TBF, I can’t argue with that, but when we look at where the issue lays, it’s clear which we should prioritise. Just talking personal responsibility harder also doesn’t do much about the rest of your country, let alone the world.
Sure. Change your own scope that you control, and simultaneously work to change the system. But there is more than one system. Not just government systems. But also mental/social systems, for instance the meme that individual actions don’t amount to much. Imagine if everyone started believing their individual actions mattered.
You’re basically saying that human culture doesn’t exist. We can foster a culture around sustainability, just like we have previously fostered a culture around greed and excess. Apathy and trying to minimize nudges towards sustainability only support the status quo.
Go for it - foster a culture of sustainability. That’s not a bad thing, it’s just inadequate.
Do you think that’ll deliver the change we need, dramatically shifting the behaviour of corporations and billions of people before we’re out of time, or do you think that pushing those that set the rules of our society to force/motivate the corporations might do a more effective job?
You’re talking about fundamentally breaking capitalism, which I’m all for, but to imagine that those holding the wealth, and by extension, the power will be influenced to abandon the profit motive by some flowery language rather than pushing back against you to the greatest extent possible is magical thinking. You need the greater power of the government to force that change on them.
Anything but individual action is magic and flowery language. A system, a group, a corporation, an institution is made of individuals. How does ANY action start if not initiated by individuals? I will concede that cleaning up your own behavior may not move the needle much, but changing “the system” still requires individuals to take actions. What are you waiting for? Some magical hive mind to fix things?
Seems like we’re stuck in a loop here then. I think you need an engaged populace first to build momentum around political and societal solutions. Which society do you think will force the government to actually solve the problem - a bunch of soft apathetic people blaming everyone else, or a society that at its core actually values sustainability and lives it on a personal level? Pretty sure you know the answer.
I actually think we broadly agree - my point is that the answer isn’t to just recycle harder at the individual level, or even to get members of your community to do the same (though it’s certainly a good thing to do) - the real change comes from the push for systemic change that’ll affect both the populace broadly, and corporations. Yes - the most effective way to do that is to build a community of people that are all pushing in the same direction - lobbying for policy/party changes in government, pushing companies to be better, etc.
Again, my views are a product of looking where the biggest contributions to the problem come from, and the changes where we can move the needle the most. A bunch of individuals changing is good, a bunch of individuals changing the government to change the whole state/country/corporate regulations is far better.
and those induviduals dont shape the structutres they inhabit that are causing these issues, they are born into them and compliance to these structures is enforced ideologically and through force and prison.
TBF, I can’t argue with that, but when we look at where the issue lays, it’s clear which we should prioritise. Just talking personal responsibility harder also doesn’t do much about the rest of your country, let alone the world.
What are countries and the world but a large group of individuals
Groups of people and organisations that submit to the power of a government that sets the rules for that group of people.
Change the rules, change the behaviour for the large group of individuals and the companies doing the lions share of the damage.
Change your behaviour, change the behaviour of one individual.
Sure. Change your own scope that you control, and simultaneously work to change the system. But there is more than one system. Not just government systems. But also mental/social systems, for instance the meme that individual actions don’t amount to much. Imagine if everyone started believing their individual actions mattered.
Agreed with the caveat that compared to corporate contributions, individual contribution (within reason) is near irrelevant.
You’re basically saying that human culture doesn’t exist. We can foster a culture around sustainability, just like we have previously fostered a culture around greed and excess. Apathy and trying to minimize nudges towards sustainability only support the status quo.
I’m what now?
Go for it - foster a culture of sustainability. That’s not a bad thing, it’s just inadequate.
Do you think that’ll deliver the change we need, dramatically shifting the behaviour of corporations and billions of people before we’re out of time, or do you think that pushing those that set the rules of our society to force/motivate the corporations might do a more effective job?
You’re talking about fundamentally breaking capitalism, which I’m all for, but to imagine that those holding the wealth, and by extension, the power will be influenced to abandon the profit motive by some flowery language rather than pushing back against you to the greatest extent possible is magical thinking. You need the greater power of the government to force that change on them.
Anything but individual action is magic and flowery language. A system, a group, a corporation, an institution is made of individuals. How does ANY action start if not initiated by individuals? I will concede that cleaning up your own behavior may not move the needle much, but changing “the system” still requires individuals to take actions. What are you waiting for? Some magical hive mind to fix things?
Do you honestly think that wasn’t implied in me advocating for government action? If this is what you’re clinging to, you’re lost.
Seems like we’re stuck in a loop here then. I think you need an engaged populace first to build momentum around political and societal solutions. Which society do you think will force the government to actually solve the problem - a bunch of soft apathetic people blaming everyone else, or a society that at its core actually values sustainability and lives it on a personal level? Pretty sure you know the answer.
I actually think we broadly agree - my point is that the answer isn’t to just recycle harder at the individual level, or even to get members of your community to do the same (though it’s certainly a good thing to do) - the real change comes from the push for systemic change that’ll affect both the populace broadly, and corporations. Yes - the most effective way to do that is to build a community of people that are all pushing in the same direction - lobbying for policy/party changes in government, pushing companies to be better, etc.
Again, my views are a product of looking where the biggest contributions to the problem come from, and the changes where we can move the needle the most. A bunch of individuals changing is good, a bunch of individuals changing the government to change the whole state/country/corporate regulations is far better.
and those induviduals dont shape the structutres they inhabit that are causing these issues, they are born into them and compliance to these structures is enforced ideologically and through force and prison.