If we assume Jesus was historically real - let me be clear that I don’t really care who was responsible for his death 2000 years ago. (which Christians believe was required for their own salvation anyhow).
I have never understood why anyone would hold modern Jews (or any Jews at all that weren’t present and involved) responsible for Jesus’ death.
Having said that, I have grown up believing it was more or less true that yes the Jews did kill Jesus. (But again, so what?)
This post spurred me to do some duck duck going. I found these two articles interesting. At least I can see the basis for it now. For anyone else coming at this with a similar understanding:
I will say that the first article does a pretty good job of setting up the case for why people believe that. (Unlike the second which kinda surprisingly acts like no one should ever have thought that in the first place.)
Again, even if every person involved in Jesus’ death had been Jewish, and even if Jesus were the actual earthly incarnation of God as his son, I have never seen any basis to lay this at the feet of modern Jews. But now I know more about it than I did.
Yeah there’s a weird dichotomy there - or maybe actually a consistency, but I came at it differently in my head even though I didn’t mention it.
I also think the basis for so much opposition to CRT (as a lightning rod), the shit in Florida and elsewhere (trying to remove the racial component in textbooks from even things like the Rosa Parks incident), and otherwise denying or trying to hide aspects of US history that deal with how we treated black folks is because modern white folks (of which I am one) include a contingent (of which I am not one) who somehow think they are going to be held personally responsible if they admit all these things happened and continue to happen.
There’s a heavy overlap (IME) between this group, and the group who also continues to claim modern Jews are somehow culpable for the death of Jesus. I feel like their Jew hating almost compels them to try pretending racism has been dead for decades or more, because on some level they expect to be blamed just like they still blame Jews today.
I think the biggest problem with Reparations is calling it Reparations. I’m a firm believer that generational impacts have been felt and continue to be felt by the black community after not just slavery outright, but Jim Crow, and racist influences on laws and mores that remain in effect today. I believe it’s reasonable and ethical for our nation to make some attempt to compensate for that. I don’t think it will ever pass while it’s called Reparations. That term is as much of a lightning rod to the right as anything else you could name, IMO.
I would support of a reparations package, and would tend to vote for politicians who put such a package together or promised to do so. (making a lot of assumptions about what the rest of their politics would look like) But step one would be a unified party of Democrats willing to support it in congress, and step two after that unlikely step would be for there to be not enough R in congress to shoot it down. (also unlikely)
So I don’t know what the details of a reparations package would look like, and I sadly think we’ll never see it successfully navigate our political system, and worse, I don’t think it’s only because the kinds of folks who hate the Jews would come out against it. I think a lot of folks in congress would vote against it on what they felt were pragmatic or politically expedient reasons before it could ever stand a chance.
I don’t know if it could be done by EO. That would be interesting to see.
Reparations are a different matter entirely. I’ve been against them, but not because I don’t think our society has no debt to repay to the descendants of slaves. Quite the contrary, I think there has been generational harm that we need to be aware of and try to make up for.
But reparations gives people the impression that the previous harm can be solved with money, which cheapens it a bit. Plus, there will be people who look at the reparations and say “Racism is over, we paid the bill, here’s the receipt”. The descendants of slaves don’t need a one-time payment, they need a society where everyone is truly equal. We’re not there yet.
Here’s how I try to diplomatically look at it from the receiving end- If you believe in a world where your god has a plan, then part of his plan was to create Jews for the purposes of killing Jesus. Because of that, every Jew who ever existed, exists and will exist is only around so that Jesus’ death would happen. Therefore, all Jews are responsible for killing Jesus.
And before you say it, no, apparently Jesus wasn’t a Jew. He was the first Christian.
For sure - if Jesus had to die for Christian salvation, they should be treating modern Jews like their personal heroes if they must insist on linking them to the event.
So that there’s no misunderstanding the Jews didn’t directly kill Jesus, the Roman Empire did. The Jews of the time weren’t universally response for Jesus death either, much less the Jews existent today. If that isn’t enough Christians are missing the whole “Sons aren’t responsible for the Sins of their Fathers” thing the Bible has going on.
With that out of the way…
The problem with that first link is that Jewish Leadership, who are the ones that conspired together to have Jesus arrested and delivered to a Roman Court, DID have two very good reasons to want Jesus dead and neither of them had anything to do with Heresy.
First, as the article notes, the Jews had a tendency to be unruly so anything that got the general population worked up would bring the Roman Legions down on them and Jesus was definitely getting them worked up with large crowds, loud arguments, and miracles all over the place.
Second, which the article completely skips, Jesus and his teachings were an existential threat to the Jewish Leadership of the time. His teachings not only undermined their Religion but if his teachings were implemented the whole Jewish power structure would become unnecessary and be dissolved. This is blatantly discussed in John 11:47.
Sadly the 2nd link is kinda worthless because there’s nothing in it regarding the Pope’s argument, just that the statement was made. Now I’d go read “Jesus of Nazareth’, Part II” by Pope Benedict XVI but in a fantastic statement about the Catholic Church you have to buy the damn thing! I mean didn’t Jesus kind of have a whole tirade about that?
Anyway, this isn’t mean to be an argument. I just caught your post and was interested in the links so I thought I’d provide some feedback on them.
If we assume Jesus was historically real - let me be clear that I don’t really care who was responsible for his death 2000 years ago. (which Christians believe was required for their own salvation anyhow).
