So you’re saying I was a liberal my whole life but just didn’t know it until I fortuitously came across this meme thread and all these helpful people pointed it out? Checks out 🤟
You live in the biggest liberal country, it’s politics are liberal. It’s ruling parties are flavors of liberalism, you just aren’t aware of the terminology I guess. It doesn’t help that the conservative wing of the liberals here label their opponents liberal, it’s an easy misunderstanding to have.
Yes you have always been a Liberal because you exist in a hegemonic Liberal society, ie the only option presented ever are various flavors of Liberal. You are like a fish who doesn’t understand what water is because you’ve never tried to jump above its surface
Liberalism is a word that means different things to different people, especially from country to country.
Having its origins in the assertion of bourgeois right against conservative forces, liberalism of all its different varieties is generally an ideology of the urban bourgeoisie. Very broadly, liberalism asserts individual autonomy against the intrusion of the community into that. The main source of ambiguity in liberalism is the divergence between “economic liberalism” and “civic liberalism”.
“Economic liberalism”, sometimes called Neo-liberalism or “big-L Liberalism” advocates a laissez faire economic regime, i.e., the right of property-owners to exercise the power of money unhindered by regulations, redistributive taxes and so on. Economic liberalism therefore easily makes common cause with the traditional sources of conservative politics – the landed aristocracy and Christian fundamentalists. Neo-liberalism (“Economic rationalism” in Australia) favours reliance on market forces to resolve social problems, rather than methods of state regulation.
“Civic liberalism” on the other hand, emphasises the importance of individual autonomy against determination by traditional norms, racial prejudice, entrenched power relations and economic disadvantage. Under the banner of “equality of opportunity”, civic liberalism can come close to forms of communitarianism in emphasising the responsibility of the community to secure the basic conditions of life of members of the community, or, under the banner of “freedom of the individual” on the other hand, to libertarianism, in emphasising the rights of individuals to make “life-style” choices free from interference by the community, provided they do no harm to others.
In the U.S., “liberal” has the specific connotation of seeking to promote the social good without challenging the right of the ruling class to rule. Thus, the American ‘liberal’ who wants higher wages and a better health service is quite distinct from the labour activist who aims for much the same things but whose conception is that this entails a fight against the ruling elite.
Too bad. I think in its common usage, it’s clear that it varies. We use the Marxist definition which is standard and class based as opposed to relativistic.
Do you have a definition of liberalism that you find useful?
It’s not as though democrats were leaping at the chance to roll back the PATRIOT act or close Gitmo. When Trump was president, they moan about how “insane and backward” his tariffs were, only to double down once in office. It’s like how congress members behave one way when the cameras are in the room, and another when they’re off; the difference is slight and exaggerated for our viewing pleasure.
“Well behaved” You weird racist losers who think of other countries like naughty children to be controlled have been the same flavor of stupid for the last several hundred years, and you deserve the social decay capitalism has wrought on your life.
It’s more like what hundreds of years of political and economic theory have to say, but you clearly don’t read so that explains why seeing the terms used correctly has you completely baffled.
Nah there are plenty of communists and fascists on other Lemmy instances as well. We call people liberals when they do liberal things like voting for a capitalist who implemented neoliberal policies
You’re never going to find a perfect candidate. Trump wants to be an isolationist, sort of how the US was prior to WW2 but he’s also an assclown.
Harris at least can speak in complete sentences so the bar is pretty low around here.
If there’s a third party that isn’t just some joke then I’m all for it but the system is what it is and currently Harris is the best option for me out of the two.
That said, you’re not gonna find anyone in any kind of official capacity in the USA who is going to side with anyone cozied up with Irans government.
we aren’t looking for a candidate. We aren’t voting because we have a principled stance against this government and both of its parties. Not because we’re demanding some sort of “perfect candidate.”
So I said “a capitalist who implemented neoliberal policies” and you thought I was criticizing Harris? I was talking about how Trump is a liberal. Maybe ask why you would mistake one for the other.
We don’t need perfect, just good (ie communist) although right now I’d settle for a non-warmonger anti-imperialist Liberal who didn’t support genocide, but none such options are available because we live in a genocidal war nation.
Unless you think Trump is like, a fascist (which I would entertain but you said you voted for him so I sincerely hope you don’t think that) he’s still within the bounds of liberalism. Free markets, liberty as individuals, private property, etc.
I would contend that Fascism is a subtype of Liberal. You go down far enough the neoliberal path and you are suddenly fascist, there’s 0 hard dividing line
I think that’s fair, I think there are enough distinctions (its strong nationalism and backward- looking revanchism aren’t innate to liberalism, I think there are real points of conflict where libs would usually depart from fascism, absent a threat from their left) that I would accept someone categorizing it as a form of liberalism or as a separate ideology if they support their view. I think for libs though it’s best to try and be charitable if it’s a distinction they recognize.
The original fascists invented austerity and deregulation and privatization. The Nazis and Italian fascists were the pioneers of these policies, unwinding the regulations and social policies of the social Liberals that came before them.
