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Carcels vs. trainchads
The previous Italian government appointed Cingolani, someone with strong ties to ENI (an infamous Italian multinational energy company with a history of oil leaks and bribes) to the the so-called “ecological transition”.
The current Italian government has cut the subsidies for public transportation and has announced public funding for a renewal of privately-owned cars.
There is no way out of this. The last CEO will die whispering, “profits are up, though.”
to be fair the current italian government are also fascists
I read in a book that the current system of drivers acting on their own without something coordinating their every move is actually 75% as efficient as a fully coordinated system.
Therefore, the benefit obtained with all people using self driving cars is nothing compared to just improving public transit or improving car infrastructure.
I don’t know what book that was or what metrics its using, but my local intersections could easily pass 3x the current number of cars per green light if they accelerated together, and right away.
The number of people who poorly merge and cause traffic shockwaves, how slow cars drive in the fast lane, the accidents caused by human error. Really curious how they came to that 75% number.
I was slightly wrong. From page 237 of Algorithms to Live By, The Computer Science of Human Decisions by Brian Christian and Tom Griffiths, further referencing the paper How Bad is Selfish Routing? by Roughgarden and Tardos, it says that
“…the “selfish routing” approach [of cars] has a price of anarchy that’s a mere 4/3. That is, a free-for-all is only 33% worse than perfect top-down coordination.”
Anyways, the way they got to that number is mathematical game theory. In this case people will choose the fastest route which happens to not be so bad.
It’s also very possible that what they’re concluding is significantly abstracted, but I haven’t read the source reference to know for sure.
Just the number of people being moved on a bus or light rail for a given amount of space tosses that efficiently number away.
Exactly. The point it was making is that perfect top-down coordination takes a ton of resources for a whole lotta nothing.
That’s on the macro level with decision making. I think, coordinated has another advantage on the micro level, the traffic jams will move as one without waiting for information spread from the head, the accidents are less likely to happen and jam even more.
Having said that, I’d still prefer a good and technologically advanced tram network to any amount of cars 🥲
I don’t think cars are ever going away, even if public is the main transportation method. Which obviously sucks, but it’s the way it is.
I’ve always imagined a protocol that lets cars communicate their planned speed. I’m pretty sure this is how cars will work in the future. A decentralized mesh of coordinated vehicles. This means that cars can:
- Maximize constant speed time, improving energy consumption and traffic flow.
- Minimize distance between vehicles based on speed and acxeleration while complying with safety standards.
- Connect to devices such as semaphores in order to tell if the vehicle will pass or not, to make a better decision.
- Connect to other mesh devices such as AI cameras that feed events to the vehicle mesh.
Public is obviously the best option though. Imagine a city with no streets, only subterranean public transportation. You wouldn’t even need such a large public transportation system, cities would be a fraction of the current size. I wonder what percentage of the area of a city is wasted on streets.
In the 90s in school, I did a report and imagined computers would be too expensive to have in every car, so the road itself would have wireless infrastructure to control the cars.
Sounds like a use case for SOLAR FREAKING ROADWAYS!
A hybrid system would be cool. I could see a future where electric vehicles could link up to a pod like train cars for long trips along standard routes, and schedule automated disembarkation for their “stops” to continue the rest of the way to their destination. Full autonomous driving is a difficult problem be a lane pods of this nature could be quite efficient and easier to automate
PRT is kinda like this, but they don’t link together.
That’s a tram
That is 100% a streetcar.
77a? I guess that’d be okay. But I want 77b on the T-T-TTC
T R A M
the line between train and tram is very blurry
I think the point of this meme was that you must either train your models or use train (trams/streetcars/metro/tube etc.)
With a few exceptions, US housing is so sprawled out that I don’t know how we could do an effective train system. As things presently stand where I live, there’s a decent train system, but most people have to travel several miles to get to the nearest station. For many, the park and ride concept works ok, so I suppose that reduces traffic a little bit.
I work in a corridor that lies between two lines with no public transportation anywhere near it.
