“Systematic reviews of controlled clinical studies of treatments used by chiropractors have found no evidence that chiropractic manipulation is effective, with the possible exception of treatment for back pain.[8] A 2011 critical evaluation of 45 systematic reviews concluded that the data included in the study “fail[ed] to demonstrate convincingly that spinal manipulation is an effective intervention for any condition.”[10] Spinal manipulation may be cost-effective for sub-acute or chronic low back pain, but the results for acute low back pain were insufficient.[11] No compelling evidence exists to indicate that maintenance chiropractic care adequately prevents symptoms or diseases.[12]”
Anything a chiropractor can do that will actually help, a PT can do better. They’ll also teach you what exercises to do to prevent needing to see them again.
A chiropractor will just tell you to come to them more often, and take more of your money over time.
You can save a lot of money by just going to a masseuse instead of a chiropractor. People attribute the positive feeling they get from attention to well being improvements, and pseudoscience practitioners certainly achieve that at a premium price. If it’s attention you want, get a massage, otherwise go to a PT and get some real help.
Also I think a massage therapist will tend to be more educated on the muscles and how they work together than a masseuse
A massage therapist tends not to provide the “extras” that you can get from a strip mall masseuse.
I come for the extras.
Just make sure they’re not a cop first.
That would not be a happy ending to the story.
Depends on for whom. A good bust makes nearly everybody happy.
I don’t care, I’ll come on a cop.
In some places and depending on the specific details, the punishment for that offense wouldn’t include jail time. Instead of a crime, it’s just a penile code violation.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
I swear, your honor, he just bent down and kissed my bottom!
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Or after the extras.
That’s what they’re for
My wife, bless her innocent heart, still doesn’t get this. She’s been to every strip mall, Groupon massage studio in the area and is constantly like “wow, I can’t figure out why these $75/hr massages are so hit or miss.”
I have tried explaining to her that it’s because she doesn’t have a penis, but she still doesn’t get it.
How prevalent are these? I’ve always wanted to try but can never tell which is a safe place to approach
I can’t believe I know this, but RubMaps used to (might still be?) a thing. If you looked at the outside of them on Google Maps you could very quickly start to pick up on the patterns among the listed locations.
do you want happy ending?
yes, heck you know what, lets have a happy middle too… and a happy beginning… ok make the whole thing happy please!
As a massage therapist that used to work in education (director of education at a massage school and taught anatomy/pathology) results will vary wildly across the States. The majority of states only started licensing in the last 10-15 years, and of course requirements for licensing and supervision varies. Some schools teach enough anatomy to get their students to pass the tests, then focus their time teaching spa type massage (aromatherapy, wraps, hot stones, etc.) or energy work. Not saying there’s anything wrong with that, but it serves a different purpose.
There are definitely schools that exist that focus more on therapeutic/rehabilitative work, but even then the challenge is finding a therapist with an up to date approach who doesn’t buy the old school “no pain no gain” who kicks the shit out of you. Massage shouldn’t hurt. But if your find the right therapist for you, they’re worth their weight in gold.
Massages should hurt if your body is full of deep tissue knots like mine is. My rhomboids and forearms are basically just knots most of the time.
But that’s largely on me for not stretching.
Yup. At my first massage appointment, before I even got on the table, she told me where I hurt and why I was hurting that way. And she was 100% correct.
Just FYI, the generally preferred term these days is “massage therapist.” Last I heard “masseuse” and “masseur” (the masculine version) have an implicit sexual connotation that “massage therapist” does not. Unless that’s what you were recommending instead of chiropractic, in which case carry on!
Also it has a more professional connotation. RMTs go to school and work hard to be qualified and capable of their jobs.
As my sister who is a MT always said: “A massage therapist gives you a massage, a masseuse gives you a happy ending.”
This. I’m seriously considering finding the money for an at home sauna. Get my muscles nice and warm and relaxed and then stretch the shit out of them.
then stretch the shit out of them.
Just be careful. There is such a thing as over stretching. I fucked up my knees stretching after a hot yoga session and could barely walk for a couple of years.
Everything in moderation.
One of the worst overstretches I did was in a pool. With my body weight canceled out I could get into deeper stretches, like by putting my leg up on the edge of the pool. Afterwards I realized I’d overdone it. lol
That must have sucked/hurt 🤕 … But it sounded like a real funny story for some reason…
Mi bad…
You don’t have to tell me anything, seriously. I have fucked up my back no less than 3 times. The last time I fucked my back up was about a year ago and I busted my shoulder at the same time. My back is still tight and off in a few places and while my shoulder isn’t at 100% I have like 90% of rom back and more to come as I keep working on it. I have and continue to fix myself all without the help of a pt.
I had hoped that a line like that wouldn’t be taken at face but I guess the Amelia Bedelias are making there way from reddit.
I would also point out that any pro quackocracker post you see here is the one time they might have helped someone just out of random chance, those people are loud and tell everyone how great their quackocracker is. Its simple confirmation bias, they have a sample size of one, themselves, this is not how data works.
I go to a sports physiotherapy group. Much better results when the goal is to help me recover so I don’t need to come to them.