They are functionally indistinguishable from the “economic Liberalism” described elsewhere in this thread and “Libertarianism”. It’s all the same thing in different degrees.
American Liberals are extremely nationalistic, chauvinist, revanchist, warmongering and imperialistic. Your point of difference doesn’t even apply
I think American liberalism is distinct from other countries’ in that way, yes. My experience is that it’s not normal elsewhere. I think the free market strives to transcend national prerogative as well, that’s why Mises and Hayek were so keen to set up organizations like the IMF and WTO to enforce market order on nations without their interests getting in the way. Libs frequently support a “world system” over national interest in other countries.
As I said though, I can buy an argument in either direction, since fascism is so slippery as a term and the common usage of these ideas varies pretty widely. Maybe that’s too accommodating on my part. I dunno. I take your point though.
Homie look at all the European “liberals” clamoring over themselves to arm and fund Nazis to kill Russian orcs. They only pretend to be above that shit, when rubber meets the road they all fall in line.
If all it takes to make a Liberal into a fascist is a scratch, they were always a fascist with a thin coat of paint.
Brother I am over 40 years old and not concerned about being a “winner”. I have a good life with kids, home and wife. I remember being pissed off at the world when I was much younger but grew out of it. Hope you all the best.
I feel very, very sorry for you, then. If you were younger I’d have more hope you’d look back on what you are right now and be glad you’re not like that anymore.
I remember being pissed off at the world when I was much younger but grew out of it.
Not caring about human suffering isn’t the same thing as “growing out of it.”
Hope you all the best.
Passive-aggression is not the sign of emotional health.
I have a good life with kids, home and wife. I remember being pissed off at the world when I was much younger but grew out of it. Hope you all the best.
I feel sorry for your kids. Having a parent who doesn’t care about the world they will grow up in must suck.
Guess what buddy. I am close in your age and still pissed because I have not hardened my heart to injustice and haven’t given up on caring about others in order to silence my conscience to enjoy a comfortable lifestyle at the expense of millions of others. You just keep making yourself sound like a sociopath.
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Trump is also a lib, you just don’t know what words mean lib
So what you’re telling the class is that MAGA is a liberal group?
The liberal doesn’t understand what ideologies are!
So you’re saying I was a liberal my whole life but just didn’t know it until I fortuitously came across this meme thread and all these helpful people pointed it out? Checks out 🤟
Yes.
You live in the biggest liberal country, it’s politics are liberal. It’s ruling parties are flavors of liberalism, you just aren’t aware of the terminology I guess. It doesn’t help that the conservative wing of the liberals here label their opponents liberal, it’s an easy misunderstanding to have.
Just take 10 minutes (maybe make it an hour depending on your reading pace) and have a look at the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article
Like unless you’re a monarchist or some other weird regressive form of conservative, you are a liberal.
Yes you have always been a Liberal because you exist in a hegemonic Liberal society, ie the only option presented ever are various flavors of Liberal. You are like a fish who doesn’t understand what water is because you’ve never tried to jump above its surface
I’ve lived in several different counties lol
All of them bourgeois Liberal dictatorships
Do you live in a communist country?
Bragging about pretenses of being a “world citizen” just screams liberalism… and probably sexpat status.
Being a sexpat creep doesn’t make you more sophisticated.
Yes.
From Marxists.org
Yeah that’s about as far as I got in your novel and realized it wasn’t worth continuing
Too bad. I think in its common usage, it’s clear that it varies. We use the Marxist definition which is standard and class based as opposed to relativistic.
Do you have a definition of liberalism that you find useful?
Okay I didn’t realize you were trying to be helpful. I’ll read your previous comment and reflect
Cool, lmk
Fuck off.
You just announced that you’re willfully ignorant and that’s your defense for being wrong?
8 sentences? NRTE, I’ll just keep being an illiterate douche
To many words? Here’s a tl;dr gif.
fuck you
https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Liberalism
Thanks but i toon these courses in uni instead of the internet
You should demand your money back, lib.
Lib could show them their posts and the university will refund what they paid for the degree
Took
Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden
All of these administrations have more policies in common than in difference. We choose between differently wallpapered liberals.
lol okay buddy. Whatever you say.
It’s not as though democrats were leaping at the chance to roll back the PATRIOT act or close Gitmo. When Trump was president, they moan about how “insane and backward” his tariffs were, only to double down once in office. It’s like how congress members behave one way when the cameras are in the room, and another when they’re off; the difference is slight and exaggerated for our viewing pleasure.
Congratulations you just described every government in existence
No, just the capitalist ones. :)
So every industrial nation. I forgot how well behaved those third world countries usually are.
"So much failing."
“Well behaved”
You weird racist losers who think of other countries like naughty children to be controlled have been the same flavor of stupid for the last several hundred years, and you deserve the social decay capitalism has wrought on your life.
nothing is ever good guys don’t you understand
It’s more like what hundreds of years of political and economic theory have to say, but you clearly don’t read so that explains why seeing the terms used correctly has you completely baffled.