I guess adding a shiton of buses from residential neighborhoods to train stations would help, but the time that would take would meet with enormous resistance from those who would rather sit in stop and go traffic in the comfort of their giant eighty thousand dollar pickup trucks (in which they are invariably up to their ears in debt)
Under current infrastructure, my twenty minute commute would take over three hours each way on public transportation, and I’d have to be in good enough shape to ride a bike a couple miles to the nearest bus stop, not taking rain snow ice or sweltering summer heat into consideration.
It can be better, but I don’t know that it can be ideal as suggested in the OP without compelling several million people to move closer to the city center.
It takes me a good 15 minutes just to walk out of my large subdivision. And then we’re outside of city limits and down a country road (there are corn fields), so it would probably take me another half an hour to 45 minutes just to get to a place where a train is feasible, let alone has a station there. And there’s no sidewalks.
There’s a city bus now. If we wanted to ride it, and we would, it’s a 5 mile walk. And crossing a four-lane highway would be required.
I would love a robust U.S. train network, but it wouldn’t help me get groceries from the supermarket to my house and I sure as hell wouldn’t want to make that walk in the middle of February around here. Cars are just going to be needed in the U.S. for all the people who don’t live in cities.
A bike could make that hour-long walk into a 15 minute ride.
This is a wonderful and naive statement. I would die within a week if I tried getting around on a bike. The only bikes I ever see on my commute are set out in memorial of people who died there on the roadside.i have lived in many places where bikes and public transportation were great, but reality is very different in many other places.
I am very much aware. I only intended to highlight that public transport doesn’t have to visit every last corner of the suburbs, given proper infrastructure and traffic regulations.
Indeed, that’s also partially a problem outside of the US in more rural parts of many countries. If governments made moving closer to the city center more compelling then I’m sure that lots of people would do so naturally with time. But that would require some actual thought, lots of planning, time and money. It’s not easy to un-fuck decades of bad city planning, especially in the US with it’s myriad of other, connected problems.
Trains are the perfect solution to move people between hubs, but it still doesn’t solve for the last mile problem - which could be solved very effectively with self driving cars (buses, bikes and scooters can work too but based on the usage it can be a mix of all).
I would love a self driving car that would drop me off at the train station, then take itself back home until I return.
The last mile problem exists for cars too, we just don’t think of parking in that way.
How far do you park from your home?
Not very far, thanks to the minimum parking requirements that are a subsidy to car owners and strangling the US.
No one needed any minimum parking requirements to make my house’s built-in garage and I’ve noticed driveways and garages in homes in the other countries I’ve been to as well, so I’m not so sure you’re right about that.
My bad, like most people my age, I have to rent my housing because of the massive amounts of debt I was saddled with early on in the promise for a better life. Suburbs are a different, related problem. It’s a reason why there’s so much urban sprawl, basically making a very expensive luxury item a requirement.
It’s called a very short walk indeed.
Parking lots are a taxpayer subsidy to cars and car owners. As an example, studies show that parking for apartments adds $245 per month onto someone’s rent because of minimum parking requirements.
The last mile problem is more like the last 15-30 mile problem for most Americans.
Good luck installing train stations and other public transport within 1 mile of all rural and urban sprawl. It sounds perfect for big cities but it quickly falls apart when you see how the rest of the country lives outside cities.
Additionally, most commercial vehicles that require delivering tools and equipment on-site will never be public transport based and will still be crowding streets.
Of course we need better public transport, but cars aren’t going away any time soon so let’s make them more efficient with smart coordinated movement.
I used to live out in the boonies, trust me when I say that public transit is more simple than you think in rural areas. There will remain the need for cars and trucks for rural areas, but that doesn’t mean we can’t have train stations going between county seats, busses between towns, and express trains to the nearest big city. Urban sprawl absolutely is a challenge to public transit while deprogramming our collective car brain, but the trick is to place transit where people are to where people want to go. Suburbs already answer 1 of those 2 sides in the equation.
This description of self-driving cars sounds like taxis, but less resource efficient, more error prone, and exclusive to those who can afford to own one.