You can also search out a GP that is a DO Instead of an MD in the US.
They still learn osteopathic manipulation, which is a broader form of manipulation not limited to the spine that helps with stretching-type exercises. But they are certified (often with the same board exams even) and licensed on par with MDs. Many clinics have DOs among their providers.
Important caveat of “in the US”. In most countries, osteopaths are basically the same as chiropractors. In the US, DO licensing is the same as MD licensing, so they do have to learn real science and medicine in addition to the fake science and medicine of osteopathy. Personally, I wouldn’t aim for a DO as my Dr., but if I already had one that I liked, I wouldn’t worry about it too much. Osteopathic schools are easier to get into than medical schools, cause we have more people that want to get their MD than we have schools to teach them, so plenty of those people become DO’s.
This is incorrect. You are likely confused due to the fact that the names of the fields are similar.
Osteopathy /=/ osteopathic
I’ll discuss the fields as the are in the US, as I am not aware of how they are in other countries.
- Chiropractors go through their own degree programs through their own colleges.
- Osteopaths are homeopathic practitioners (not doctors, and they refer to their customers as clients, they are legally not allowed to refer to them as patients) and are alternative medicine practicioners.
- MDs receive a medical degree and are doctors.
- DOs receive a medical degree (an MD) as well as an additional 300+ hours of osteopathic study through their medical school to receive a second medical degree certification - this is NOT the same as the homeopathic study, this is the study of the bones, joints, nerves, and how they all work together as a whole.
The AOA only recently (2010) decided to recommend that DO’s no longer be called osteopaths. As they still practice and teach osteopathic manipulation, it’s not inaccurate to still refer to them as osteopaths. When they abandon that pseudoscience and turn completely to evidence based medicine, I’ll refer to them as DO’s. Right now, all DO’s are osteopaths, but not all osteopaths are DO’s.
It doesn’t have to do with homeopathy. Osteopathy is it’s own pseudoscience alternative medicine and it is what they’re trained as a side to their medical training. They do act like this training somehow makes them more holistic than MDs, but that’s been proven to be largely false and they generally do not use that osteopathic manipulation in their practice.
Some non-doctor osteopaths might use homeopathy, but the basic theory of what osteopathy is remains pseudoscience even when it’s done by DOs.
Osteopathy = Osteopathic.
Thank you, I didn’t realize that homeopathy was not general term - I thought it was a generalized term for alternative medicine that wasn’t eastern medicine, but I was wrong.
Anyway, I do still have some things to clear up for you.
You still seem to think that DOs are spending their 300+ additional hours after the MD learning the pseudoscience, which isn’t the case. Those hours are spent with neurologists, orthopedics, physical therapists, and other fellowships and residencies only provided by the MEDICAL SCHOOL - which would absolutely not allow any pseudoscience within their walls. Yes, they might do very minor manipulation in their practices, but it’s what’s learned through neurologists, physical therapists, or orthopedists, etc. (in addition to their MD residenciea just like the MDs in family practice, OB, surgery, dermatology, oncology, etc). The goal of a DO is to treat a patient as the sum of their parts rather than symptomatically.
Patient-first rather than symptom-first. (DO vs MD)
Osteopathic rather than allopathic. (DO vs MD)
-If I go to an MD with an earache, I’ll have my ear checked out and maybe find nothing wrong but walk out with Prednisone to see if it helps. Prednisone does nothing but make me gain water weight.
-If I go to a DO with an earache, I’ll have my ear checked out and maybe find nothing wrong, but he might think since there was nothing obvious that maybe there’s a nerve pinched near the top of my neck so he’ll have me stand to look at my posture and notice that I’m standing awkwardly with my hips not level, checks out my ankles and realizes I’ve started to lean in on one of my ankles and writes an Rx for a custom insole and exercises to strengthen my ankle. The issue with the ankle was causing my hips to lean, which caused my back to curve the other way to compensate, which pinched a nerve in my neck, which caused an earache. Wear the insole while strengthening the ankle, earache goes away.(This is a true story of something that happened to me, not an example of every experience with a MD or a DO)
There is nothing precluding and MD from also searching for the underlying cause, but allopathic medicine looks to treat symptoms.
Osteopathy is 100% the movement of muscles and bones and not taught in medical school.
Osteopathy /=/ osteopathic
What you’re describing is a pseudoscience. It’s a pseudoscience that IS allowed in osteopathic medical schools because, you guessed it, they’re osteopathic. It is not evidence based medicine. I understand that DOs proclaim thatt they are more holistic than other practitioners. As I said, studies have shown that is not the case.
https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.7556/jaoa.2014.166/html
https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M22-3723Edit: To be clear, I’m an RN, and we’re taught a whole hell of a lot more pseudoscience than DO’s are.
I have to ask: what do you think “holistic” means? You’ve said twice (once in each comment I’ve know replied to) that DOs “think they are more holistic than others”
Do you think it relates to holy?
It doesn’t. It means that’s parts of something are interconnected and can only be considered in reference to the whole of itself.
