First off, I don’t base my views on “what Americans are like” with what people post online. Just about everyone I know personally has just gone off the deep end it seems.
People I’ve known for decades who were “right of center” have now drifted to the far right. Where they used to support separation of church and state, small government, etc. they now want the government to tax the poor, establish a Christian ethnostate, and are openly talking about “the coming revolution”. Meanwhile, most everyone I’ve known who is leftist wants the government to disarm them, claims to be pro-LGBT but blindly supports any Muslim country and blindly hates Israel, and thinks Joe Biden is the “greatest president EVAR”.
Am I just in a weird bubble where 95% of the people in my life are politically and philosophically dipshits? Does anyone else experience this with people they actually know? I feel like I’m going crazy when I can be talking with a “leftist” about trans rights in Texas and then the very next conversation is about how wholesome they think the average Palestinian is in Gaza. Is there anyone else who’s at least left of center and recognizes that religious zealots in the Middle East want to kill you and shouldn’t be supported and religious zealots in YOUR OWN FUCKING COUNTRY want to kill you and you shouldn’t disarm yourself?
Just what the fuck is going on in this country? There’s so much disinformation and paid trolls that I don’t base these views off what’s online. I just run into the exact same lunacy with nearly everyone I’ve known my whole life.
Meanwhile, most everyone I’ve known who is leftist wants the government to disarm them, claims to be pro-LGBT but blindly supports any Muslim country and blindly hates Israel, and thinks Joe Biden is the “greatest president EVAR”.
I don’t think you know many leftists…
It really sounds like everything you know about both sides was taught to you by the “other side”.
I’m not fond of GOP policies at all, but I disagree with most all of what you claim leftists believe.
Are you actually talking to people about their own beliefs or just listening to what other people are saying about them?
Did you mean to respond to someone else?
Yeah, the message is for OP. I must have had your comment highlighted when I replied.
Ah okay, I figured that made more sense.
Yeah, I’m pretty far left and was thinking, none of these even sound close.
Ppl as dumb as op think USA Dems are “left”.
This is how fucking stupid op is.
rude ._.
Oh get over it.
Yeah but Dems wildly support Israel and it’s ethnic cleansing.
“Am I just in a weird bubble where 95% of the people in my life are politically and philosophically dipshits?”
Yes. You are absolutely in the wrong places talking to the wrong people. It sounds like it is rubbing off on you.
American here.
Uhhh…I’m not really sure who you’re talking to on the American left about Joe Biden, but few people really like him as a president, despite his effectiveness.
Also, do you understand why 95% of the people in your life believe what they do? It’s easy to call people stupid when you don’t understand where they’re coming from.
I don’t need to understand where they’re coming from if they want to cut social programs, lower taxes on the rich, support societies that would happily execute gay people, etc.
Even though I don’t need to understand, I do actually. When it comes to the people on the right, it’s mostly people I’ve known from growing up in a religious family and from spending a lot of time doing work in factories. They’re bigoted zealots who think that the real problem with Millennials and Gen Z is that they just don’t want to work anymore. And if they just wanted to work and put in the effort they could all be retiring with nice cars and mansions.
As for the people I know on the left, it’s not as many who are completely insane. But it’s still most of them. People who voted Hillary because “it was her turn!” or even voted Obama because “I feel bad for black people, so he needed to be president no matter what” (those are literal fucking quotes, I shit you not). Not only that, but they’ll talk about how dangerous the rightwing is and how they want to overthrow the country, and then the very next topic of conversation can be about how they don’t trust themselves with a gun and are offended at the suggestion that they should arm themselves.
If you think with either of these I’m talking about you and you’re offended, you need to reevaluate your morals.
You HAVE to understand wherre they’re coming from, because that’s EXACTLY how you fight against useful idiots.
Most of the people you will talk to are NOT experts in … well, anything political at LEAST. If you start condemning people for something they probably haven’t even thought that deeply about, then you are just as guilty as them of ignoring nuance.
If you’re going to condemn people for the natural conclusions of their ignorant actions, then you should be for trying children as adults who accidentally shot a family member. After all, it’s about consequences, not intent, right?
I don’t need to understand where they’re coming from
Why does everyone think this? Because you’re wrong. Everybody is wrong about this. 100% of people that believe they don’t need to understand the epistemology of people they disagree with, and especially of people they hate, need to pull their head out of their asses.
People who voted Hillary because “it was her turn!” or even voted Obama because “I feel bad for black people, so he needed to be president no matter what” (those are literal fucking quotes, I shit you not).