Additionally, trams/streetcars have been solving the last mile problem since the 1800s. Sure, you run the risk of needing to walk 5 minutes instead of being driven straight to your destination, but I really don’t see how that justifies paving over millions of acres of land merely to have a convenient place to stick our cars.
My nearest bus stop is four miles away with no buses or bike lanes. I live inside the perimeter loop of a major US city.
That sucks. That’s why I think we should build more bus stops instead of millions of acres of parking lots and forcing everyone to spend thousands of dollars a year to own and operate their own personal heavy machinery.
Or it could be solved by good city planning. Or hell, even bad city planning, just not this down right malicious shit we have now under car culture.
the last mile problem is trivially solved by bus lines, bicycles, and just walking using the legs god gave you
It’d make more sense for it to give other people rides to/from the station when you’re not using it. Public self driving cars.
You could also walk, cycle, take a bus, or take a tram.
Absolytely! Options when you are traveling with small children or a lot of luggage are limited, so there’s still opportunities there.
Yea, but why not just have a transit station within a 2km radius that you can walk to/ bike to? No need to build expensive roads for cars. U’d get a much more efficient transportation infrastructure which also doesn’t require tech that hasn’t been perfected yet.
The last mile problem is much much bigger for cars. Where do u park ur cars? U need large parkings then. Parking spaces need a lot of space. Space that can be used for more housing, more commercial, more parks, etc.
The best last mile solution in this case is walking and biking. Walking doesn’t require parking. Bicycles do, but they require very very less parking space.
Also, due to the non motorized nature of these two modes of transport, the public stays healthier, thus drawing less resources from the public health infrastructure.
I could go on and on, but here’s like 90% of ur answer for the last mile problem.
Allow me to throw in a viable alternative: bus
Relying on buses that get stuck in traffic isn’t great
I disagree. My city has a dedicated bus lane that essentially goes from one end to the other, and if more people were using the bus, well, that’s even less traffic.
Hey the Queens Quay streetcar. I recognize it even though the pic is slightly deep fried.
As far as transit goes, the TTC should NOT be the model to follow. It’s better than nothing, but there’s better.
OP probably doesn’t know you need to wait 1h in line just to board it out of Union evening rush hour. And that’s assuming it doesn’t get stuck in snow, traffic, crash, etc. Toronto needs subways, and better optimized roads, not more streetcars.
I have literally walked faster than streetcars on multiple occasions!
Does train come pick me up and drop me off again ?
Gotta love dem rural trains.
Yes. There even used to be a robust public transportation infrastructure here where I live in South Dakota, long ago before everything became so car-centric. Buses and trains. I used to ride the bus to Minnesota to work in the fields. Get off my lawn!
Don’t believe the people who say we can’t sustain it. That’s their carbrain talking. It’s been done before. We just need to prioritize it.
Well no. I live rural. So rural we don’t have pedestrian walkways or anything.
I’m not anti public transportation. I’m pro pro pro. However trains don’t help rural. Rural get shafted on most things. No broadband no sewage no bin pick up. You have to drive.
I fucking hate driving. I would happily sit on any number of vehicles. It’s just not feasible unfortunately.
The country I currently reside in has no trains. Relies on planes which is beyond infuriating
I have family who live in rural Norway, and yeah – they drive to the train station. Still a big improvement over having to drive all the way to work or the store.
And yeah-- I’m talking about small tiny towns having buses and trains. Look at a map of South Dakota. That’s the state where I live, and we had them.
Only works if the costs is less. No point driving to station to pay triple what driving would get you and take longer
The costs of driving aren’t directly on the driver, but are the sprawl, environmental problems, expensive infrastructure, and deaths caused by car use.
Direct per-trip costs can be fixed with government subsidies (which have been heavily given to cars in the past) and travel times can be fixed with higher quality infrastructure and transit-oriented development.
The point is that you are part of a larger community, and it’s appropriate to behave as such. People ride public transport every day, and you can too. You’re not better than anyone else, and if you have rural acreage, you can certainly afford the time and money to support the type of infrastructure that benefits the majority as well as our planet.
Fuck are you on about?
There’s no public transportation here. I’d need to drive an hour to the nearest city. In which case I no longer require the public transportation.