Which is the key difference between osteopathic and allopathic medicine, so of course they believe they are more holistic.I’m not sure what you were trying to prove with those links. The first explains that while evidence based medicine uses statistics, it is a specific way of using data to determine clinical care - that it can determine the best route of care for the largest group of people that works most of the time, which is great for most people most of the time…but what about when you fall outside that group (my addition - yes, they could try the second choice when the first doesn’t work or the third next, but that takes time and suffering). Whereas DOs consider the the first choice option as well as the outside options by evaluating everything. Consider the story above of my earache. That’s what the link was describing. I’m not sure what you got from it, or what that has to do with being holistic (though considering outside treatment options that might involve other parts of the body would be considered holistic). The thing is, statistics are great to describe how a population reacts to treatments, not an individual. Appendectomies have a 95% success rate, but that doesn’t mean that you have a 95% chance of surviving one. But evidence based treatments are based on the success rates, not the individual - that’s where the patient-first idea come into play, DOs consider the patient as a whole rather than only the statistics when the statistics don’t line up with the patient.
The second link says that healthcare costs between MDs and DOs are similar. Neither is more expensive, neither is less expensive. I’m not sure what that has to do with being holistic (either the actual definition or whatever you may think it means).
You’re making the claim that what I described previously is pseudoscience because a DO saw that my ankle has turned inward and offered ankle strengthening exercises. Ankle strengthening exercises aren’t pseudoscience, there is data behind it - the idea that it could cause ear pain due to the other issues it causes certainly would not be common, but it is explainable. Pseudoscience is something that uses no explanatory reasoning and avoids peer review. DOs routinely publish their findings.
That’s why I specifically said in the US. You have to be careful, though, some DO schools are easier to get into than some MD schools but there are also DO schools that are harder to get into than some MD schools (MD schools in the Caribbean for example) so unless you are being hyper vigilant about which school your GP went to, you’re still just relying on the fact that they all passed the same or equivalent boards anyway.
Actually, outside the US, the DO training is 7 years, same as a medical doctor. I chose a DO for my primary care doctor because they have papatory skills (i.e. they actually touch someone) that regular doctors refer out.
Really depends on the country, though. Many countries don’t have “DO” as a profession cause they only need one type of evidence based medical degree, so anyone who does osteopathy is basically equivalent to a chiropractor or other type of witch doctor.
I can definitely respect the perception that they interact with you more, and I’m glad you have a doctor that works well for you.
In my corner of the world, most CPs are also PTs. Or rather the other way around: they use chiropractic as one of many therapeutic means in their portfolio. I have to say, I very much appreciate this approach, as it relives the initial pain/discomfort but also addresses the underlying problem.
This is a great point. My MiL is a chiropractor (a non-quacky one), and she incorporated a lot of PT into her practice. Additionally, I read a couple years ago that PTs are beginning to incorporate the good things from chiro (whatever they are. I’m not a doctor) into their own practice.
A roundabout way of saying that we learned some things from chiro, but PT was always the future.
I see my chiropractor once ever couple of years, I do most my own chiropractic stuff myself so I only visit her when I can’t deal with it. She knows I’m not gonna come back for a mother year or 3 so she doesn’t even tell me to book.
A chiropractor will just tell you to come to them more often,
If you are going to one that does, you are going to the wrong one. There are a lot of quacks in professions and some of them are AMA licensed doctors too.
I was very skeptical of them until a friend recommended one he personally knew for my painful shoulder - he even offered to pay for the visit if it didn’t help. I was amazed when I walked out of the office completely pain free.
Many professional sports athletes seek out massage and chiro with good results because they cannot afford miss events and can’t test positive for the drugs that many conventional doctors would push.
There is a place for all avenues of remedies depending on the problem. Incompetents can be found in all professions. That said, is far too easy for a poser to set themselves up as a chiropractor.Incompetents can be found in all professions
seems like thats the crackocracker industry problem, they simply dont have any standards. I’ll grant you there may be some crackocrackers who actually have some skills… maybe, but if a patient has to go to 20 of them to find “that one good one”, then that industry is garbage
A lot of it can be done at home without a pt. Foam rollers and yoga mats are your friend. Even better if you can get a second pair of hands that know how to pop a back properly.
Physical therapists have definitely taught me reparative exercises that I would never in a million years have thought of on my own. PT is a god damned miracle drug.
I’m not saying that they aren’t and can’t be helpful. What I’m saying is that thanks to the internet and tons of books on the subject you can do a lot of stuff yourself without spending the money or the time going to a therapist.
If you need it, you need it, but some of us can learn most of this stuff elsewhere and/or go to a pt for a few lessons and then handle the rest at home.
Also I’m talking about what a chiropractor would do, not what a pt would do. To put both on the same level is an insult to everyone who isn’t a chiropractor.
That’s not exactly the truth.
Yes, there are plenty of medical practitioners that poorly represent their profession. I’m sure you could easily apply the same logic here to PT, NP, DO, MD, etc.
What should be emphasized is that Chiropractic has heavily evolved, like any other healthcare field and there is a high degree of overlap between PT and DC methodologies. So much so, PT has lobbied for adoption of joint manipulation.
A good DC won’t limit themselves to 5 minutes visits for a quick adjustment. A good DC is evidence-based, incorporates rehab and education, and provides care to the body and systems.