These people are dumb. Period.
the very next topic of conversation can be about how they don’t trust themselves with a gun and are offended at the suggestion that they should arm themselves.
Yeah, I don’t trust myself with a gun. I would definitely shoot someone in a road rage incident, which are becoming increasingly common. Or I might commit suicide because this country makes me so fucking depressed.
Why does everyone think this?
I think this because I’ve spent over a decade of my life trying to understand where people come from and getting nowhere with helping them. I’ve read the scripture they share with me and they just ignore rebuttals and tell me I have “an unteachable spirit” or I “can’t understand their gospel”. I’ll listen to the podcasts of political thinkers they listen to and hear absolutely nothing of substance, nothing that actually provides a foundation for their beliefs beyond “wouldn’t it be nice if we had X”.
The only progress I’ve ever made is by recently telling people they have no clue what they’re talking about and calling them a dipshit or asshole where appropriate. It’s insane. They don’t care about studies, stats, facts, whatever. No attempt at rational debate changes their mind in any capacity. But having the “quiet and patient” person in their life snap at them seems to do something at least.
Sounds like you’re talking to koolaid drinkers and religious, not the politically motivated. Only religious morons and the painfully immature treat “the truth” as an absolute thing you know or don’t know. ESPECIALLY in politics, where EVERY choice has positive and negative consequences to balance.
Trying to get an informed political opinion from a religious zealot is about as useful as getting your calculus homework finished by toddlers…
Sure, but they’re still the people I grew up with in life. I won’t let them be part of my life if they truly believe that the January 6th seditionists did nothing wrong. But I still care about them and try to talk them down from this.
They’ve been through years of programming fed to them by professionals. As just some schmuck that doesn’t understand their beliefs, you’ll never be able to undo what has been done. It’s sad, but they need a LOT more than “Wait. You mean Trump REALLY DID LIE?!? I had no idea! This changes everything!”
I mean, I grew up in the same church environment. So I do understand their belief system intimately. The problem isn’t any understanding on my part, it’s their mindset. They want to make their current beliefs right, not to find the truth and be right. Recently, verbally insulting and degrading them has actually given me results. So maybe their tendencies to do the same to others out of hate is just projection.
First of all, nice bait, looks delicious, think I’ll chow down.
I think this because I’ve spent over a decade of my life trying to understand where people come from and getting nowhere with helping them.
This mindset sounds closer to the problem than to the solution. Do you truly believe that the best way to interact with an extremist is to blindly judge them, then assume that they will question their entire worldview because one person, who has made no good faith effort to understand them, decides to call them names?
Many extremists, though perhaps not most, feel the way they do because they honestly believe they are doing the right thing. They listen to the lived experiences of people they trust and discount the words of people they do not. The blind judgment of others only ‘proves’ to them that it’s all one big conspiracy, everyone else are sheep, and that they are the only ones who can think for themselves.
I don’t know if you necessarily have to understand them, but you should still ask them about it, just to make them think about it.
Lots of people form their opinions out of their ass without ever being confronted with why they have hat opinion.
You don’t have to like these people, but you do need to co-exist. That’ll be difficult if they are allowed to dig themselves into their trenches without any resistance until they start flinging shit at each other.
The only way to avoid it getting worse is to engage in dialogue and keep questioning them. Don’t argue, don’t tell them what is right or wrong, just keep asking “why do you think that?”
The other side of that coin is to allow people to question your beliefs and to actually think about things when they do.
Those two things together is what will really help, imo.
They will ask eventually. I just don’t want to force anything on anyone
I believe that it is impossible to teach anyone anything, but it is possible for anyone to learn anything.
Understanding happens when someone thinks and reaches out.
I have asked them about it, and it generally goes one of two ways depending on which way they identify.
Rightwing: “Because it’s in the Bible.”
Leftwing: “I don’t know, I just think that.”
If a leftist cannot explain to you the reasonings behind their stances… They are a TERRIBLE leftist. Are you sure you’ve actually talked to people?!
I promise you, I know someone who has met only a single Palestinian in their entire life here in America and now believes that at least 80% of Palestinians in Gaza are not bigots because this one person isn’t. I also know somebody who has apparently found “leftist Qanon” and now believes that Hamas is good and literally has not murdered a single baby in Israel.
Who knows? Maybe the area I live in has just been polluted by something? Or maybe COVID fried everyone’s brain? I did move away for most of my life and only came back just before COVID.
I know you’ve met people like that.
The problem is you’re attempting to treat them as some beacon of political wisdom.
What?
Those are good answers. Not for understanding, but because it shows that they admittedly don’t really know, so they’ll now have to think about it.