Why would I be better than anyone? I’m worse off not better.
I have more money and time because I live rural.
What are you even trying to say ?
There’s no public transportation here.
Congratulations, you’ve identified the problem! Therefore, we need infrastructure, which is what I’ve been saying all along!
Why would I be better than anyone? I’m worse off not better.
You would literally be on the same transportation as everyone else. Poor you.
I have more money and time because I live rural.
Unless you are a farmer or similar, it is far more sustainable to live in a town. Living in an expansive rural acreage or in a suburb is a luxury that we shouldn’t cater to.
What are you even trying to say ?
I’m saying public transportation in rural areas is feasible, and something that is sustained in many parts of the world. There’s nothing about your situation that makes it so it wouldn’t work for you. You’ve just been heavily propagandized by capitalists who profit from our current broken system.
Honestly, the government should reclaim the land you live on, for good money and after building better population centers of course. Not that people couldn’t move back after some amount of time had passed, but i doubt most would if they felt what it was like to live in an actual civilized society for once and being that rural should be a major outlier.
I live rural too, so I’d know how poorly that’d go over with the hicks, but i do genuinely think a restructure of society like that is necessary.
Show me a map from any year that serviced rural south Dakota, picking up rural passengers at their property lines
picking up rural passengers at their property lines
Lol what? Unless you are disabled, you don’t need someone to pick you up at your property line. That’s carbrain entitlement. Walk to the train station/bus depot, cycle, or drive a modest car that short distance (the latter being exactly what some of my family do, who live in a more developed nation).
I do agree we also need to expand infrastructure to accommodate disabled people, though. That’s a separate issue.
The point is, we can have a train and bus system here. It’s been done in the past. Personally, I’d welcome it. Owning a car is such a pointless and unsustainable money sink.
Mojojo’s comment
Mojojo has a chronic case of carbrain. They’re part of the problem.
Don’t be Mojojo.
Edit: Mojojo’s comment doesn’t even address any of what I said to you. Yo, what???
"Does train come pick me up and drop me off again ?
Gotta love dem rural trains. "
Most routes do not run just 1 way.
If it’s nationalized, yes.
rural trains are amazing, on the branch line near me there are stations in the middle of nowhere with like maybe 50 people tops within bike distance of the station, it’s absolutely idyllic.
imagine living like that and being able to just step into a moving building that takes you to a big city full of amenities, it’s so good.
Yep, when people start talking about how rural trains make no sense or are impossible, I immediately think of where my relatives live in Norway. It’s so nice, and I’m jealous.
They’re great, I’ve lived in Europe. But they just don’t exist yet most places.
We’ve actually regressed in my little US state (South Dakota). My grandma used to talk about taking the train to some little towns. We also used to have more buses and taxis when I was a kid. My parents used to put us on a bus in the summer so we could work in the fields (which I know doesn’t sound like stellar parenting, and I’m not recommending it, but it really was a different time).
it’s not “yet”, it’s “anymore”.
most of the west used to have rural trains basically everywhere, even northern sweden was full of lines. Then around the 60’s we all got rid of them.
The dream
We must stop all progress until we can come up with a solution that includes less than 20% of the population.
My problem with most transportation policy is that it usually involves tax penalties. A lot of people can’t afford to move to the city. Making cars more expensive as an incentive just creates human suffering in rural areas.
Sweden has hourly trains that go through 1-2k population mountain villages that connect to all the major cities.
100% possible if the political will is there.
And when it isn’t ?
Get it there.
There was a young man who said, “Damn!
It is borne upon me that I am
An engine that moves
In predestinate grooves;
I’m not even a bus, I’m a tram.”Who are these “some people”. I don’t think it’s a majority. In fact most comments I see say the opposite.
Corporate propaganda is the “some people.” Electric/self-driving cars are more profitable than fixing or expanding public transit.
Lemmy faces selection bias, of course most people here are more partial towards public transit
But the general public is more mixed, and the technosphere of silicon valley etc very much favours the former.
Lol at Lemmy being a representation of the public.
