As you have all noticed, this seems to be a point of contention here. This is a good thing, since it means someone will learn something.
Now we seem to be all over the place, with this general area of thought, provoking many questions. Whether or not PatSocs are socially conservative, what is position on social conservatism? Many of us are very young, both in age and ML experience, so an online discussion would be a great learning tool.
- Are socially conservative individuals allowed to be apart of the leftist movement?
- A. Are socially conservative individuals victims of bourgeois propaganda?
-B. If socially conservative people are turned away by the left, where do they go?
-C. How high of a position would a social conservative be allowed in a ML party?
-D. How has or will MLs educate socially conservative folk?
-E. &tc, &tc.
- What exactly is Patriotism?
-A. Does patriotism depend on culture?
-B Is possible for a distinction between patriotism for a country and wanting to abolish the state?
-C. Is patriotism corrupted in the Core?
-D How have post imperialist countries with Communist experiments built patriotism?
-E. &Tc &TC
- Who even are the PatSocs?
-A. If the label is too convuluted, should we make a distinction between Maupin and American exceptionalists?
-B. Who of the leaders do we consider MLs?
-C. Should patriotic socialist be distinct from socialism or is inherent in socialism?
-D. How much do WE even know if PatSocs?
-E. &Tc, &tc
We can look at the USSR and GDR for these questions. Remember the Hammer and Sickel came from somewhere.
Things to look out for about the US:
-It is the imperialist power, AND a settler state.
-Low levels of cultural development
-The culture that is there is taken from marginalized groups.
-Americas are the most propagandized people in the World.
-It is huge and incredibly diverse
More questions about the US could follow:
-Should the US be balkanized? If so how does patriotism be built in balkanized regions?
-How does land back go about? Will indigenous countries emerge, and if so should we reconsider American MLs as different MLs for the Regions in North America.
-If we see different nations and regions in North America how does that affect culture? Is the question of how we view the land a prerequisite to discussing patriotism, is it contradictory to call yourself an American Patriot if you decide to divide up the land until regions?
There is so much potential for deep political for North American based Comrades, this is a rabbit hole I do want to delve into. I’ll cross post this to GZD but I want it mainly on Leftist Infighting.
Edit: spacing issues
What exactly do you mean? Nations in general?
I mean sure YOU can find that nostalgic and pretty much outdated, but I don’t think the rest of the World is quite up YOUR speed.
I mean humanity exists in Nature, and has risen from somewhere, and will continue to exist somewhere. Based on different geographies and climates (material conditions) life has developed different features. People who are in the same area, overtime, will come together to form a similar communication system. Also the different slight adaptations they have will solidft the more they reproduce. People in these groupings will also have around them similar means of sustainability, I e food products that have adapted to their similar region, you wouldnt see American Bison being eaten in Vietnam. To make an analogy to a zoo is odd, since this a natural development of societies.
This was all well and good until Feudalism started dying off and Capitalism came along. When Europeans started colonizing that’s when Nations really come into importance. Before you could have Romans and the Chinese trade and at least respect each other’s culture. But for in the name of “Britain” or “Spain” or what have you, European nationalism started taking down and tearing apart cultures of what is now known of the general periphery. The Anglos specifically succeeded in this, by almost wiping out entire races and stealing all of their homes. And that I have just mentioned, they used Race science to justify it! Not even nations or common demographics but entire Continents! Now instead of race science Capitalist Propaganda tells children in the Global South to consume and confirm to American life.
Instead of using the interconnected world system to realize eachother differences and come together, we have intensified them to there extremes. The periphery’s nations (not exactly the borders, I consider Lat Am and the Arab world unjustly split) and the colonized nations to be, must be preserved.
You saying you don’t believe in soil centric ideologies and that they are nostalgic and pretty outdated, is the Anarchism of the National Question!
Sorry got sassy at the end, so let me restate what I mean.
We all want to have humanity under one banner and that’s not happening time soon, so it is very Non Marxist to ignore Historical and Material realities like Nations and common demographics.
there are endemic species adapt to certain environments and then there is humans and migratory species, who by nature do not know borders. the rest is all social construct by people jealous of each others fiefdoms. i do believe in federalisation of ubuntu communities, and i do accept a certain degree of localisation. But you’re not gonna get me with “blood & soil” bs… The principle and ends will be the same, the means may differ, so in the end the only barrier to you doing whatever you do somewhere else (if you so wish) would be that of language, local traditions/cuisine (and maybe local differences in communication protocols).
the rest is the same. people work. follow dreams, love, shit, eat, play, have kids, educate themselves, enjoy and suffer and hope everything will turn out fine and then eventually they die. and that is what a society of any size should be concerned with first and foremost. And it is not really much dependent of the color of the rag you associate with a given piece of soil…