• ProcurementCat@feddit.de
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    7 months ago

    Not sure what this instances views on “advocating violence” are, so I’m trying to explain it as non-violently as I still can:

    Americans want gun control. That’s not up for discussion. It’s an absurd majority.

    However, as long as it is “only” school children and ordinary civilians dying, Republicans will not change their stance on gun control in the slightest. The people who are responsible to fix this are the only group that is not at any risk of getting shot. They are so absurdly protected that they will never be on the receiving end of a barrel, and therefore, do not care.

    And to make matters worse, the Republicans dictating the supreme court, who will block anything that could possible address this problem, not only cannot be voted out, no, they literally have to die before they can be replaced.

    The only people who could fix the gun murder issue are the ones not dying because of guns.

    • GrayoxOP
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      7 months ago

      I dont think you are advocating for violence, but there was a shooting at a Congressional baseball game and it didnt push the Republicanw towards passing legislation to control guns at all. It is extremely disturbing how little of a fuck they give.

      • ProcurementCat@feddit.de
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        7 months ago

        Yeah I remember that. Yeah…same with the insurrection: they can only care for about an hour, then it back to business.

        That’s kinda the comment that always gets me banned: as long as Republican politicians do not actually die themselves frequently, they will not change.

        • Daft_ish@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          I think they went with, “See, it’s the democrats who are violent.”

          It’s a cruel world, friends.

    • Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      7 months ago

      Hell and that’s a Fox “News” poll, so that would likely have their own flavor of bias trying to make it as much in their own favor as possible.

      I don’t see this as advocating for violence, more as pointing out how a specific group of people only care about things that personally affect them so they currently don’t care about the issue.

      Hell the NRA cared about gun control when the Black Panthers started advocating for buying guns back in the day. Why? Because they saw it as a personal threat to their well-being.

      • ProcurementCat@feddit.de
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        7 months ago

        Hell and that’s a Fox “News” poll

        That’s why I instantly saved it to my phone. This picture has such a high value in “discussions” with gun freaks.

        I’m working for a NATO countries’ military, am a frequent poster and avid follower of NonCredibleDefense, own weapons myself, know a lot about their inner workings and history, but even I am not even remotely as crazy as those people.

        Then again, I do own several weapons but advocate that my government pass laws to take them away. Guess I’m kind of a paradoxical outlier in this matter.

        • Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          7 months ago

          I own several guns as well and I’m greatly in favor of better gun control laws. I’m a bit odd as well in that regard lol

          • GrayoxOP
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            7 months ago

            I used to be an avid gun owner till my father used one of his guns to take his life, he carried one his whole life to protect our family, and it ended up causing more harm than any mugger or home invader ever could imagine. If you ever have suicidal ideations please leave your firearms with a trusted comrade till you get help. I had ideations almost my whole adult life and thought i could resist them till the day I died, which was technically true, but not in the sense I thought. I pawned my guns, shortly after his death, and haven’t had those ideations since. The vast majority of gun deaths are self inflicted and get swept under the rug by families and the news.

            • Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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              7 months ago

              I agree whole heartedly that if you have suicidal thoughts you shouldn’t own firearms. It’s a recipe for disaster if you do. And if you have those thoughts you should seek help. There’s people in your life who will miss you dearly when you’re gone, even if you don’t think so.

              And I’m sorry for your loss, I know how hard it is when someone you care about commits suicide. I’ve known 4 people who have. Though none of them used firearms to do so I’ll never forget them.

              Personally I’ll never own pistols as I’ve had too many bad experiences with pistols. The why is a bit of a doozy.

              Trigger warning Child Abuse, Breaking and Entering, and Attempted Murder.

              On a number of occasions my dad held a pistol to my head screaming at me to tell him where his drugs that he had already done were. He did this a lot to my siblings and I before he finally got clean. I still refuse to speak with him as there’s just too much pain there. My siblings tell me he’s a lot different now, that he’s back to the way he was when they were young, but I’ve only ever known him as the abusive drug addict that he was.

              Him and some of my other relatives are why I own firearms really as a number of them have said that they “can’t wait to get the order to hunt people like me in the streets.” And one went to prison for kicking my door in to try. That was when that relative found out I was a gun owner. They didn’t get shot, we just patiently waited for the police to arrive while they sat in my entry way.

      • Truck_kun@beehaw.org
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        7 months ago

        That their local representative was anti-gun control before this shooting affected his own local area, only proves your point more. That he changed his opinion is a good thing, but too little too late.

