First of all I really wouldn’t put much weight on the voting results in an area where Hamas uses violence for decades to keep in power. Especially if there isn’t any semblance of a modern democratic state such as regular(!!) elections, freedom of speech and a free press. A 1-2 generation long youth indoctrination like the Nazis did also really doesn’t create an educated and politically mature population.
And of course 53% still leaves a huge amount of people who aren’t in favour. Not to mention that there is a 70+ year long ongoing conflict which has left pretty much no one in Gaza (or Israel for that matter) who doesn’t know someone getting hurt or killed by the opposing side’s actions. It’s hardly surprising that there’s hard feeling (major understatement) in a lot of people.
And lastly we certainly wouldn’t want to use public opinion as justification for killing civilians. That’s the reasoning the likes of Osama bin Laden do to justify shit like 9/11.
TL;DR: This conflict is complicated as hell and basically a self fueling cycle of hatred where even the good side is acting very shitty a lot of times.
This conflict is anything but simple. Nearly a century of bloody violence by both sides seldom makes for a clear good vs evil conflict. The fact that Hamas still is the worse autocratic despotic ruler when compared to the hardliner wanna be authoritarians of Netanyahu’s party proves that. Fighting back against oppression doesn’t absolve you from the human duty of compassion and when you indiscriminately kill civilians your fight isn’t justice anymore but just another crime against humanity!
Maybe back when the Zionist militants/terrorist first started to wage their war to get their own country one could have pointed at one side as the good one. But since then both sides have committed countless atrocities. The only thing for sure is that neither kids deserve to grow up in such an environment and to be raised to continue the fight for another generation.
Yes, exactly. It’s worth noting though, that many good people are brought into these regimes, and are folded into the hate by their leaders, and the hate they receive from the extremists that oppose them.
Not only do terrorists and gangs harm those they seek to harm, but they also grow and root their evil into the normal and healthy communities they base themselves in. Both Hamas and Israel are poisoning their own people more than those they directly kill.
I know, right? Don’t they know reality is a zero sum game?
Horrific acts done against a group of people cancel out the horrific acts they do. As long as the other side is “worse” you can torture, murder, and rape all you want – it’s totally justified.Especially if you indiscriminately target defensless civilian populations for your “revenge”.
You are morally obliged to shoot and kill people who are invading your country. The fact that includes civilians is not the fault of Hamas. Just a thought: if you don’t want to get killed in a war maybe don’t kick out the inhabitants to move into an active war zone??
And yes, it’s an active war zone. Even the EU calls them what they are: an illegal occupation. You are passively supporting ethnic genocide.
Glad you asked why Israel is in control of the electricity. They are in control of the power because Fatah/PLO pocketed millions (perhaps billions) of dollars worth of Israeli and international aid specifically earmarked for building power and water plants. In other words, Israel provides power because otherwise there would be no power, because Arafat and his minions were corrupt.
Can you only think in terms of groups? Believe it or not, I did not join lemm.ee because of my politics or whatever, I just like the name.
Interesting that your first response to an opinion you don’t agree with is a call for defederation. Ignoring the opinions and ideas of people you disagree with puts you in an echo chamber.
Yes, but also that hating a government (or even just decisions of a government) doesn’t extend to hating people across the globe who identify with the same religion that government is using to oppress people.
I think that’s a question that every Jewish person would have a different answer to.
For me, I’m an Atheist Jew; but religion is more than blind faith, it contains culture, values, and yes peoplehood. I like being part of a small and tight community, sharing ethical discussions and rituals with those in it.
Like most similar questions, yours comes down to semantics. How do you define religion? A people? My concern with questions like that is it can be interpreted by some maliciously. E.g. They’re not a religion like us, they’re a race and we must exterminate them.
If I have one message to give to the secular American people, it’s that the world is not divided into countries. The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don’t know each other, but we talk together and we understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same. - Marjane Satrapi
If only people could understand the basic concept that hating a government is possible without hating the people living there.
Exactly. Hamas is a monstrous organization based on the most corrupted religious fundamentalism, but I have nothing but love for the people of Gaza.
Reminder that Hamas is widely supported by most Palestinians
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
First of all I really wouldn’t put much weight on the voting results in an area where Hamas uses violence for decades to keep in power. Especially if there isn’t any semblance of a modern democratic state such as regular(!!) elections, freedom of speech and a free press. A 1-2 generation long youth indoctrination like the Nazis did also really doesn’t create an educated and politically mature population.
And of course 53% still leaves a huge amount of people who aren’t in favour. Not to mention that there is a 70+ year long ongoing conflict which has left pretty much no one in Gaza (or Israel for that matter) who doesn’t know someone getting hurt or killed by the opposing side’s actions. It’s hardly surprising that there’s hard feeling (major understatement) in a lot of people.
