America dwarfs its rivals. Who is Israel going to turn to? Russia? Unlikely, Russia sides with Bashar Al Assad which makes that impossible. China? Nope, they’re too friendly with Iran.
Israel has no one else.
Now obviously Israel could survive for some time without US support, but not long. Without the US they’ll lose EU/NATO support, and they’ll also lose the buffer that keeps all of their regional rivals from attacking directly. It’s not just financial support that enables their genocide, it’s soft power too.
And as for domestic opinion, time and time again we see that shit doesn’t matter. Americans want healthcare too, that shit isn’t happening.
We don’t have to support genocide or blowing this up into WW3. There are other options.
I do worry about the domestic side a lot though, with the elections razor thin it doesn’t take much to tip things to someone even worse on, uh, many things, Israel and Palestine included. And Netanyahu already having a record meddling in US elections.
I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss Israel joining up with Russia and/or China in the future. The Soviet Union was the first country to recognize Israel after independence. Netanyahu and Putin have been fairly chummy too, they describe each other as “personal friends.” Russian is the third most common spoken language in Israel. Israel has also provided cover for Russia at times, like defending Russia (or at least failing to condemn) after it carried out assassinations in the UK.
I don’t think China having links to Iran is really a barrier. I think larger powers frequently court allies that may even be at odds with each other, sometimes on purpose. Or just not really care if they both have advantages. United States relationship with Turkey could be an example here. Or United States, Isreal, and the many countries that haven’t traditionally been very friendly with Israel. But tons of examples really.
Terrible that America is supporting genocide here. I think they should be cutting back or making support conditional (at least until the shoe was on the other foot if in some eventuality the Isrealis became the ones more in danger of genocide). I don’t think American support withdrawal would cause Israel to collapse, but I think a sudden support withdrawal right now would probably be more likely to cause world War 3 than less. Emboldening Iran and others to open war.
Not really any easy answers that I can see. Probably why a lot of this is being dealt with in a clandistine fashion. Hopefully current US leadership can find some route for reigning this in.
Israel, as a settler-colonial regime occupying a majority Arab nation, is fundamentally contradictory to China’s belt-and-road initiative. China got Iran and Saudi Arabia to talk to each other! Israel would make that so much harder. They’d much rather unite the Arab world against Israel tbh - I suppose I could see Russia, but they’re really not that strong of an ally.
Also? America is supporting Israel’s genocide because it’s the same as America’s genocide of its own Native population. You’re seeing America as some kind of good guy being forced into a bad position, but actually, Israel is the 51st State. They’re fundamentally the same.
Israel is building up strong ties with the Arab world outside of Iran. They’ve signed quite a few agreements with other countries in the region. I think Israel would fit in very nicely with the China belt and road initiative. They’d be an appealing ally to Netanyahu too. China certainly would have no complaints about the authoritarian direction he’s been taking Israel in.
I’m not sure I see the link between the Native American genocide and Palestinian one. Not that I don’t see all the many similarities and the obvious facts like they’re both genocides, but what I mean is I don’t think any country is seriously going to be applying any pressure to America over treatment of Native Americans in any way. I don’t see how funding for Israel does anything for the American government in this sense even if that was the case?
I didn’t mean to imply America being the “good guy” here. I think they absolutely should cut off or condition funding in some way. Just wondering how it can be best done to prevent Israel just continuing its apartheid state without US support after funding is withdrawn. But we’ll never find out if the US never tries.
Israel is building up strong ties with the Arab world outside of Iran. They’ve signed quite a few agreements with other countries in the region. I think Israel would fit in very nicely with the China belt and road initiative.
Kind of, but they’re pissing it all away right now with their genocidal retaliation against Hamas. China simply wouldn’t be able to have their cake and eat it too, they’d need to make hard choices because working with Israel on the belt and road wouldn’t just alienate Iran, but also Jordan and Lebanon. Possibly more countries if Israel keeps souring relations with Egypt.
It’s definitely a complicated situation! I can agree about that.
I don’t see how funding for Israel does anything for the American government in this sense even if that was the case?
No no, I mean, America and Israel are part of the same settler-colonial metaproject. Upholding Israel helps protect America from ever paying for its own crimes, and visa versa.
America could actually someday pay for what it did and does to Native Americans. Israel acts as a buffer in the UN and international community, y’know?
I kind of get you. I’m still not sure I ever see the international community becoming very concerned about native Americans unfortunately. If we go through the major powers, China’s foreign policy is basically, domestic businesses is domestic, you stay out of our stuff and we’ll stay out of yours. Russia is well, yeah, off attempting yet another genocide of their own at the moment. Europe is heavily reliant on America and has a pretty horrific colonial and genocidal past of their own that they’ve barely made any recompense for.
I agree that America’s relationship with Isreal must be supplying the American government with some kind of tangible benefits or they wouldn’t be doing it. I’m just not sure, international community cover for native American genocide, is one of them or a big need the US government feels it has.