        Very impressed that he publicly came out to accept responsibility for the Maine shooting with his previous opposition to gun control though, and is now advocating for it.

        Unfortunately, it may take several shootings in all the representatives’ and senators’ home towns that are in opposition to actually flip them (even then, it wouldn’t change many of their minds, unless it actually personally affected them), and the country shouldn’t have to suffer that. It likely will literally take a constitutional amendment to prevent the supreme court from overturning any legislation enacted (or at least stripping it down to become fluff legislation with little meaning, or effect).

    • uis@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      How mental health check is less popular, than abstract background check?

      • VerdantSporeSeasoning@lemmy.ca
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        7 months ago

        Mental health is a squishier standard. Let’s say I had depression and decided to talk to someone about it, get the help I needed to become mentally healthy again. Should that necessarily be penalized if I want to go buy a gun to go out to the range or hunting with my buddies? Should seeking help disqualify someone entirely? Does that prevent people from getting help they think they might need, stigmatizing an already stigmatized practice?

        Meanwhile, if Dave down the hill has a record, he’s already shown he was willing to do an illegal thing, whether or not the record is fair. If he already has reports against him for domestic disturbances, that’s pretty cut and dry violent behavior that ought not be allowed to intensify.

        I’m not saying mental checks aren’t a good idea or aren’t worth it. I’m saying that they’re a harder sell because a) they take more nuance to formulate well and b) the propaganda machine will have an easier time telling people how those checks are overreach.

  • bunnyfc@kbin.social
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    7 months ago

    I know people who are left leaning democrats and they’re for gun control. But gun control doesn’t solve the problem entirely.

    The problem is the entire culture around guns and toxic ‘me and my gun and my truck’ self sufficiency culture in the US and the lack of a social net.

    • not_that_guy05@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      Yes it is. I was downvoted to shit last time I said we should have the mandatory 10 days waiting period and background checks. Had nothing but what ifs.

      People treating firearms as fuckin toys should be banned. Your firearm was on unattended and your child killed himself or an other person? Straight to jail. Fuckin hate that people have lost the respect of the tool they are using.

      • grayman@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        So what you’re telling me is you and no one you know ever plans for an event more than a week and a half in the future? No wonder you can’t see how dumb this shit is.

          • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            7 months ago

            Well it’ll stop even less than that. Mass shooters plan for months, the law isn’t intended for that. It is meant to stop “crimes of passion” (read: killing your wife), but all that would happen is they prevent this time (or he goes all Chris Benoit), then he picks up his gun 10 days later, and next time he’s in a wife killin’ mood he’s all prepared.

            In fact, statistically, according to the ATF, average “Time to crime” of a firearm (time from purchase to when it ends up involved at a crime scene) is 11 years. That’s a bit longer than 10 days.

            • irmoz@reddthat.com
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              7 months ago

              10 days is more than 0. Is that maths too hard for you? a 0 day waiting time would stop NOTHING. 10 days would at least stop spur of the moment killings. Is that not worth something?

              What would you prefer:

              • A higher number of killings
              • A lower number of killings

              If your standard is 0 killings, you’ll agree with nothing, because nothing will get it to 0.

              • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                7 months ago

                So you don’t care that instead of killing his wife on the first of the month, he kills her on the tenth? Sure solved a lot there. Simply killing someone 9 days later than origionally intended is somehow lowering the number of killings? And no mention of average time to crime being eleven whole years? Again I posit that 11 years is longer than 10 days, there are 410.5 “10 days” stretches in 11yrs, by the time that first gun typically shows up in crime he could have 410 guns and be 5 days from his 411th.

    • GrayoxOP
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      7 months ago

      100% will use the term Terrorist Mass Shooter from now on.

  • agitatedpotato@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    7 months ago

    Was the man not in the national guard? Seems he was exactly a part of a well regulated militia. That doesn’t just automatically stop gun crime.

    • GrayoxOP
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      7 months ago

      That’s the point. It isn’t well-regulated.

      • agitatedpotato@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        7 months ago

        The National Guard is not well regulated? Im gonna wager your definition of well regulated is a body in which nothing bad ever happens, which is not what well regulated means, that’s called perfection.

        If the national guard isnt considered well regulated then nothing is, and clearly the writers of the bill didnt intend for ‘well regulated’ to be an impossible standard. So if well regulated is going to mean something it didnt mean from the authors then that phrase no longer has bearing on the right, and shockingly enough the US Judicial system agrees with and upheld that.