A chiropractor is way cheaper than PT. Money is such a limiting factor for so many people that, while your advice is true, it has a similar vibe to telling a broke person with car trouble to just pay a mechanic to fix it. It’s the best option but I don’t blame them for trying something less expensive.
Paying money to get nothing and still have the original problem is not the inexpensive option though. These con artists are just stealing from people who can’t afford to be stolen from.
But maybe you get a bonus, worse, problem from the chiro? Got to look on the bright side : D
I stopped reading at bonus, where do I sign??
Paying money to get nothing and still have the original problem is not the inexpensive option though.
But a person can indeed fix their car effectively, and sometimes a chiropractor can help.
My mom had an issue in her shoulder that caused her to literally sob in pain and went to various regular doctors for about a year (it was a while ago so unsure of the exact timeframes). Those doctors gave her steroids which helped the pain but ultimately exacerbated the problem. She went to PT with limited success and was about to have surgery when she decided to try a chiropractor. Note that throughout this, affordability was not a concern. The first treatment helped significantly and several more treatments essentially resolved the issue whatever it was.
The foundations of chiropractic are indeed BS, but that doesn’t imply that any action taken by a chiropractor is inherently unsound. Regular medicine has a history of being wrong, it’s unlikely that in 2023 we figured it all out 100% and anything of any use is part of standard medicine.
Medicine has a history of being wrong while we learn which things work and which things don’t. Supplementary, Complementary and Alternative Medicine has a history of being wrong while its practitioners try to carve out a niche in the dark spots that we haven’t figured out yet and then dig in to fight to the death (of their patients) once their foundations are shown to be wrong. Look at homeopathy, for example: proven to be wrong time and time again but still you’ll find homeopathic products on shelves in stores across the world, even in areas with regulated markets.
Just because there are things we haven’t fully explained or discovered yet doesn’t mean that the first snake oil salesman to stake a claim on the unknown owns it. Being right takes time and new age woo-woo garbage isn’t a shortcut worth taking.
Let’s see, on one side you have conventional medicine, where doctors where doing lobotomies as recently as the late 1960s, the Sackler family who just recently pretty much literally got millions addicted to opiates and are using corporate law to shield them, while other corporations operating within the realms of conventional medicine are selling them drugs to help them shit (opiates make you constipated). Doctors tell kids they are hyper and need meth because they can’t sit still and quietly learn to become a capitalist slave.
I don’t know that conventional medicine is in a place where they can claim the moral high ground. For every BS chiropractor there are 500 BS pharmaceutical reps or paid off doctors/scientists raking in millions. Have you not seen TV lately? Are those drug ads all noble and the chiropractor is the only bad guy?
There are so many more examples of the fucked up nature of conventional medicine but somebody’s gotta smoke that pile of weed next to me.
I want to be clear - the theoretical foundations for chiropractic are BS, but some of the treatments may indeed be helpful, homeopathy is BS 100%.
I also wouldn’t blame someone for trying a cheaper option, but I WOULD blame the “cheaper option” mechanic if he sold you a $100 pair of aura cleansing fuzzy dice to keep your engine from overheating?
Then blame the healthcare system that charges people thousands of dollars for a routine doctor’s appointment.
I already do.
But I don’t see how that disaster justifies selling snake oil.
Jesus fuck, it’s like you guys are intentionally misunderstanding what I’m saying. All I’ve said is that I get why people go see chiropractors instead of doctors. I’m not advocating anything. I’m trying to have a discussion with you people and all you’ll do is set up straw men and virtue signal at them. Consider me done with this bullshit
All I’ve said is that I get why people go see chiropractors instead of doctors.
If that’s all you said, I agreed with that part. Why did you keep arguing with me?
If that’s all you said, I agreed with that part. Why did you keep arguing with me?
I see people doing this so often (on the internet especially) and it honestly baffles me. The best I’ve ever been able to rationalize it is that people are often far more interested in arguing their own points and saying what they believe than actually listening to and understanding others or having a real debate. That may be overly simplistic but it’s how I cope.
When is the last time you went to a hospital and saw a chiropractic department? When was the last time you went to a hospital and saw an orthopedics department? I have never had an MD recommend I see a chiropractor, but I have been sent to an orthopedist who sent me to PT. It worked.
That’s entirely beside the point. The question is, when was the last time you left a doctor’s office with a $40 bill? If you don’t have money to pay a doctor then you’ll never even hear their advice much less be in a position to take it.
Which is completely irrelevant to the legitimacy of chiropractic.
PTs are also broadly not very helpful with very limited knowledge. I don’t think I’ve ever met somebody who was genuinely helped by PT, though I’m sure some of them out there take their jobs seriously.
Have you met somebody that ACTUALLY does their PT suggested exercises? I do know some people who said that PT isn’t working but then again, they don’t even follow basic recommendations.
Yes, several. Including myself for a couple different issues growing up. Eventually I learned enough about the human body to realize how useless the exercises were for the problems I was having exercised properly which finally sorted me out. I just figured I’d gotten unlucky with the two I had, but the more people I meet who’ve spent time in PT the more I realized they might not be as competent as you’d hope they’d be.