Thank you again for the good points and discussion.
America dwarfs its rivals. Who is Israel going to turn to? Russia? Unlikely, Russia sides with Bashar Al Assad which makes that impossible. China? Nope, they’re too friendly with Iran.
Israel has no one else.
Now obviously Israel could survive for some time without US support, but not long. Without the US they’ll lose EU/NATO support, and they’ll also lose the buffer that keeps all of their regional rivals from attacking directly. It’s not just financial support that enables their genocide, it’s soft power too.
And as for domestic opinion, time and time again we see that shit doesn’t matter. Americans want healthcare too, that shit isn’t happening.
We don’t have to support genocide or blowing this up into WW3. There are other options.
Those are some good points!
I do worry about the domestic side a lot though, with the elections razor thin it doesn’t take much to tip things to someone even worse on, uh, many things, Israel and Palestine included. And Netanyahu already having a record meddling in US elections.
I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss Israel joining up with Russia and/or China in the future. The Soviet Union was the first country to recognize Israel after independence. Netanyahu and Putin have been fairly chummy too, they describe each other as “personal friends.” Russian is the third most common spoken language in Israel. Israel has also provided cover for Russia at times, like defending Russia (or at least failing to condemn) after it carried out assassinations in the UK.
I don’t think China having links to Iran is really a barrier. I think larger powers frequently court allies that may even be at odds with each other, sometimes on purpose. Or just not really care if they both have advantages. United States relationship with Turkey could be an example here. Or United States, Isreal, and the many countries that haven’t traditionally been very friendly with Israel. But tons of examples really.
Terrible that America is supporting genocide here. I think they should be cutting back or making support conditional (at least until the shoe was on the other foot if in some eventuality the Isrealis became the ones more in danger of genocide). I don’t think American support withdrawal would cause Israel to collapse, but I think a sudden support withdrawal right now would probably be more likely to cause world War 3 than less. Emboldening Iran and others to open war.
Not really any easy answers that I can see. Probably why a lot of this is being dealt with in a clandistine fashion. Hopefully current US leadership can find some route for reigning this in.
Israel, as a settler-colonial regime occupying a majority Arab nation, is fundamentally contradictory to China’s belt-and-road initiative. China got Iran and Saudi Arabia to talk to each other! Israel would make that so much harder. They’d much rather unite the Arab world against Israel tbh - I suppose I could see Russia, but they’re really not that strong of an ally.
Also? America is supporting Israel’s genocide because it’s the same as America’s genocide of its own Native population. You’re seeing America as some kind of good guy being forced into a bad position, but actually, Israel is the 51st State. They’re fundamentally the same.
Israel is building up strong ties with the Arab world outside of Iran. They’ve signed quite a few agreements with other countries in the region. I think Israel would fit in very nicely with the China belt and road initiative. They’d be an appealing ally to Netanyahu too. China certainly would have no complaints about the authoritarian direction he’s been taking Israel in.
I’m not sure I see the link between the Native American genocide and Palestinian one. Not that I don’t see all the many similarities and the obvious facts like they’re both genocides, but what I mean is I don’t think any country is seriously going to be applying any pressure to America over treatment of Native Americans in any way. I don’t see how funding for Israel does anything for the American government in this sense even if that was the case?
I didn’t mean to imply America being the “good guy” here. I think they absolutely should cut off or condition funding in some way. Just wondering how it can be best done to prevent Israel just continuing its apartheid state without US support after funding is withdrawn. But we’ll never find out if the US never tries.
Kind of, but they’re pissing it all away right now with their genocidal retaliation against Hamas. China simply wouldn’t be able to have their cake and eat it too, they’d need to make hard choices because working with Israel on the belt and road wouldn’t just alienate Iran, but also Jordan and Lebanon. Possibly more countries if Israel keeps souring relations with Egypt.
It’s definitely a complicated situation! I can agree about that.
No no, I mean, America and Israel are part of the same settler-colonial metaproject. Upholding Israel helps protect America from ever paying for its own crimes, and visa versa.
America could actually someday pay for what it did and does to Native Americans. Israel acts as a buffer in the UN and international community, y’know?
I kind of get you. I’m still not sure I ever see the international community becoming very concerned about native Americans unfortunately. If we go through the major powers, China’s foreign policy is basically, domestic businesses is domestic, you stay out of our stuff and we’ll stay out of yours. Russia is well, yeah, off attempting yet another genocide of their own at the moment. Europe is heavily reliant on America and has a pretty horrific colonial and genocidal past of their own that they’ve barely made any recompense for.
I agree that America’s relationship with Isreal must be supplying the American government with some kind of tangible benefits or they wouldn’t be doing it. I’m just not sure, international community cover for native American genocide, is one of them or a big need the US government feels it has.
Thank you again for the good points and discussion.