It would be tempting to keep questioning why they believe in the bible or believe in something they don’t know, but that would likely only result in them getting angry and potentially digging further into their trench.
Don’t push them. You’ve already sown the first seed. Just step back and let them think. Maybe address the issue a while later and hear if they’ve become more open to alternative takes on the issue. That’s the entire point.
they don’t trust themselves with a gun and are offended at the suggestion that they should arm themselves.
This feels like satire.
I wish it was. You want another dumb reason I’ve heard for voting Hillary? “She reminded me of my mom, so I trust her.”
Friend, based on your comment history this just feels like a bait post so you can vigorously defend Israel some more.
“Friend”, if you came here to make that comment and are blindly pro-Palestine, you fall into the group of leftists I’m talking about.
Everyone is a friend until they’re not.
I am not blindly pro-anyone. I want everyone to be able to live in peace. I would give my life to save my Jewish (or Muslim) neighbours.
What I cannot abide is a massive online propaganda campaign orchestrated by a certain country’s military to try and sway world opinion in favour of a genocide they’re itching to commit in the name of self-defence. Now I’m not saying you’re definitely part of that, but all of the hallmarks are there.
Israelis deserve to live in peace, as do the Palestinians.
I think you’re in a bubble of right wing idiots unfortunately (though the Republicans I know have be emboldened since Trump and are finally being who they truly are). I have a lot of those types where I’m from and some that I work with, but the majority of us are fed up with the bullshit of our government and want to see it changed (especially among the millennial and gen z crowd). Unfortunately the older generations are in power and doing whatever they want, so we’re having to deal with the bullshit that the very vocal minority want as opposed to what the majority does.
America is dog shit right now and I couldn’t be less proud of this country, but look at the past presodential election, the majority voted left, despite that our broken government is getting further right anyway.
I hope it’s just a bubble. I do live in a region where if you drive out in the deep rural areas, there’s a non-zero chance that you’ll see a swastika flying on a flag. I’ve just never seen so many people be so “un-American” while claiming to be true patriots.
First off, I don’t base my views on “what Americans are like” with what people post online.
… Meanwhile, most everyone I’ve known who is leftist wants the government to disarm them, claims to be pro-LGBT but blindly supports any Muslim country and blindly hates Israel, and thinks Joe Biden is the “greatest president EVAR”.
These two statements are contradictory. No one in the world has ever thought biden is the greatest president ever, least of all leftists.
The only place you hear people saying biden is the best are right wing lunatics on the internet who think that’s what left wingers would believe.
It really very strongly sounds like you’ve just been talking to right wing cranks online.
It sounds like they are a right wing crank tbh.
Yep captain, every Arab person in Gaza is a zealous transphobe that will go around and lynch all LGBTQIA people, not a racist sentiment at all /s
Fuck off with your Israeli genocidal propaganda
This is exactly what I mean in my post. I’ve been “patient and polite” for decades. And then I see shit like this not just online, but also with leftists I personally know.
As someone who’s actually been to Muslim countries in the Middle East and seen their brand of racism and literal slavery, you have no fucking clue what you’re talking about. Yes actually, I believe that a MUSLIM MAJORITY country is going to mostly be racist, transphobic bigots. Do you have any fucking idea what Muslims in the Middle East are actually like?
Have you ever seen a slave in real life? Have you ever driven past ancient ruins from other religions that were defaced and scrubbed clean? Have you ever been warned “make sure you don’t have any religious material on you” before entering a country? Have you ever had to drive in a convoy with a security detail? Have you ever been near a suicide bombing? Have you ever seen 15 women in full Burqas being lead around and told what to do by a 12 year old boy?
You dipshit “leftists” are sheltered and have no fucking clue just how evil other people can be. Since you’ve got no fucking nuance, I’ll spell it out for you. I do not blindly support Israel. I openly condemn every atrocity they commit. But I can see that if I were gay there’d be only one country in the Middle East that I could feel safe in.
I’ve ranted and vented, and I feel just about done caring about all this. Boomers are going to reap what they’ve sown with the failing economy and climate change destroying their chances at retirement. But you dumbass Millennials and Gen Z who think they know it all are also going to reap what you’ve sown in the future. Learn some history, learn about just how awful every fundamentalist religious culture is. Learn how to use a firearm or flee this country if you want any chance at a happy ending in your life.
Are Arabic countries racist? No. Transphopic? probably. Supporting slavery? IDK what hell hole you were in, but if it’s actual slavery, then I’ve never visited that part of the world before.