And lastly we certainly wouldn’t want to use public opinion as justification for killing civilians. That’s the reasoning the likes of Osama bin Laden do to justify shit like 9/11.
TL;DR: This conflict is complicated as hell and basically a self fueling cycle of hatred where even the good side is acting very shitty a lot of times.
whatever do you mean by “the good side”? there is no good side.
This.
maybe it’s not complicated. All groups who fight oppressors have been labelled as violent extremists. so perhaps it’s actually quite simple.
This conflict is anything but simple. Nearly a century of bloody violence by both sides seldom makes for a clear good vs evil conflict. The fact that Hamas still is the worse autocratic despotic ruler when compared to the hardliner wanna be authoritarians of Netanyahu’s party proves that. Fighting back against oppression doesn’t absolve you from the human duty of compassion and when you indiscriminately kill civilians your fight isn’t justice anymore but just another crime against humanity!
Maybe back when the Zionist militants/terrorist first started to wage their war to get their own country one could have pointed at one side as the good one. But since then both sides have committed countless atrocities. The only thing for sure is that neither kids deserve to grow up in such an environment and to be raised to continue the fight for another generation.
Seems like the Palestinians want the right to return to their homes and communities and Israel just can’t find a way to give a damn.
Because they feel that trying to reason with Israel has zero effect.
Statistics without context are worse than lies.
I think he was referring to Israel?
The ol Lemmy switcheroo.
Hold my pita and hamas, I’m goin in!
I don’t think so. Hamas makes way more sense
Yes, exactly. It’s worth noting though, that many good people are brought into these regimes, and are folded into the hate by their leaders, and the hate they receive from the extremists that oppose them. Not only do terrorists and gangs harm those they seek to harm, but they also grow and root their evil into the normal and healthy communities they base themselves in. Both Hamas and Israel are poisoning their own people more than those they directly kill.
I know, right? Don’t they know reality is a zero sum game?
Horrific acts done against a group of people cancel out the horrific acts they do. As long as the other side is “worse” you can torture, murder, and rape all you want – it’s totally justified. Especially if you indiscriminately target defensless civilian populations for your “revenge”.
You are morally obliged to shoot and kill people who are invading your country. The fact that includes civilians is not the fault of Hamas. Just a thought: if you don’t want to get killed in a war maybe don’t kick out the inhabitants to move into an active war zone??
And yes, it’s an active war zone. Even the EU calls them what they are: an illegal occupation. You are passively supporting ethnic genocide.
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Israel has targeted health centers and large apartment blocks as reprisals. they threated to punish the whole population by switching off electricity.
why are they even in control of the electricity?
why are they allowing settlers to create illegal settlements?
Glad you asked why Israel is in control of the electricity. They are in control of the power because Fatah/PLO pocketed millions (perhaps billions) of dollars worth of Israeli and international aid specifically earmarked for building power and water plants. In other words, Israel provides power because otherwise there would be no power, because Arafat and his minions were corrupt.
why is that Israel’s concern? Just divest from the area and let them get on with it.
It’s difficult of course with all the illegal Israeli settlements taking land from people and cutting up the already small area of land.
not sure why you conflate women and children seeking asylum as invaders. that’s embarrassing.
lemee speedrunning their defederation
Can you only think in terms of groups? Believe it or not, I did not join lemm.ee because of my politics or whatever, I just like the name.
Interesting that your first response to an opinion you don’t agree with is a call for defederation. Ignoring the opinions and ideas of people you disagree with puts you in an echo chamber.
Look at thier comment history. Defederating is their go to response for everything
Shot back a few times? You haven’t been watching the news, have you
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why can’t we all just live in my peace and tranquility.
Palestine has been trying peace for well over a decade. Israel doesn’t care. They like the violence and they benefit from the violence.
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my comment was meant to be sarcastic. it’s easy for the oppressors to wonder why the oppressed won’t just roll over and take the boot.
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Israel does though
Yes, but also that hating a government (or even just decisions of a government) doesn’t extend to hating people across the globe who identify with the same religion that government is using to oppress people.
(American Jew who hates what Israel is doing)
Is being a Jew more being a people or being a part of a religion?
I think that’s a question that every Jewish person would have a different answer to. For me, I’m an Atheist Jew; but religion is more than blind faith, it contains culture, values, and yes peoplehood. I like being part of a small and tight community, sharing ethical discussions and rituals with those in it.
Like most similar questions, yours comes down to semantics. How do you define religion? A people? My concern with questions like that is it can be interpreted by some maliciously. E.g. They’re not a religion like us, they’re a race and we must exterminate them.
One of my favorite quotes:
Different situation, same idea.
I mean, look at the United States
Israel claims to be a democracy and also commits genocide.
Democracy and genocide are separate
Israel is by definition obviously not committing genocide, the Palestinians population is only going up
Russians understand. Belorusians too.
Original comment has 3 downvotes, mine 9. “It’s different” it seems.