        This was a shooting by a member of a well regulated milita. That phrase or organization structure is not a magic spell that stops crime. The authors would have written ‘crime free’ instead of well regulated if that’s what they meant.

        • GrayoxOP
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          7 months ago

          If a memeber of said Militia can spend 2 weeks in a psychiatric ward for hearing voices in his head telling him to shoot up the said Militia he is a part of and still keep the means to carry out the will of said voices it isn’t well-regulated, sorry not sorry. The term Well-Regulated doesnt automatically mean it is going to be regulated.

          • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            7 months ago

            Here’s the thing though:

            can spend 2 weeks in a psychiatric ward for hearing voices in his head telling him to shoot up the said Militia

            They can’t, it is already a federal law that people who are IVC’d (this guy) are prohibited purchasers and they are supposed to take the guns and input that into NICs, but someone didn’t do their fucking job. Has nothing to do with the weekend warrior militia branch of the US military either, that applies to everyone, federally, as it is a federal law.

          • agitatedpotato@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            7 months ago

            Between active and reservists there are well over one million national guard memebers. The crimes of one of them hardly imply that the regulation is not good. Mistakes are possible, and considering he was let out of the psych hospital is it impossible to think the mistake even could have come from the profit driven org who makes the absolute thinniest proft margins from mental health care? What about the police, did they not also drop the ball, they could have seen this coming, this person was known publicly for his gun lust and extremism. Or is all the blame only on the one orginazation that makes your opinions the most correct looking?

            • ProcurementCat@feddit.de
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              7 months ago

              Mistakes are possible

              Yeah, mistakes like american gun laws. In related news, this year, a soldier from Germany’s National Guard did not go on a killing spree. Nor did a soldier of the French National Guard.

              IT IS THE GODDAMN FUCKING GUNS

              • agitatedpotato@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                7 months ago

                A French cop went on a mass shooting in 2017. In 2020 an ex soldier in france went on a shooting. Sure it wasn’t this year but acting like this doesn’t happen elsewhere is wild. In fact the chances that the shooter is in a well regulated legal organization are higher elsewhere since the other people dont even have guns like that. So I assume Frances gun laws are a problem for you too since they cant stop their Law Enforcement from doing this?

            • GrayoxOP
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              7 months ago

              There is plenty of blame to go around, the problem is systemic. Putting the blame on one institution makes it a scapegoat, we need publicly funded mental health care as much as we need gun control.

              • ProcurementCat@feddit.de
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                7 months ago

                we need publicly funded mental health care as much as we need gun control.

                While the US definitely needs publicly funded (mental) health care, it will not address the gun issue. It doesn’t matter if a country has public health care or not, what matters for gun related deaths is either a) number of (civil) guns or b) (civil) war.

                Do not give into gun nuts in this regard. Do not agree that the US needs both. The US needs exactly and only one thing when it comes to gun deaths: Fewer guns.

                • GrayoxOP
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                  7 months ago

                  Nah fam, we need both. Fewer guns, even destorying every AR15 in America wouldn’t solve the #1 cause of gun deaths in America, which is suicide.

                • Daft_ish@lemmy.world
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                  7 months ago

                  You sound like the people who advocated for the war on drugs…

                  I would piss my pants laughing in an alternate universe where we did ban all guns and there was a whole legalize it movement.

                  Prohibition is hardly ever a great answer.

        • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
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          7 months ago

          If the national guard isnt considered well regulated then nothing is

          Ignoring the fact that this is obviously a false dichotomy… Have you ever served in the guard or active duty military? The guard especially from certain states, is usually known for being an unorganized shit show. Active duty has its obvious issues, but they also have a lot more control over their personnel, including who they keep and promote.

          In the guard, as long as you show up for roll call and pass your test you’re pretty much promoted until you want to leave. Which is why the last few military pr blunders were committed by officers or NCO in the reserves.

          I doubt you would find many people who served in the reserves that would claim they were well organized or well regulated.

    • GrayoxOP
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      7 months ago

      The terror is stochastic the lone wolf mass shooter is the terror metastasized. Lone Wolf Mass Shooter and Terrorist are synonyms.