Based on the convoys you’ve taken and the other experiences you’ve had, it looks like you check if the country has ongoing conflicts and if it does, you decide to go there. Have you paid Yemen or Syria a visit yet? I am sure you’ll be blown away.
If you were Christian or Muslim and didn’t want to be spit on and attacked for no reason, then your middle eastern country of choice changes drastically. The “only democracy in the middle east” is not the most secular country, nor is it the least racist one.
then I’ve never visited that part of the world before
Yeah, it sure sounds like you’ve never visited a Muslim majority country before. I can’t speak for the most war-torn parts of the Middle East, but I can say that even the “nicer” parts like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, etc. have no shortage of racism and sexism.
You have no idea what the fuck you’re even talking about.
Ashamed American here. The “center” has been shifting right for decades now. Since before my birth, gaining momentum in the Nixon administration with the advent of work sponsored healthcare.
PAC money has driven politicians to make decisions based on their donors and not the will of the people. This creates a legal bribery system. And as the oft mis-attributed quote goes, “fascism is the marriage of corporations and state.”
The average person is too consumed by making ends meet and trying to find a modicum of substance at the end of the day to be bothered by politics. The others are distracted by the clown show our politicians put on for us.
Only the super wealthy can affect change. https://www.vox.com/2014/4/18/5624310/martin-gilens-testing-theories-of-american-politics-explained
The two party political system and the Electoral College (the representative voting body) ensure this stays in place and that third party votes will only cause one of the main candidates to lose.
I am highly left here. In Europe, I’d probably be considered center-left with a focus on humanitarianism. I consider myself a secular humanist. With that, I stand with the people above all else before party, religion, or heritage. Humans first, then arbitrary affiliations.
Wish I personally knew more people like you. Only three people I know would fit this description.
I wish I knew more people like you as well. We all need support in these times.
All the data I’ve ever seen suggests that its the left thats been slowly moving, and the right has been largely anchored where it started for decades (this ignores trump and post trump, which might change that?). It’s a bad thing that the right has remained anchored on horrible positions, but its a different problem.
I don’t know where you’re getting your data but the only rigorous analysis I’ve ever seen of political polarization is based on DW-NOMINATE scores, and it does indeed confirm that it’s the right wing that’s been drifting right.
Link: https://goodauthority.org/news/polarization-is-real-and-asymmetric/
Show me the data.
Yes the country is very divided because both sides have moved further from the center. I blame MSM and social media for this.
Have they though? I struggle to find positions that the Democrats hold that are to the left of where they’ve been for the last 20-30 years. They are pro-choice, for racial equality, for gay rights, etc. Republicans on the other hand have swung wildly to the far-right.
I wish the Democrats would move left, but I haven’t seen it in my lifetime, they are a party of centrists, for the most part.
I do live in a town with two major colleges for the region. It’s crazy how many “socialists” I’ve met who don’t even know about concepts like UBI. “Tax the rich” doesn’t make you socialist. That’s just the easiest, lowest hanging fruit to figure out.
have you ever considered that the whole “left”, “right” “center” labels are meaningless to real people? they’re a tool of the same MSM you mention to make people think there’s more of a divide than there is.
sure there are ideologies that those labels can roughly categorize, but real people with real opinions rarely fit neatly into simple categories
have you ever considered that the whole “left”, “right” “center” labels are meaningless to real people?
No, I think a lot of people definitely see themselves on one side or the other.
and that has nothing to do with the MSM making them think that way?
I think MSM has made it worse, they’ve pushed the two sides further apart. But political parties have been around longer than MSM, so I think people will naturally align with one side or another. Having only two major political parties makes this even easier.
My theory is micro-plastics have been really starting to effect people. The amount of plastic we are all ingesting is scary.
Both sides are full of horseshit, Democrats, aka Republican-lite, have less of it. That’s the way I vote because that’s the best I can do :(
Not sure who you’re talking to and interacting with. Had to move from Seattle to the middle of Oklahoma last year for work and none of what you describe is the norm here, meanwhile Seattle is a whooooooole different animal.
Huh, it’s been awhile since a post like this, forgot I didn’t have anything in the sidebar/pinned post directing them to a more appropriate community.
This reads as more like venting, for which there’s !vent@lemmy.world. If you’d like to start a discussion related to politics here, like how political polarization seems to be affecting people, that’s okay, but this veers a ways off from that imo.
That lack of nuance you accuse everyone of… maybe check if that applies to you too.
I’m not sure I know a single person who sounds like what you’re describing. These seem like caricatures.
Then I guess you’re lucky?
