Meanwhile most people: the answer to who is the bad guy is:
Both. Both is good
Ah yes, the millions of innocent palestianians that had their homeland taken from them and are now being bombed are literally just ask guilty as the people doing the invading and bombing. Very enlightened take.
The problem with saying “both” is that there are 5 groups involved, maybe even 6.
- The Israeli government
- The Israeli people
- The West Bank Palestinian government (Fatah)
- The Gaza Strip Palestinian government (Hamas)
- The Palestinian people (arguably separate groups to account for differing levels of suffering and oppression)
I’d agree that “both” are bad if you mean the Israeli government and Hamas, though to different degrees at different times. I’d agree “both” are victims if you mean the Israeli and Palestinian peoples, though undoubtedly the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are the most victimized right now and in general.
Ah sorry, just made a comment outlining the parties that I am talking about lol, clearly stating it’s Hamas and the Israeli government
Do you also make this distinction between the government of nazi germany and the citizens of nazi germany?
Absolutely.
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Yeah, don’t you? Same with every other government. They are rarely a good representation of their people.
My take is very simple:
-are they actively targeting civilians? If yes then bad:
-Israeli government- yes, then bad. -Hamas- yes, then bad.-are they following what is recognised as international law (namely the 1993 Oslo agreements):
-Israeli government- while they formally recognise Palestine as a state, they have consistently undermined the Palestinian authority and occupied much of the West Bank without a plan for either self governance or leaving, settling parts of the West Bank aggressively, therefore bad. -Hamas- does not recognise Israel in any way and openly calls for its destruction, therefore bad.I don’t think Hamas soldiers are usually in uniform and Hamas bases don’t have signs saying “Hamas military base” on them. They couldn’t exist if they were easily distinguishable from civilians. Naturally Israel abuses this natural opposition to their oppression by escalating the oppression.
They are essentially a state (as they do control Gaza with state powers) and as such, they must abide by the rules of war just like any other
Not how the Geneva Conventions work but okay
I think the only reason Israel should exist today is that people already live there and it would be a mistake to force them out and create more displacement. That being said, Israel, a supremacist ethnostate, should never have had the right to exist… You shouldn’t exist if you have to build your fucking country on the mass graves of the native people, and then you are so deep in this shit you have to develop tech to be able to apartheid them all behind walls and systems and bullets, starving and dying. No, an entity like that should not deserve to exist. I still have hope that some reasonable Israelis will turn this all around, and Israel will stop being a genocidal mission.
You shouldn’t exist if you have to build your fucking country on the mass graves of the native people
So where do you draw the line? Most - if not all - countries were created with bloodshed at some point. People in my country moved into the area around ~1200 years ago and I don’t think the locals welcomed the new inhabitants with open arms. So should we move back then? What about the people who now line in the place we (at least assume) to had come from?
So should we move back then?
Read the first sentence of the comment you just replied to.
Yeah, but at that point you just rant how all these states should disappear without any idea what to do with the people in them.
Hmmmm, sounds to me like you ignored my first sentence. Read it again. I don’t think they should go anywhere. Doesn’t make what they did right though.
For Israeli settlers, there is still a window of time to kick them the fuck out given as to how they go into people’s homes with the blessings of Israeli police and IDF and kick the residents out…
You shouldn’t exist if you have to build your fucking country on the mass graves of the native people, and then you are so deep in this shit you have to develop tech to be able to apartheid them all behind walls and systems and bullets, starving and dying. No, an entity like that should not deserve to exist.
Just for curiosity, are you American?
Because you literally just described America.
No. You’ll be shocked, I’m Palestinian.
For that you know awfully little about the history of the area. Or you just love propaganda.
Yeah I fucking love all that “propaganda” from HRW and the UN.
The country Israel was founded by people who are native to the land. Perhaps read up on the history of the area, because what you are writing is factually incorrect.
There was no country before and the area was populated by multiple different groups of people. Those people wanted to found countries in the area. There is war(s) regarding where the borders of these countries should be.
That’s how almost every country in the world came into place. The only difference here is that it is taking place in a time when the whole world is watching in real time and people are much more globally mobile.