Like any profession that is service based it is “your results may vary”. My pt has helped me with exercises that have helped me get past tennis elbow and shoulder tendonitis.
Physical therapy changed my life. Not just that, but my PTs actually had knowledge and experience with my rare condition – more so than any doctor I’ve ever seen to this day. I’m sorry that hasn’t been your experience, but I assure you that there are serious PTs out there.
There are always unicorns in every profession, though I’m glad it worked out so well for you.
in my country a PT is a personal trainer, so I understand where you’re coming from if that’s what you mean. But I think in this instance PT means physiotherapist
Oh no I’m referring to physiotherapist
its not just not helpful, it can be deadly/dangerous.
strokes are triggered by these idiots.
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/01.str.32.5.1054
Thank your pointing this out. It’s not just any stroke too, it’s primarily vertebral/basilar artery distribution strokes. Those supply the brain stem which includes such necessary functions as control of breathing and consciousness. You don’t want a stroke anywhere, but particularly not there.
Some chiropractors might swing back that, you’ve only showed correlation not causation. Well, when we have no clear evidence of chiropractic neck manipulation being helpful for anything, and we have a likely very dangerous correlation, the clinical parsimony is just not there. So no one is going to run that study (give a large amount of people neck manipulation, a large amount of people no neck manipulation, and compare rates of stroke that occur afterwards), it would be very unethical, no institutional review board would ever approve that study as ethical to perform.
And it makes a lot of sense too, the vertebral artery is encased in the neck vertebrae, so violent movements of the neck vertebrae can stretch and tear those arteries. Those tears, called a dissection, can sometimes obstruct blood flow all on their own, but more often create a spot for blood clots to form that then move onward into the brain and basilar artery (since there’s turbulent blood flow and a defect in the smooth artery wall that normally prevents your blood from clotting). So please, no violent neck movements for any reason, chiropractor or otherwise.
This. My friend had a triple stroke shortly after having neck manipulation done by a standin for his usual chiropractor. Luckily he survived, but it has very much opened my eyes to how dangerous it can be.
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Yeah, I was coming in here to say similar.
Chiropractors aren’t just not effective, they are fucking dangerous.
Strokes, but also broken necks.
And some of these quacks do “adjustments” on children and infants.
Also animals, I saw a video of someone doing it to a pit bull and after he cracked the dogs neck the pit gave him the “I’m going to rip your fucking throat out” look.
It’s straight up animal abuse.
Saw that on episode of Bullshit with Penn and Teller. Anyone who would do that to a baby should be imprisoned for life.
But boy, oh boy. Say this to a believer and get ready to loose an afternoon.
loose an afternoon
That’s alright. A chiropractor can tighten up that afternoon for ya.
Indeed. I’ve got a chiropractor in my family, and I actively avoid talking to them about their work because I’ve always been convinced that it causes more harm than good. I think they finally got the hint after the 1000th time I refused their offer of an adjustment. They do some genuinely bizarre stuff beyond the standard adjustments, and talk about it like it’s proven science.
Bizarre stuff like what?
“Testing” for allergies or nutritional deficiencies by holding a sample up to your forehead and then applying downward pressure to your outstretched arms to “determine” sensitivity. Weird stuff like that.
Edit: I believe it’s called Applied Kinesiology, but that just makes it sound legit. Which it’s not.
I always knew it was pseudoscience, but damn, how is that even allowed?
how is that even allowed
lobbyists, I presume
your insurance would much rather pay for someone to touch your back than pay for someone to provide medical care.
The core tenet of chiropractics is that “life force” flows through the spine and “blocks” in that is what causes diseases/pains.
Most people think they are some kind of spine experts, while in reality it is nothing like that and more like concepts of Chi and meridians.
The thing is, a lot of chiros don’t delve into that crap, because it’s such obvious bullshit, but some do and will tell you in all sincerity that cracking that L6-8 might just kill your cancer.
In any case, stay far far away from them.
…cracking that L6-8 might just kill your cancer.
In a roundabout way, this can be true. No host, no disease.
Scorched earth medicine, effective in 100% of cases! Life’s overrated anyway.
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Chiropractic was invented by a guy who learned it from a ghost.
Who knows better about relaxing the spine than a ghost that doesn’t have one?
People should also be aware of the growing number of alternative mental therapists popping up everywhere due to the shortage in actual psychologists.
They are nothing more than life coaches with a six-month certificate in whatever-the-fuck, most of which are disguised as Masters qualifications from wherever-the-fuck.
These people, whoever-the-fuck they are, need to be regulated.
Or run out of town like Ye olde snake oil salesmen.
I sense a John Oliver episode any day about this
I re-read some of the comments in his voice, and it sounds right.
alternative mental therapists
can see this in the future for the next fascist conservative president - MY CHIROPRACTOR SAYS I’M FINE!
Chiropractors and osteopaths only exist in such large numbers because they bill less to insurers than actual doctors & hospitals. So of course insurers are going to promote these quacks because it’s cheaper than somebody going to an actual physiotherapist for treatment.
There should really be legislation that requires insurers to cover science & evidence based treatments. If someone wants woo it should be at additional expense to them, not part of a standard policy.
