• Chetzemoka@startrek.website
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        1 year ago

        By starving millions of them? Because that’s exactly what transpired during most of those revolutions. And the long term outcomes have not turned out to be better for poor people than the American revolution was. Show me the ideal communist state that resulted.

        • Burn_The_Right@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Revolutions often happen because of starvation. Not the other way around.

          And I can tell you this… Billionaires and their conservative minions are making many of us extremely hungry.

          • Chetzemoka@startrek.website
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            1 year ago

            Well they solved starvation by dramatically increasing it and then replaced old systems with new ones that have all those same old problems. So consider me unconvinced. I think we need to find a new way to change these systems that’s more resilient for the future

    • irmoz@reddthat.com
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      1 year ago

      Lol sure. So why try and improve things? You’ll only make it worse. Enjoy the scraps.

      • Chetzemoka@startrek.website
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        1 year ago

        Please show me where I said to do nothing. Why don’t you try imagining new ways of improving things rather than repeating the mistakes of the past? Of the revolutions in the 18th-20th centuries, I think only the American revolution accomplished anything close to what it was intending. And that’s because it didn’t destroy all the existing institutions while in the process of implementing new ones.

        (Not that I agree with what the American revolution was intending, but we did get mostly what they set out to do without thousands of poor civilians starving to death in the process.)

        • krolden
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          1 year ago

          The american revolution upheld slavery in America so yeah you’re not wrong.

          • Chetzemoka@startrek.website
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            1 year ago

            Our institutions are not the problem, our policies are the problem. I want to see a transition to UBI, but a dramatic overhaul that dismantled WIC and SNAP before we got UBI in place would be an unmitigated disaster for the very people we were intending to help.

            It’s not the reform that I’m skeptical of. It’s the lust for revolutionary destruction as a path to reform that I’m skeptical of. It’s emotionally satisfying without regard to its actual efficacy in accomplishing the proposed reforms. Because history does not show us evidence that this works out well in the short nor the long run.

            • irmoz@reddthat.com
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              1 year ago

              I’m proposing a revolution entirely led by the people, as that is the only true kind of revolution. The people who would then rule themselves with no intermediaries. Real grassroots organisation.

              • Chetzemoka@startrek.website
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                1 year ago

                Well, it better have some kind of mechanism in place to keep the grocery stores full or it’s going to fail on its face.

                • irmoz@reddthat.com
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                  1 year ago

                  Couple things for you to look up:

                  • Farming
                  • Transport

                  These two things would likely do it.

                  • Chetzemoka@startrek.website
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                    1 year ago

                    Do what? Just saying “we’ll have farming and transport” is not a plan.

                    I’m not saying there isn’t any other way to accomplish food production and distribution. I’m saying that just overthrowing our current systems without an explicit plan to keep food on the shelves is going to result in regular working class people starving. That has happened in every revolution except the American, and that’s because the American revolutionaries already had the Continental Congress in place making plans about how to administrate the country, if they managed to win the war.

                    But most revolutions were just pure chaos with no plan that resulted in regular people starving to death. I 100% agree we need new systems. But I’m not terribly interested in living through a violent revolution.