I have never understood why anyone would hold modern Jews (or any Jews at all that weren’t present and involved) responsible for Jesus’ death.
Having said that, I have grown up believing it was more or less true that yes the Jews did kill Jesus. (But again, so what?)
This post spurred me to do some duck duck going. I found these two articles interesting. At least I can see the basis for it now. For anyone else coming at this with a similar understanding:
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/who-killed-jesus/
https://www.npr.org/2011/03/04/134264425/Pope-Jews-Are-Not-Responsible-For-Killing-Jesus
I will say that the first article does a pretty good job of setting up the case for why people believe that. (Unlike the second which kinda surprisingly acts like no one should ever have thought that in the first place.)
Again, even if every person involved in Jesus’ death had been Jewish, and even if Jesus were the actual earthly incarnation of God as his son, I have never seen any basis to lay this at the feet of modern Jews. But now I know more about it than I did.
Same people who want to blame news are vehemently against reparations.
Yeah there’s a weird dichotomy there - or maybe actually a consistency, but I came at it differently in my head even though I didn’t mention it.
I also think the basis for so much opposition to CRT (as a lightning rod), the shit in Florida and elsewhere (trying to remove the racial component in textbooks from even things like the Rosa Parks incident), and otherwise denying or trying to hide aspects of US history that deal with how we treated black folks is because modern white folks (of which I am one) include a contingent (of which I am not one) who somehow think they are going to be held personally responsible if they admit all these things happened and continue to happen.
There’s a heavy overlap (IME) between this group, and the group who also continues to claim modern Jews are somehow culpable for the death of Jesus. I feel like their Jew hating almost compels them to try pretending racism has been dead for decades or more, because on some level they expect to be blamed just like they still blame Jews today.
I think the biggest problem with Reparations is calling it Reparations. I’m a firm believer that generational impacts have been felt and continue to be felt by the black community after not just slavery outright, but Jim Crow, and racist influences on laws and mores that remain in effect today. I believe it’s reasonable and ethical for our nation to make some attempt to compensate for that. I don’t think it will ever pass while it’s called Reparations. That term is as much of a lightning rod to the right as anything else you could name, IMO.
I would support of a reparations package, and would tend to vote for politicians who put such a package together or promised to do so. (making a lot of assumptions about what the rest of their politics would look like) But step one would be a unified party of Democrats willing to support it in congress, and step two after that unlikely step would be for there to be not enough R in congress to shoot it down. (also unlikely)
So I don’t know what the details of a reparations package would look like, and I sadly think we’ll never see it successfully navigate our political system, and worse, I don’t think it’s only because the kinds of folks who hate the Jews would come out against it. I think a lot of folks in congress would vote against it on what they felt were pragmatic or politically expedient reasons before it could ever stand a chance.
I don’t know if it could be done by EO. That would be interesting to see.
Reparations are a different matter entirely. I’ve been against them, but not because I don’t think our society has no debt to repay to the descendants of slaves. Quite the contrary, I think there has been generational harm that we need to be aware of and try to make up for.
But reparations gives people the impression that the previous harm can be solved with money, which cheapens it a bit. Plus, there will be people who look at the reparations and say “Racism is over, we paid the bill, here’s the receipt”. The descendants of slaves don’t need a one-time payment, they need a society where everyone is truly equal. We’re not there yet.
I can’t argue with your points, they are good ones.
Here’s how I try to diplomatically look at it from the receiving end- If you believe in a world where your god has a plan, then part of his plan was to create Jews for the purposes of killing Jesus. Because of that, every Jew who ever existed, exists and will exist is only around so that Jesus’ death would happen. Therefore, all Jews are responsible for killing Jesus.
And before you say it, no, apparently Jesus wasn’t a Jew. He was the first Christian.
For sure - if Jesus had to die for Christian salvation, they should be treating modern Jews like their personal heroes if they must insist on linking them to the event.
Plus, it was the Romans that actually executed him.
Why don’t these people hate Italians?
Pasta.
So that there’s no misunderstanding the Jews didn’t directly kill Jesus, the Roman Empire did. The Jews of the time weren’t universally response for Jesus death either, much less the Jews existent today. If that isn’t enough Christians are missing the whole “Sons aren’t responsible for the Sins of their Fathers” thing the Bible has going on.
With that out of the way…
The problem with that first link is that Jewish Leadership, who are the ones that conspired together to have Jesus arrested and delivered to a Roman Court, DID have two very good reasons to want Jesus dead and neither of them had anything to do with Heresy.
First, as the article notes, the Jews had a tendency to be unruly so anything that got the general population worked up would bring the Roman Legions down on them and Jesus was definitely getting them worked up with large crowds, loud arguments, and miracles all over the place.
Second, which the article completely skips, Jesus and his teachings were an existential threat to the Jewish Leadership of the time. His teachings not only undermined their Religion but if his teachings were implemented the whole Jewish power structure would become unnecessary and be dissolved. This is blatantly discussed in John 11:47.
Sadly the 2nd link is kinda worthless because there’s nothing in it regarding the Pope’s argument, just that the statement was made. Now I’d go read “Jesus of Nazareth’, Part II” by Pope Benedict XVI but in a fantastic statement about the Catholic Church you have to buy the damn thing! I mean didn’t Jesus kind of have a whole tirade about that?
Anyway, this isn’t mean to be an argument. I just caught your post and was interested in the links so I thought I’d provide some feedback on them.
All good, it was an interesting read. :)