I know it’s much easier and comfortable to paint a black and white picture of the situation, but it is just false…
If they were native to the land, how do you explain Deir Yasdin or the Nakba?
??? What does that have to do with the fact that Israel is a country founded for people who are native to the land?
If they are native to the land, why did they have to massacre (Deir Yassin) and ethnically cleanse (the Nakba) the other natives? 🤔
I’m asking because Deir Yassin is the massacre that eventually convinced my grandmother’s family to leave their hometown and become refugees in Jordan, especially after the men in the village tried to fight off these “natives to the land” because they were attacking and killing everyone. Deir Yassin convinced Palestinians that they couldn’t trust these “natives”, since they don’t stick to their treaties, and go around marauding.
You missed actively using civilian infrastructure for military purpose, actively using civilians as shields, targeting of civilians, and hostage taking as international laws broken by Hamas.
Yes I know, I restricted myself fairly, but outlining war crimes committed by Hamas would’ve been too long a list. Namely, not properly identifying combatente
It’s funny because the IDF did all of this just last week. All those Palestinians illegally detained in unknown locations: they are hostages, in every practical sense of the word.
Straight up lies as usual. Don’t you get tired of making stuff up?
You’re right, they haven’t used anyone as a human shield yet after Israel had to make it illegal to do since it was a normal occurrence. Otherwise they did the rest it seems.
Does a historical claim hold weight over a long established later claim? No-one knows the answer to this one - how old must a claim be before it becomes invalid?
Are restrictive religious laws ok? I think the resounding answer is always “mine are, but theirs aren’t”, which really is just a recipe for war eternal. They never strike me as ok, because most of them focus on making a group of people “the other”.
Is murdering civilians to achieve military objectives ok? No, it isn’t, everyone knows that really - it’s an idea that belongs in the middle ages and should have been left there.
I don’t think I could join the Israel vs Palestine camps (both governments are shit - both are out for genocide), I think I prefer the camp filled with people who just want an end to the conflict, people who live on both sides of those ill defined borders.
What does everyone who matters (the people living through this hell) really want? They want their lives back, the ability to be themselves, and carry out their traditions undisturbed. Most of all, they want the killing and persecution to stop, and the time to mourn their losses.
How do we do that? Put the guns down, stop the bombardments and bombings, have each side treat the wounded of the other side, and then figure out the rest without starting the killing again.
Hamas isn’t a government, it’s a terrorist group. It’s also horrible to Palestinians and it undermines the actual government of Palestine, the Palestinian Authority. There was just an article posted to Lemmy that talked about how Likud (the far right party governing Israel that’s undermined peace talks multiple times) helped fund Hamas.
Oppressed people can’t “put their guns down” because they’re being exterminated. Only the oppressor can stop. If you’re really against both Hamas and Israel, then you believe that Israel needs to stop committing genocide. If you’re pretending “both sides” are equal, then you’re playing the same game Trump said when he equated people waving Nazi and confederate flags witj people trying not to be killed by people waving Nazi and confederate flags by saying “both sides are to blame.”
Pretending oppressed people have as much power as their oppressors is the game oppressors use to perpetuate their oppression.
Or, I’m looking at people rather than nations, which is the correct way to view any conflict.
My argument is that both sides put their guns down, because that’s how a war stops. Both sides treat the injured of the other side, since that is how empathy is built and denial is eliminated. Homes can be rebuilt, and land disagreements can be settled, but nothing will bring the dead back; there are some things that cannot be undone. These are the things we need to stop FIRST.
“POLARIZATION: Extremists drive the groups apart. Hate groups broadcast polarizing propaganda. Motivations for targeting a group are indoctrinated through mass media” ( http://genocidewatch.net/genocide-2/8-stages-of-genocide/)
The people of both sides are already doing that. I’m not sure what the proposal is here. In what hospitals would the Palestinians treat the injured of the other side? The ones that are being levelled by the IDF? With what medical supplies? The ones that are denied to them by the IDF? Palestinians are being exterminated. The people of Israel needs to overthrow Likud and hold them accountable. The people of Israel need fight their government to stop this. The Palestinians, for the most part, are also victims of the same thing.