  • CMSprocket@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    I’m looking to learn here, so please forgive me about this, but I had heard something about there being multiple shooters involved. Something about two middle Eastern looking men and a maroon car. It was like a police dispatch audio, but with little context and no sources. My Google-fu is failing me at the moment. Can someone help educate me on this?

  • intensely_human@lemm.ee
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    7 months ago

    It is the result of an unarmed society. The only weapon deployed against this guy was a butcher knife, and predictably it didn’t work.

  • ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works
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    7 months ago

    Maine is a state where almost half the households have guns. I don’t think opponents of the second amendment are going to find a lot of support there even after yesterday’s mass shooting.

    • GrayoxOP
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      7 months ago

      People advocating for gun control arent opponents of the 2nd amendment…

      • Scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech
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        7 months ago

        Like most things fox news has turned the entire debate into an us vs them thing. Gun control is surprisingly something that most Republicans and Democrats agree on.

      • ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works
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        7 months ago

        People advocating for gun control aren’t necessarily opponents of the 2nd amendment, but people talking about well-regulated militias usually are. What’s the point of bringing up that strange phrase unless you don’t think that the 2nd amendment’s right to bear arms applies to everyone regardless of membership in some sort of militia?

        • HikingVet@lemmy.sdf.org
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          7 months ago

          Well, the way it’s written and how some people frame the argument, yeah they should have to be in a militia.

          2nd amendment doesn’t talk about private ownership of weapons.

          • ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works
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            7 months ago

            That’s not an unreasonable reading of the text, but if you’re going to look at the Constitution that way, you’ll see that it doesn’t talk about abortion or gay marriage either. I’m in favor of abortion rights and gay marriage, and that’s why I don’t start “but the Constitution doesn’t literally say…” arguments with conservatives.

          • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            7 months ago

            Actually the way that it is written, “the militia” is the reason that “the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

            Put it another way:

            A well balanced breakfast, being necessary to the start of a healthy day, the right of the people to keep and eat food shall not be infringed.

            From this it is clear, “a well balanced breakfast” doesn’t have the right to “keep and eat food,” “the people” do, because “breakfast is important.”

    • ProcurementCat@feddit.de
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      7 months ago

      I think it’s pretty easy to find support for gun control.

      Or “oppose the second amendment”, as you propagandistically say, because you dont have facts on your side.

      • ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works
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        7 months ago

        Isn’t that a national poll, as opposed to a poll of Maine residents? I’m talking specifically about Maine, not about the USA as a whole.

        Or “oppose the second amendment”, as you propagandistically say, because you dont have facts on your side.

        Generally people who quibble about the term “well-regulated militia” do specifically oppose the second amendment. But the constitution of Maine doesn’t have that ambiguity:

        Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms and this right shall never be questioned.

      • Mossy Feathers (They/Them)@pawb.social
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        I might be wrong, but isn’t everything on there already a requirement? I think the mental health check is the only thing that isn’t (unless you consider losing your right to own a gun after being involuntarily committed for any reason to be a mental health check). The problem is that even our existing gun control laws aren’t being properly enforced (otherwise that wouldn’t be part of the poll). I think there needs to be more gun control. I’m just not sure that more gun control is going to work because the government won’t enforce what’s already there.

        I personally think a licensing system similar to what we have for cars would help a lot. Want a double-barrel shotgun? The current system would probably work for that. Want an AR-15? You need the enthusiast license which involves a week or two of training, a basic mental health evaluation, and a gun safe (not a flimsy lockbox) to store it in. Want a .50 cal, belt-fed browning machine gun? You gotta get the super ultra deluxe license that requires a year of training and mental health checks, background checks complete with colonoscopies from the FBI and ATF, and you still need a gun safe to store it in. Finally, if your gun is used in a crime then you’re considered to be an accomplice. Your only defense is if you can prove it was properly stored and you reported it as stolen within a reasonable amount of time.

        Edit: I got it guys, I’m wrong about existing gun control. I’m leaving the post up because there may be others who are also confused about it.

        • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          7 months ago

          Not quite, most states don’t have a waiting period either because they haven’t been shown to be effective at curbing crime. In fact avg “time to crime” of a gun is 11yrs according to the ATF, 11yr is quite the waiting period.

        • Deftdrummer@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          You’re not wrong those are all required by law except the mental health checks, but even then you are prohibited if you’ve had an involuntary stay in a mental institution.

          But those people aren’t interested in facts, only biased groupthink just look at how they show their thoughts with their downvotes because they have nothing intelligent to say.