society’s ends, but not the same.
Social Democracies like the Nordic Countries are not Socialist. The public sectors service and support the private sector, not the other way around, and they fund their safety nets through Imperialism. No country has achieved Communism yet, when we talk about Socialism we talk about Cuba, the PRC, Vietnam, Laos, the former USSR, etc. In Communism, there is no private ownership to begin with, no markets either, all of the economy is publicly owned and planned.
This is what I asked you before. What is capitalism? you agreed with the definition I gave. If you are gonna change the term then we are no longer talking about the same thing.
Like I said, I don’t want to talk about socialism because I feel it’s an in-between solution that would just make the topic more complex than it already is. Socialism is not Communism either, so please do not use Socialist examples.
I know, that’s why the full term I used was “social democratic capitalistic countries”, I consider them capitalist States.
I explained it before, but I’ll explain it again. Capitalism is, at its simplest, a Mode of Production where private ownership and markets are primary. I’ll expand on what “primary” means this time, because I think this is what slipped by. When I say “primary,” I mean the driving force and trajectory of the economy, as well as which class controls the state. What does the state serve, the Capitalists or the Workers?
Socialism isn’t an “in-between solution,” towards Communism. It’s the process of building Communism. Humanity has never seen Communism, so I am not sure why you are trying to discuss it. What are you trying to talk about, the hypothetical future society of Communism?
I see. Sorry I missed that.
But then I think that interpretation implies, in its very definition, oligarchy.
What do you call a society where private ownership is the main form of ownership and yet has a State designed to serve the Workers?
And to build communism you don’t need an in-between solution?
Is it really only “a process”? or is it also a socioeconomic system?
Yes. Humanity has never seen a fair society, period. Neither one with private ownership, nor one with common ownership. The aliens were not talking about Socialism, they were talking about a hypothetical future society where ownership wasn’t a thing at all (not even collective ownership in the socialist sense), nor contracts.
And I dared to try to talk as well about a hypothetical future society of (what I initially considered to be, under my previous definition) Capitalism too.
What do you mean by “main” form of ownership? The primary? Or the one most common? If the former, that doesn’t really exist, a state controlled by the workers where the Capitalists have power over the economy would collapse very quickly, perhaps like the Paris Commune in the mid 1800s. If the latter, it would be Socialism, like in the NEP in the USSR, or a more privatized version of the PRC’s economy (which is majority public).
I understand that the aliens are talking about a semi-Communist organization. I am not sure how you expect your form of society to come into existence except as a transitional society, like the NEP in the USSR.
I meant the most common. What do you call it?
Also, note that I did not ask you if it exists or not, Communism does not exist either but that does not invalidate the idea, right?
I agree. A transitional “in-between” solution. That’s exactly what I meant, a system that still has not fully transitioned and still depends on some core elements from capitalist systems.
So then you mean Socialism a la the NEP. That would not be Capitalism, moreover it would necessarily trend towards Communism. In an instance where markets and private ownership were primary but workers gained control of the state, it would fall like the Paris Commune did.
I see… well, that seems like a pretty nice idea to me, if it’s the way I’m envisioning it.
Also, as a defender of the idea of division of powers, I honestly prefer when executive powers at all levels are distinct from planning/legislative. So if it does really “necessarily trend towards Communism” I’d hope whatever replaces the private owners does the same job of assuming responsibility if/when unfairness happens as it did before the fall. I’d hate if the same level of scrutiny and legal/social pressure wasn’t placed against the ones replacing them.
You can dig into how the NEP functioned and how the current PRC functions (and is trending towards) to see such a system in action, or look at Vietnam and Laos.