I am actually really torn about this one, on one hand I had one episode of back pain that lasted nearly a year, swearing up and down the whole time that chiropractors were basically witch doctors and that I would never go to one. However, when I finally caved and went to one he fixed my issue after two sessions. On the other hand, my more recent back pain was not helped after I saw my chiropractor four times. In addition, I work as a nurse and have now seen at least three patients come in with vertebral dissections, essentially a stroke, that occurred literally right after they had seen a chiropractor for neck pain. Anecdotally, I would say it isn’t worth the risk. Had I done physical therapy and used bought a tens unit the first time I’m sure it would have also fixed it without the chiro, but I was lazy
That’s the thing. Chiropractic could be considered a manual treatment which is a therapeutic modality. PTs do manual therapies that are less traumatic and are one component of the musculoskeletal issues that contribute to pain that chiro claims to heal. For most situations of acute back pain they resolve in 4 to 6 weeks so even the ineffective treatments appear to help- it’s just like treatments for the common cold.
I’m a radiologist and I too have seen multiple cases of vertebral artery dissections and stroke immediately following chiropractic manipulation. Absolutely no chance I would ever suggest someone see a chiropractor.
Someone who knows what they’re doing, and knows the limits of what they can do, can benefit certain physical conditions you may have. But they’re not doctors. They have no prescribing power. A lot of people go there thinking that they can also prescribe them a medication, which is not the case. But there’s no standards for being a chiropractor, so each one is different and some may do little to help you or even hurt you or name you and in some rare cases, kill you
It’s because what they’re doing can sometimes provide temporary relief and when it works, it works fast. An underlying cause has made some inflammation, they stretch things out, relieve some pressure in places that shouldn’t have pressure. But they’re not fixing anything, just letting your body get back up to barely functioning until the underlying cause rears it’s head again. Messed up discs are their bread and butter, but they’re just resetting the house of cards you call a back.
Actually fixing the problem is a big, expensive, scary, painful deal and (US) chiros let insurance companies off the hook for a long time.
I’m 100% on board with science and evidence based therapies but I’ve had a similar experience with back pain. I won’t let them manipulate my neck at all though.
I could share anecdotal evidence, and we know what that’s worth. But the idea that they’re all witch doctors rings false. Just as the notion that a certified physical therapist is just dandy.
All told, I’d shy away from chiropractors, especially these days.
The whole chiropractor field is based on the conjuration of a dead guys spirit to learn the techniques required to heal every disease and ailment…so ill go ahead and say every chiro is essentially a witch doctor
The adjustments cause a sympathetic nervous response that produces dopamine and seratonin. They can feel great. That’s documented and undisputed. Also undisputed is that such response is enough to heal certain injuries for certain people. The placebo effect is real. If the patient believes it works, that’s enough sometimes.
The risks of chiropracty out weigh the benefits, IMO.
If you see a youtuber calling themselves Dr. and giving out medical advice, 99% they are a chiropractor.
I met one of these in an airport bar! He introduced himself as a doctor then when I asked what specialty, he said he’s a chiropractor. “Ohhhh, so not a doctor doctor.”
He was not impressed.
I used to work with a neurologist who was formerly a chiropractor until he realized it was a bunch of quackery and decided to become a real doctor.
You mean they got a Ph.D.? ;-)
He also has a Ph.D. strangely enough.
Cool, so a real Doctor, then. ;-) I had a thing for getting letters after my name, and reached a certain goal, then gave up on the ego.
A medical doctorate would be more relevant to a neurologist.
I was searching for humorous podcasts over the weekend, and found Say More with Dr.? Sheila - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/say-more-with-dr-sheila/id1707936869 - I hope you enjoy it.
Just because he’s not a Doctor of Medicine doesn’t mean he’s not a doctor. A Doctor of Chiropractic is exactly that, regardless of its questionable merits.
There’s a distinct difference between “I’m Dr. Johnson” and “My name is John and I’m a doctor.”
At least in American English. It’s also very arrogant to introduce yourself as Dr. So and So outside of a professional setting if you’re any kind of doctor.
Not to mention he doubled down and said in Texas he’s a primary care provider that can practice medicine when I pushed back a little. He wasn’t being ambiguous, he saw himself equivalent to a MD.
I think you’re exaggerating. Quite a few of them are from the field of functional medicine, which is certainly totally legitimate.
If you have spinal or neck pain, see a licensed physiotherapist. If you have a toothache, do you go to a toothiologist to have your teeth punched? Or do you go to a doctor of dental medicine?
I mean a chiro would pop your back for your toothache.
I mean, if you want to re-shape your nose you can either go to a cosmetic surgeon, or run full speed ahead into a brick wall. Either method would accomplish the mission. One is cheaper, one is more predictable, both are potentially lethal.
Cosmetic surgeons are still surgeons though, even if the procedure is unnecessary.
typically you see your PCP first.
PCP is the one who makes referral to other physician specialists, like a pain and rehabilitation medicine physician. the PM&R’s attempt to identify the pain generators through a series of different types of injections sometimes accompanied w/ PT, OT, MT, and possibly chiro.
when those fail (conservative treatment), the Pt is referred to either a neurosurgeon or orthopedic surgeon.