Are you assuming that i would only be talking about Lemmy comments?
It’s what you hear a lot of on more mainstream media.
It already takes me an hour to get to work from my rural home. You wanna make it two?
Which is exactly why we need to build better public transit?
Would that mean faster buses through the village?
Maybe spend a few billion on a high-speed rail though the countryside to my little place?
What harm could that do?
No need for HSR if ur place doesn’t need the capacity provided by HSR. But yes, buses are definitely the best option in this case. Better infrastructure for buses would mean this:
- More frequent buses
- Higher quality buses and bus stops
- Faster travel: Due to a combination of three factors:
- More frequent buses, better buses and bus stops would mean that more people take buses. This means more efficient use of space on roads. Which means less traffic. Which means faster buses.
- Better bus infrastructure could include changes to roads themselves, like bus lanes, separate roadways with right of way to buses and so on. This would make sure that buses intermingle with road traffic as less as possible. These solutions are most suitable to inner cities rather than highways connecting cities and towns of course. Regardless, this makes buses faster. This is often referred to as “BRTs”, i.e., “Bus Rapid Transit”. Functionally, this is the closest you get to a metro without building a metro.
- Better bus infrastructure would mean changes to stuff like traffic signalling, buses themselves and so on. Changes like traffic signals turning green when a bus approaches a crossing would mean that buses never have to stop at red lights, thus saving a lot of time. Also, changes to buses could include stuff like bike stands at the front and back, which can increase the effective range of buses BY A LOT.
Sooo yeah… Building and maintaining bus infrastructure is tremendously cheap in the grand scheme of things, especially when compared to private cars and the infrastructure required to sustain private cars.
Also, buses come in different sizes, meaning that no matter how small your town is, there can always be frequent bus service that is also efficient at the same time.
That’s a bim!
Public transport is good, but has it’s own problems. You can’t bring the sort of goods you can with your own transport (or you have to rely on the store to do it, which still leaves the problem of cars on the road). They become superspreader events during flu/covid season. If you have to take care of an elderly family member, they may have problems getting on them and finding seats, which can become a health hazard for them. Scooters have also been banned from some forms of public transport due to the risk of poor quality poorly maintained lithium batteries exploding, which still leaves the last mile problem.
This is a problem of design. You’re saying PT is bad because cities make shit choices.
Sure! But like I’d happily pay the 2k per year I pay to maintain a car + amortised cost of a car + insurance to have better PT with like room for cargo and shit. Also not like nearly die every day because of insane tailgaters et al. and free up road space for housing or parks or whatever.
This was a post about “urban traffic problem”, so cities are sort of a given for the context. I’m actually saying public transport is good, but has its own problems.
my mom brings home our christmas tree from her SO’s forest every year, takes it on the train and on the bus without issue.
deleted by creator
1 delivery vehicle delivering packages to many addresses does not still leave the problem of cars on the road, it can make it a lot smaller if people then cycle walk and us PT more.
That’s one of the points I made, yes. So no, it does not still leave the problems of cars on the road, but also, it does it’s just that it’s a lot smaller? Getting mixed signals there…
But if you do want to talk about that one footnote in parenthesis, “one vehicle making the deliveries” involves gas guzzling trucks and vans (which are still not trains, the whole hail mary of this thread) who set of using the vehicle capable of carrying all pending transportation orders, meaning horrible gas mileage, and still requires that road space to exist, not really freeing it up for “housing or parks or whatever”.
Even then, it still has benefits, but comes with its own set of problems, like having to delay and schedule receiving the goods at a later time than when you could have received them, having to pay additional shipping costs (adds up for frequent periodic orders), or having each store cater to their own profit maximized shipping solution instead of coming up with a universal delivery one for that urban environment. It is far from the solved alternative you make it out to be.
Me a guy in infrastructure: hahahahaha… oh wait you were serious. Let me laugh even harder now.
Engineering is to a great extent accepting the givens. Cost disease grows more rampant by the year without showing any signs of letting up. There are ways to fix that but we aren’t going to do them. The reason why people are considering solutions like this is because better solutions aren’t possible any more.