The US needs to stop supporting Likud, and US citizens need to riot until the government listens to them. Everyone needs to stand together to stop governments from doing this, absolutely. But we need to be realistic about who has power and who actually can take action.
Hamas is the government of Gaza. Claiming otherwise is spreading misinformation.
The government of Gaza is currently holding hostages. The government of Israel has said it’s not stopping until those hostages are released.
To claim the Palestinians have no power is spreading misinformation. They absolutely have the power to stop this war.
None of this is to say what Israel’s government is doing is acceptable.
I think I prefer the camp filled with people who just want an end to the conflict, people who live on both sides of those ill defined borders.
I agree, but it’s also arguably more complicated than this. I follow a DUI lawyer on youtube who happened to be in Israel (and fairly close to a crossfire) when the war started. He gave this very real and very neutral explanation of things those of us outside the region often miss, covering his upbringing in Israel.
Basically, he said, the most common opinion you can hear from either side is “the only good OTHER SIDE is a dead OTHER SIDE”. From the mouths of civilians, from children. They believe it because their parents told them it and because they’ve lived through conflict that corroborates it.
To want peace at all costs, but to still instinctively dehumanize the other side is a very complicated place to be. And you can understand why both sides’ civilians might feel that way about the other. So many people feel a desire for justice, but to both countries, justice is the other side being punished.
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When you describe a group of people as a rabid dog and when you describe mass murderers as having more of a good reason for it, you need to stop and rethink your entire view. Something in your reasoning is just morally broken.
There are plenty of good people. There are plenty of non-combatants in both Palestine and Israel who really wish the violence could end tomorrow, and they really wouldn’t follow it up with other attacks. You know how I know? Because there’s people like that in every country in the world. Of course some people are way into violence, but many other people just want to live their lives. And we all agree that it’s difficult to make that happen.
You wrote that in Palestinian culture many people would happily sacrifice their own life just to kill some Israelis. Surely that’s true for some people. But which is worse, sacrificing your own life to take out an enemy, or sacrificing your friend’s life to take out an enemy? They’re both pretty horrible, and I see no need to go into any further analysis, except to remark that this is where your reasoning leads.
I feel you showed great restraint by not putting reason in inverted commas there.
What’s Israel’s superior justification, and where’s any evidence of restraint beyond keeping things juuuust below the threshold where the US will be forced to withdraw support from it’s regional toehold?
This discussion happened between me and a Zionist just the other day
them: What would you do if 1200 of your people were butchered?
me: 17k of my people have been butchered by Israel
them: “As a Palestinian, you don’t have any criticism of Hamas ? Oct 7th was just an “act of resistance” according to your view?”
I wonder how people like that would treat me if they met me on the public street.
Don’t leave us hanging, what is your answer to their last question?
I’m highly critical of Hamas and have lost many friends over it.
I am always curious, why does Egypt not want to help Palestinian refugees? Or even allow then to travel through?
Good question. The official position is that they would not be able to go back to gaza once the war ended. And therefore they would be helping israel in displacing the palestinian people of their lands.
Plus, i suspect no one really wants 2M “permanent” refugees. On election season no less.
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They can, and they do: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/19/egypt-rafah-crossing-aid-enter-gaza-why-closed-israel-us-egypt?trk=public_post_comment-text
Dont quote me on this, but i think the majority (all) of aid comes through egypt.
Thing is, it “has” to have the supervision of Israel or else they would whine about weapons in trucks.
Because the guy who runs Egypt is a dictator. Guess who appointed him?
Because then in 5 years israel would start attacking and creating “buffer zones” within Egypt until Egypt ceases to exist.
Israel is like the Nazi’s in every single way. They want to keep expanding their lebensraum and genocide everyone who isn’t of their race.
Deplacing the Palestinians would only worsen the problem because they are not the problem, israel is.
“…and genocide everyone who isn’t of their race…”
What race is that?
Zionists were using that phrase before Israel was even a state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea?wprov=sfla1
Me IRL
I support an elected government with secular state thank you