It does take an entire weekend of school to get certified though.
Wow, an entire weekend!
ADHD; “oh You think that’s funny?”
No, I definitely don’t think that’s funny being allowed to ‘treat’ people after ‘passing’ a weekend seminar.
Depends on the country. In some, it’s a 3 year (standard) university degree.
I know people that swear by it which I can kind of understand if you have pain and they “pop” something and you feel better. But is it really helping if you have to keep going back?
I wonder if it’s a placebo effect. Like I go for a back massage every month or so and feel good for a few weeks but I’m fully aware it’s just muscle pain relief and not some permanent fix.
Muscle pain relief is pain relief. I don’t go to a chiropractor and I’m confident most of them are selling snake oil but I kinda view them as a next level masseuse.
If I were more comfortable with strangers touching me a massage might be nice. A chiropractor sounds like a next level up. I feel relief when I get a good back crack.
Massage therapy requires significantly more training than chiropractic does, at least in my area.
hey even if it is just the placebo if it still works and its not harmful who cares
That’s the problem, chiropractors routinely injure and kill people.
I wasn’t mentioning chiropractors in specific, although I can see how it’d come across as such. I have no idea how safe or unsafe it is
Then you should educate yourself and never visit one if you value your well being. It’s an incredibly unsafe practice. Ask any Orthopedic Surgeon how many near permanent injuries they’ve had to fix from a botched chiropractic adjustment.
I don’t believe in it, and I’ll never go, but my girlfriend does.
Yes, she has to keep going back, but when they “pop” the correct thing, she’s pain free for weeks. When she holds off going, she’s in pain and can’t sleep until she goes.
I personally don’t trust them, and it’s a lot of money for temporary relief, but I guess it kinda works? As long as you’re fine with the trade-off being fucking paralyzed when they crank your neck at the speed of sound.
Honestly, your girlfriend would be far, far better off going to a competent physical therapist. It sounds like there’s a muscular weakness that’s allowing a joint to not stay in place.
In almost all cases, people will get better long-term results by doing physical therapy rather than going to a chiropractor.
There are good chiropractors who are just trying to treat pain. 95% of them are woowoo worshipping morally bankrupt bastards. Even those guys can be helpful if what you’re looking for is short term care for an injury that’s in the process of healing.
They are not good for treating chronic pain. They may be able to help you manage your pain in the short term while you seek real treatment. But over time, your risk of injury from a chiropractor only goes up. You should limit your exposure to chiropractic ‘therapy’ to as few sessions as possible, and the second they suggest they can treat anything other than a temporary injury, find someone else. It won’t be hard they’re fucking everywhere.
Physiotherapy is generally recommended for acute (and I believe chronic) injuries by actual medical doctors, so you should generally go to that over chiros.
Oh yeah. I have chronic pain, I’ll be doing physiotherapy until the day I die.
The thing is, this study is talking about “chiropractic manipulation” which is a very specific thing. (With that clicker thingy I think?) The thing is, chiropractors tend do do lots of different therapies, like stretching and massage. So you could go to a chiropractor who performs some kind of massage which is effective at temporary pain relief.
Sounds like the chiropractor has no reason to fix her for good. It’s for-profit healthcare, and she keeps coming back. If he fixes her properly he’s going to lose income.
I will add, as someone with a connective tissue disorder, that a quick “pop” can help a subluxated/dislocated joint, but that’s something that can and should be done by an actual physician. And if someone has joints that are especially unstable (for example, bc of a connective tissue disorder), subluxations/dislocations can happen pretty regularly.
This is NOT a defense of chiropractors. And chiropractors are even more dangerous for people like me because it’s easier for them to seriously damage our joints. Go to a PCP, a rheumatologist, a physical therapist, it doesn’t matter, just go to a real doctor.
My wife went to a chiropractor weekly for the last few months of her pregnancy (the chiro office specialized in pregnancy chiropractic). It helped with managing some of the back pain she already had plus the new ones. The best way she described it was like a massage for your bones, feels good and alleviates pain in the short term but doesn’t fix anything long term
I used to see a chiro, stopped while I was pregnant after he ‘treated’ PGP. (I’m hypermobile, and pregnancy made everything ready to dislocate.) Daily pain went from 5/6 (manageable, barely) to a 9 and severe mobility limitations.
I was slowly moving, but able to move before that appointment. Could barely walk, and climbing stairs was not happening for months after.
A physio realigned everything, and I walked out of the first appointment and could take stairs again. Ended up at a specialist dealing with the aftermath of that chiros treatment.
Physiotherapy is my first stop now, and I will never set foot in a chiropractor’s office ever again.
First hit isn’t even free
I messed up my hip once… couldn’t get it right … super painful. Chiropractor did it up and was ok from then on. Who knows!
Ex had an issue. 6 treatments and she was done for good, never went back. So yes, sometimes they know what they’re doing sometimes it works.
Painting the whole profession as witch doctors? Meh, they’re not touching my neck, but I’ll listen to what they say. Educated and licensed doctors and nurses can be total fruitcakes as well.