Oh I’ll just take your word for it doidoi 👌
“I’m not a liberal I voted for a liberal”
Convincing argument, now face the wall
Ah so everyone who isn’t on hexbear is a liberal I guess.
Nah there are plenty of communists and fascists on other Lemmy instances as well. We call people liberals when they do liberal things like voting for a capitalist who implemented neoliberal policies
You’re never going to find a perfect candidate. Trump wants to be an isolationist, sort of how the US was prior to WW2 but he’s also an assclown.
Harris at least can speak in complete sentences so the bar is pretty low around here.
If there’s a third party that isn’t just some joke then I’m all for it but the system is what it is and currently Harris is the best option for me out of the two.
That said, you’re not gonna find anyone in any kind of official capacity in the USA who is going to side with anyone cozied up with Irans government.
So I said “a capitalist who implemented neoliberal policies” and you thought I was criticizing Harris? I was talking about how Trump is a liberal. Maybe ask why you would mistake one for the other.
We don’t need perfect, just good (ie communist) although right now I’d settle for a non-warmonger anti-imperialist Liberal who didn’t support genocide, but none such options are available because we live in a genocidal war nation.
It has a definition I’m not sure why that’s such a difficult concept.
Unless you think Trump is like, a fascist (which I would entertain but you said you voted for him so I sincerely hope you don’t think that) he’s still within the bounds of liberalism. Free markets, liberty as individuals, private property, etc.
I would contend that Fascism is a subtype of Liberal. You go down far enough the neoliberal path and you are suddenly fascist, there’s 0 hard dividing line
I think that’s fair, I think there are enough distinctions (its strong nationalism and backward- looking revanchism aren’t innate to liberalism, I think there are real points of conflict where libs would usually depart from fascism, absent a threat from their left) that I would accept someone categorizing it as a form of liberalism or as a separate ideology if they support their view. I think for libs though it’s best to try and be charitable if it’s a distinction they recognize.
The original fascists invented austerity and deregulation and privatization. The Nazis and Italian fascists were the pioneers of these policies, unwinding the regulations and social policies of the social Liberals that came before them.
They are functionally indistinguishable from the “economic Liberalism” described elsewhere in this thread and “Libertarianism”. It’s all the same thing in different degrees.
American Liberals are extremely nationalistic, chauvinist, revanchist, warmongering and imperialistic. Your point of difference doesn’t even apply
I think American liberalism is distinct from other countries’ in that way, yes. My experience is that it’s not normal elsewhere. I think the free market strives to transcend national prerogative as well, that’s why Mises and Hayek were so keen to set up organizations like the IMF and WTO to enforce market order on nations without their interests getting in the way. Libs frequently support a “world system” over national interest in other countries.
As I said though, I can buy an argument in either direction, since fascism is so slippery as a term and the common usage of these ideas varies pretty widely. Maybe that’s too accommodating on my part. I dunno. I take your point though.
Homie look at all the European “liberals” clamoring over themselves to arm and fund Nazis to kill Russian orcs. They only pretend to be above that shit, when rubber meets the road they all fall in line.
If all it takes to make a Liberal into a fascist is a scratch, they were always a fascist with a thin coat of paint.
Voted for Biden in 2020. Trump was a loser and I voted for a loser.
You think that by setting up your circus tent wherever you think the winner will be that you’ll somehow be a winner too, but it isn’t working.
Brother I am over 40 years old and not concerned about being a “winner”. I have a good life with kids, home and wife. I remember being pissed off at the world when I was much younger but grew out of it. Hope you all the best.
I feel very, very sorry for you, then. If you were younger I’d have more hope you’d look back on what you are right now and be glad you’re not like that anymore.
Not caring about human suffering isn’t the same thing as “growing out of it.”
Passive-aggression is not the sign of emotional health.
lol I would simply not admit that after posting like you have all afternoon
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I feel sorry for your kids. Having a parent who doesn’t care about the world they will grow up in must suck.
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Guess what buddy. I am close in your age and still pissed because I have not hardened my heart to injustice and haven’t given up on caring about others in order to silence my conscience to enjoy a comfortable lifestyle at the expense of millions of others. You just keep making yourself sound like a sociopath.
You having fun alternating between two rich fucks who want to suck your soul out? When will you learn neither is on your side?
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https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/
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Everyone who isn’t a communist is a Liberal, yes.
So is hexbear a communist thing?
Everyone on hexbear is also a liberal. Everyone other than me, that is.
Ah so this whole time it was a term of endearment
Lmao fascist. Put your dick in a waffle iron.
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In all seriousness, fascism serves liberalism. Fascism is the the end state of capitalism and is supported by liberals to prevent socialism.
Dick. In. The. Waffle. Iron.
You’re a fairweather clown, then. You bring the circus wherever it looks like you might feel like you’re “winning.”