“fruitcakes” is a slur for homosexuals. . .
They get paid a lot less per hour, have less support staff, and less equipment. Hence any given unit of time they spend with you costs less. Additionally you have more options of which to choose.
Been to a doc recently? Think of how fast they try to get you out of the room. Feels like you are begging them to please listen to you. Well a chiropractor can spend the time talking to a patient. Of course you feel better, someone heard you complain for over 30 seconds and really listened to you. And if you weren’t listened to you, you just go find another one.
Feeling listened to doesn’t mean the same thing as treatment.
It doesn’t, but it might be perceived as treatment.
Suppose you ask your GP to make it rain because your garden is dry and they tell you to go away. Then you go to a chiropractor that talks to you about your garden and then performs a complex ritual that takes a half hour or so. 2 days later it rains.
I think people are misunderstanding your comment.
I don’t think you’re suggesting this proverbial chiropractor made it rain, only that the patient felt listened to, which may make them initially view the treatment favorably. When their symptoms later get better, as they always would have, they attribute it to the chiropractic treatment, not just healing over time
Of course not but it makes you feel a bit better.
Clearly you’ve never been to a physiotherapist. It’s usually always a 30-60min appointment and they spend the entire time with you, bonus is they are actually trying to fix your problem instead of just temporary pain relief so you keep coming back forever. Not to mentioned they are board certified and didn’t get their certificate from a cracker jack box.
I have not been to a chiropractor either. I am repeating what other people told me about them.
One of my best friend’s fathers was an MD before retiring.
The cadaver he used in med school: broken neck during an “alignment” at a chiropractor’s office.
Anecdotal evidence for sure, but definitely a story that I think of whenever someone talks about going to a chiropractor.
One of my best friend’s fathers
How many fathers did they have?
Touché. Ya got me!
Don’t “patients” like die from this all the time/randomly?
They never complained afterwards.
Dead men leave no bad yelp reviews
-proverbs for the 21st century
All the time? No, but it’s happened before. Particularly with high neck manipulations that sever the spinal cord above the point where the nerves that control autonomic functions branch off from the neck (I think that’s C2?) Randomly? Also no. It’s a very predictable result of spinal manipulation. Just like lung cancer doesn’t happen ‘randomly’; if you smoke enough and long enough, it’s pretty likely, but if you don’t smoke at all it’s very, very rare.
It’s definitely happened. I think the technical term is “vertebral artery dissection.” I don’t think it’s like a daily occurrence or anything, but there is a very real risk of it happening whenever you get a chiropractic adjustment on your neck. Basically you have some delicate arteries running through your neck bones and the sharp sudden movement of certain chiropractic adjustments have the potential to rupture them. It can cause a stroke and some various other bad things that can happen when blood flow through the spine is interrupted.
That image feels designed to look like porn at a passing glance.
Everything looks like a nail when you’re a hammer.
Jackhammer grip reporting, everything looks like porn if you squint hard enough!
Can confirm. Am hammer.
They knew what they were doing.
Quick reminder that Physios and Chiros outside America face different rules for accreditation, and may not warrant similar judgement.
If chiropractic was legit people wouldn’t have to keep going back for more “treatment”.
If you’ve got a bad back, watching your posture and doing some core strength training is more effective.
Seriously. I had a friend extolling how good his experience with his chiropractor was, in response to my tale about physical therapy after a skiing accident. I ended the argument pretty quickly by asking “how often do you have to go back”
That’s a weird standard. People see physicians for years because of chronic issues.
Are you saying my brothers oncologist isn’t legit because he has to see him for life ?
Not all their techniques are garbage. DO are trained in manipulation as well. The basic premise of chiropractics is what’s at fault. I’ve seen newer chiropractics switch to more PT style of treatment. No idea if that’s in their scope but I know one who rarely adjust people. It’s mainly massage, weight lifting and body mechanics.
DO’s manipulation training is largely horseshit too, but at least they won’t cure cancer by cracking your neck.
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In all fairness, I have never seen a DO give an adjustment. I just know they are trained to do it.
Most DOs do not. They’re DO’s because the medical school they got accepted in was an osteopathic school. Not because they actually believe in it.
One point of going to a MD is to treat an existing condition. Obviously not every condition can be cured but that’s the aim. Chiropractic doesn’t even try and treat a condition, it’s all about short term relief.
For what it’s worth, as a massage therapist I’ve interviewed with some chiropractors and know plenty of other therapists who have worked for them. The number of chiropractors NOT doing some kind of shady billing or breaking some other scope of practice/ethical boundaries is shockingly small. I’m sure they exist, but in swapping stories with other therapists over almost 2 decades, I might know 1.
For example, one Chiro I interviewed with had his “program” set as patients being categorized into “back” or “neck” patients. Depending on which you were categorized into determined how many sessions (manipulation plus other therapies) per week for 8 weeks the patient would receive. After 8 weeks he would reassess. Seriously waiting 8 weeks to see if it’s helping. He knew what insurances would cover, so he cookie cuttered his whole practice. From what it looked like I don’t think people “graduated” by getting better, moreso just once they ran out of money.
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